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Students. You have nothing to worry about. Watch

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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    I'm getting tired of seeing and hearing about these tuition fee cuts and student protests.

    THERE ARE BIGGER THINGS GOING ON IN THE WORLD

    Yes. There are.

    Ok. Granted that this is a student forum, but look:

    You won't have to pay any of the debt unless when you leave University, you start top earn over £21,000 per annum.

    It's not that bad. How many of these students are going to be earning that amount when they find that upon leaving their education they'll be tossing burgers at a fast food chain, pulling pints at the local, or sat behind a till in T.J.Hughes? Or even unemployed?

    How many?

    Even if you do get that kind of salary, it's only £7 per month. Granted for a long time, but that debt can be written off, apparently.

    WHAT IS THE FUSS ABOUT?

    At this present moment, I find myself unable to eat properly or afford decent clothing, worried about my own debt problems, baliffs turning up at the door, court charges, unable to put the gas on, rent increase next month and I'll have to find somewhere else to live because I can't afford the rent anymore.

    I've not gone to the local council and protested about my rent no longer getting paid in full. I've not phoned British Gas to complain about the rise in fuel prices. I haven't stormed the local supermarket demanding to stop rising food prices.

    Seriously. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.


    The problem is that all those thousands of students at bad uni's and/or doing crappy degree's will have to think about doing a job which does not exist rather then dicking about for 3 to 4 years.
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    (Original post by Don_Lad)
    www.factsonfees.com - read it.
    Just a few points...

    Myth 3 - Unless the new system is designed to collect less in repayments per person than the system (which would seem silly) how can I be not be better off under the old system?

    Myth 4 - How is paying a loan for more than a standard mortgage length (25 years) so it continues until you're 52 or 56-57 in the case of people entering science careers not equivalent to 'forever'?

    Myth 5 - Surely if graduates earn £100,000 more (sic) over their lifetime they pay earn the Treasury £40,000 approx more in tax than a non-graduate?

    Myth 10 - Why would a graduate tax make the poor pay more and the rich less? why would the tax be levied at income above the personal threshold rather than say £38,000?
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    Many people see degrees as a way of boosting employment potential and getting a better life. If someone is in the unfortunate situation that you are in, how are they are going to be able to afford to pay for a degree? It seems like the increase in fees will make it more difficult for more hard up people to do it.
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    What annoys me the most about this is how people care about tuition fees moreso than the fact Lib Dems pretty much went back on their promise they made not to raise tuition fees. Yes they didn't get "get into power" but honestly, such huge support from students came from his stance of No to tuition fees.

    I'm not saying that there is a better alternative out there, I honestly aren't that bothered about the rise. Sure it might mean I pay back more at the end of it, but if I think personally if you're not willing to take that leap of faith and do it, you don't deserve a university education. University is a privilege you work for, not a God given right.

    The same thing will happen with Milliband and Labour promising to "cut the middle class some slack" when we all know if Labour got back in power they wouldn't try and help the middle class at all. Not trying to get at Libs + Labs, I just hate the run up promises that politicians don't keep. I don't want my country tricked by the people in charge, that isn't how democracy should work.

    But all most people care about is paying more for in tuition fees, which to me is a real shame.
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    Does the Coalition plans for tuition fee include private accomodation and other fees - fees outside the tuition?
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    (Original post by Quady)
    So how does that show graduate earnings have fallen?

    Or to put it crudely, how do you know 75% weren't paying anything back in 2003 and now only 25% aren't?
    Sorry, I don't understand where the 25% figure comes from.
    I agree with you that most students will be worse off under the proposed new loan/fees system and that the debt burden will take longer than a mortgage takes to repay.
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    (Original post by Doubledog)
    Sorry, I don't understand where the 25% figure comes from.
    The figure didn't come from anywhere I was just showing how your statistics are piss poor.

    Your Stat: '49% of people since 1998 have not earned enough to start making repayments'

    Made up stats:
    1998 - 75% of people do not earn enough to start making repayments
    2005 - 45% of people do not earn enough to start making repayments
    2010 - 30% of people do not earn enough to start making repayments

    Graduate earnings have increased in the period even though the average is 49%.

    So how does your stats show that graduate earnings are falling?

    Thats all I've asked. For you to show graduate earnings are falling as you asserted they are. So far you've given statistics for everything but that.
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    (Original post by Procrastinate)
    Does the Coalition plans for tuition fee include private accomodation and other fees - fees outside the tuition?
    Yes, these will remain as the current arrangements. Only tuition fees/fee loans are being changed.
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    We're not the only country in recession, yet other countries are putting more money into higher education? Surely investing in the next generation who will become the high tax payers, the teachers, the doctors and nurses of the country would be a good thing?

    Not everyone is at uni to waste 3/4/5/6 years of their lives, some of us are here to better society in the long run.
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    (Original post by Kaykiie)
    We're not the only country in recession, yet other countries are putting more money into higher education? Surely investing in the next generation who will become the high tax payers, the teachers, the doctors and nurses of the country would be a good thing?

    Not everyone is at uni to waste 3/4/5/6 years of their lives, some of us are here to better society in the long run.
    We aren't in recession.

    More money is going into higher education.

    Which other countries are increasing funding for higher education?

    If you're going to uni to better society why do you care about fees? Surely they would only put off someone who was doing it for their own self benefit?
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      (Original post by Kaykiie)
      We're not the only country in recession, yet other countries are putting more money into higher education? Surely investing in the next generation who will become the high tax payers, the teachers, the doctors and nurses of the country would be a good thing?

      Not everyone is at uni to waste 3/4/5/6 years of their lives, some of us are here to better society in the long run.
      And if Labour had their way, the graduate tax would hurt these individuals more, than those who dossed around.
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      (Original post by Quady)
      T

      Your Stat: '49% of people since 1998 have not earned enough to start making repayments'
      It's not "mine". It comes from the Student Loan company.

      I think this answers your question :

      "39% of students in the first repayment cohort (2000) had repaid their loan; this fell off to 20% of the
      2003 cohort and 6% of the 2008 cohort. The likelihood that a borrower was working, but
      earning below the threshold was higher for more recent graduates"
      http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...snsg-01079.pdf
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      (Original post by Quady)
      We aren't in recession.

      More money is going into higher education.

      Which other countries are increasing funding for higher education?

      If you're going to uni to better society why do you care about fees? Surely they would only put off someone who was doing it for their own self benefit?
      The UK's competitors face the same deficit reduction challenges as we do, but they have decided to invest in higher education at this crucial time, not cut it.


      Guardian article

      I understand how the post could have come across as my own personal opinion, I was just playing devil's advocate (except the bit about some of us being here to benefit society rather than doing a degree for the sake of it, but I realise that that doesn't really belong in this thread. That's more of a 'students are all money grabbing idiots' counter argument)

      I personally believe that the system for funding and fees is about right as it is.
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      (Original post by Doubledog)
      It's not "mine". It comes from the Student Loan company.

      I think this answers your question :

      "39% of students in the first repayment cohort (2000) had repaid their loan; this fell off to 20% of the
      2003 cohort and 6% of the 2008 cohort. The likelihood that a borrower was working, but
      earning below the threshold was higher for more recent graduates"
      http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...snsg-01079.pdf
      Close, I think you thought you were providing the right answer but it wasn't.

      Those stats are for the number of poeple who have FULLY repaid the loan, not are making repayments. Hardly suprising the earlier cohorts are more likely to have completed repayment :P

      Page 6
      http://www.slc.co.uk/pdf/SLCOSP032010.pdf

      But That has lead me to a source of info I didn't know existed with the actual data I was looking for.

      Forth column:

      'In UK Tax
      System -
      Above
      Earnings
      Threshold or
      has made a
      Repayment In
      Last Tax Year

      2000 - 23%
      2001 - 30%
      2002 - 40%
      2003 - 45%
      2004 - 48%
      2005 - 50%
      2006 - 49%
      2007 - 47%
      2008 - 40%

      and fifth column:

      In UK Tax
      System But
      Was Below
      The Earnings
      Threshold In
      The Last Tax
      Year

      2000 - 17%
      2001 - 19%
      2002 -16%
      2003 -17%
      2004 - 17%
      2005 - 18%
      2006 - 20%
      2007 - 22%
      2008 - 26%

      Quite complex ststa but very interesting!

      The fully repaid crew need stripping our before anything can be done with the figures really...
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      (Original post by Quady)
      Close, I think you thought you were providing the right answer but it wasn't.

      Those stats are for the number of poeple who have FULLY repaid the loan, not are making repayments. Hardly suprising the earlier cohorts are more likely to have completed repayment :P

      Page 6
      http://www.slc.co.uk/pdf/SLCOSP032010.pdf

      But That has lead me to a source of info I didn't know existed with the actual data I was looking for.

      Forth column:

      'In UK Tax
      System -
      Above
      Earnings
      Threshold or
      has made a
      Repayment In
      Last Tax Year

      2000 - 23%
      2001 - 30%
      2002 - 40%
      2003 - 45%
      2004 - 48%
      2005 - 50%
      2006 - 49%
      2007 - 47%
      2008 - 40%

      and fifth column:

      In UK Tax
      System But
      Was Below
      The Earnings
      Threshold In
      The Last Tax
      Year

      2000 - 17%
      2001 - 19%
      2002 -16%
      2003 -17%
      2004 - 17%
      2005 - 18%
      2006 - 20%
      2007 - 22%
      2008 - 26%

      Quite complex ststa but very interesting!

      The fully repaid crew need stripping our before anything can be done with the figures really...
      I agree that the third set of figures you found support my argument more clearly, but I think that support for it is strongly implied by all the figures I've quoted.
      What I mean is that if they've fully repaid the loan they must have been above the earnings threshold.
      The last set of figures you quote show that in 2000 only 17% of students earning pay were below the earnings threshold but that had increased to 26% by 2008. I would guess that it's much higher than that this year-and also this set of figures don't tell us how many unemployed grads there are.
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      (Original post by Martyn*)
      I'm getting tired of seeing and hearing about these tuition fee cuts and student protests.

      THERE ARE BIGGER THINGS GOING ON IN THE WORLD

      Yes. There are.

      Ok. Granted that this is a student forum, but look:

      You won't have to pay any of the debt unless when you leave University, you start top earn over £21,000 per annum.

      It's not that bad. How many of these students are going to be earning that amount when they find that upon leaving their education they'll be tossing burgers at a fast food chain, pulling pints at the local, or sat behind a till in T.J.Hughes? Or even unemployed?

      How many?

      Even if you do get that kind of salary, it's only £7 per month. Granted for a long time, but that debt can be written off, apparently.

      WHAT IS THE FUSS ABOUT?

      At this present moment, I find myself unable to eat properly or afford decent clothing, worried about my own debt problems, baliffs turning up at the door, court charges, unable to put the gas on, rent increase next month and I'll have to find somewhere else to live because I can't afford the rent anymore.

      I've not gone to the local council and protested about my rent no longer getting paid in full. I've not phoned British Gas to complain about the rise in fuel prices. I haven't stormed the local supermarket demanding to stop rising food prices.

      Seriously. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

      It's more than 7 per month.
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      (Original post by Doubledog)
      I agree that the third set of figures you found support my argument more clearly, but I think that support for it is strongly implied by all the figures I've quoted.
      What I mean is that if they've fully repaid the loan they must have been above the earnings threshold.
      The last set of figures you quote show that in 2000 only 17% of students earning pay were below the earnings threshold but that had increased to 26% by 2008. I would guess that it's much higher than that this year-and also this set of figures don't tell us how many unemployed grads there are.
      You're right it seems sensible to assume everyone who has repaid is currently in jobs over 15k (it will overestimate the number but I don't want to be a pedant).

      Between '00 and '05 the figures are static bar error/natural fluctuation around 17% - ie '01 is 19% and '02 is 16%.

      Then the numbers rise steadily to 22% for '07 as would be expected as extry salaries are lower than salaries after a few years.

      '08 is higher still, but I'm not that confident HMRC have passed on the repayment info for this group (I'm in it and I know they haven't updated SLC about my payments yet!), also they graduated into an economic downturn which wasn't really your point but did impact their average salary.

      Ta for the link, they are great stats.
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        (Original post by jb9191)
        Whilst I agree fully with what you and Quady are saying none of the statistics can judge such things on an individual basis so the person earlier saying degrees are worthless really hasn't a clue as a degree is only as valuable as the person who has obtained it. Whether they put it to good use or not is entirely down to them.

        A degree opens up a whole lot of choices for you in the business world. It makes you more attractive to potential employers but also makes you come across more professional to employers. That's where many graduates do not use their qualification and build upon it to get them that job. They think the certificate alone is enough when quite simply no top employer will go by that unless he has utmost faith in you or can see a lot of potential with you and is willing to assist you. In today's economic climate, the opportunity of getting guided by an employer is few and far between and they would rather hire someone with the proven ability already rather than someone they need to assist. That's when portfolios and own websites of previous work come in.

        Imagine applying for a job as a web designer. What's better than saying in the interview to check out your personal site and to look out the portfolio of works. Not only does it make you look professional but it shows the employer you are capable of building such a site and you are knowledgeable of the scripting/programming languages to build the site. Make it more complicated to show use of other web design related skills. That's what an employer is looking for as well as a degree. That is what will nail you a top job. Even the sites in the portfolio could just be made up ones done in your free time to show use of flash within websites and so on. The number of web design/development related skills are endless. These skills can be used in many different sectors. Its just making sure you get them across to a potential employer. This is where many graduates fail as they apply for jobs with just a certificate and a polish CV. That won't cut it in today's world the majority of the time, you need that something extra.

        So many think university will land them that dream job when in reality you still need to put some hard work in after graduation. A degree can mean a lot for you if you want to start your own business or freelance because a degree along with a portfolio of work will mean customers will have more faith in you and more than likely be more willing to pay you for your services.

        People need to realise a degree never ever guarantees you a job. You only get out of life what you put into it.

        Who would you trust more out of the business cards below?

        (Insert Name) B.Sc - Computer Science
        Web Design & Development Ltd
        Portfolio Of Work Available
        www.(companyname).com
        Number Here

        or

        (Insert Name)
        Web Design & Development Ltd
        www.(companyname).com
        Number Here

        ..

        I know which one I'd prefer to get my website done. The one that not only has the qualifications to prove he is sufficient in getting the work done but he has a portfolio of work to show the level of ability. I'm not saying I wouldn't check out the other businesses website and contact them but on first impressions the top business card definitely appeals more.

        A degree is only a starting block and unless graduates are willing to build on that and use a bit of their own initiative then they are not going to go far in life at all.

        Someone without a degree with a lot of initiative is likely to go further than someone with a degree with little/no initiative.

        A degree just increases your chances and knowledge of the sector you chose, it does not guarantee you job. Obviously, the best combination is having a degree and a lot of initiative to put it to good use as you will have opportunities galore.
        I can't disagree with what you have said here...but would add a reminder that to increase one's job prospects even more because of the plentiful supply of graduates, one needs to aspire to a master's or even a doctorate for occupations that are over-subscribed by applicants. And unless one is fully-funded during these extension degrees, the life-time earnings average is going to be considerably less because of the outlay of monies required to attain so highly.

        It's depressing isn't it, that the deeper one gets into discussion, the more one realises the potential consequences?
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        Sure, it sucks to be paying 5000 more pounds for tuition fees. I rather not pay 15000 pounds in tuition, but I know that if I don't then I won't get the qualifications or jobs I want.

        However, students are going to be much richer than the rest of the society. Therefore I think students should take their fair share. You will be paying a lot more for a house anyway, for instance an average house in London cost 430K pounds.
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        (Original post by Camlon)
        However, students are going to be much richer than the rest of the society. Therefore I think students should take their fair share.
        Surely the UK's progressive tax system does that just fine now?
       
       
       
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