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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    how many kung fu schools do you actually know that you are so confident that none teach ground fighting lol ?
    I know that they do and i also know old fashioned kung fu techniques (armbars,the rubber guard, omaplata as they call it etc in mma) all can be found in kung fu styles which date back to the 10th century - if you ever have seen a guy that has trained in what they call 'monkey' style in china- using ground techniques , it is largely rolling around, eye gouging, choking and limb locking for the most part. Not the same as you would see in jackie chan doing 'drunken monkey style' in movies- but then for most of the dimwits on this thread that will be the max of their exposure to the subject of martial arts.
    Firstly, name one. Name one kungfu school that teaches groundfighting as you have described it.

    Secondly - you just don't get it. You completely fail to understand what it is that separates mainstream Traditional Martial Arts from Combat Sports. It is entirely in the training method.

    Not for one second would I pretend that the majority of BJJ is new. BJJ is a distillation of Judo. Judo is itself a development of Jiu Jitsu. And yes, many Judo techniques can be found in very old scrolls from many centuries back.

    But what made Judo distinct from all that came before was the live training method. This is what made Judo (hence BJJ) an effective martial art.

    The dead (not deadly) training method of TMAs is what makes them ineffective and silly.


    Of course in kung fu you are not jsut simply rolling around for position or holding guard- you are also attemping to cause damage to the opponents vitals or prone areas whilst on the ground, or make use of pressure points that become open on the ground to assit securing an arm bar etc. UFC automatically remove all of that thereby stripping kung fu to jsut another sport-form mma style. To be quite frank a high level kung fu guy will far more likely to try scoop out your eyeball out than roll around for 5 mins trying to lock out your arm if the fight went to the ground, it would be easier and incapacitate you far quicker.

    But in the UFC, all of that would be illegal and quite frankly distasteful for a televised sporting event. So what works in UFC is specifcally watered down combat styles tailored to a competiton environment. Most kung fu styles are i will admit - would be usless in such a competiton envinonment, in answer to your question about the ufc, but then i couldnt give a toss about the ufc in terms of martial arts, because they are two different things.
    This is the MMA vs TMA fallacy that has been comprehensively rebutted by so many people, and demonstrated in practice. It's clear that your mind will not be changed, but the simple question is : how do you know that you can apply all these deadly techniques (such as gouging out someone's eyes) if you have never done it in training?
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    (Original post by Einheri)
    Have you ever rolled with chunners? Flailing and spazzing is apparently an ancient Chinese technique.

    Edit: Perfect shoop for this:



    :teehee:



    lol you spent 20 mins trolling spaz forums for this :confused:? I think you find this isnt even an attempted armbar but someone demonstrating how to break 4th and 5th fingers of this guys hand.
    What does it have to do with wing tsun again lol?
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    I think you find this isnt even an attempted armbar but someone demonstrating how to break 4th and 5th fingers of this guys hand.
    Is this some kind of joke?
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    lol you spent 20 mins trolling spaz forums for this :confused:? I think you find this isnt even an attempted armbar but someone demonstrating how to break 4th and 5th fingers of this guys hand.
    I'm sorry, you think this is an actual technique he's doing? Hahaha! Oh man, you're cracking me up . . . it's someone who thinks he's performing an armbar, but in actuality is an idiot (hmm, reminds me of someone in this thread, haha).

    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    What does it have to do with wing tsun again lol?
    Wing Chunners = useless groundfighters. This guy = useless groundfighter.
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    (Original post by Clip)
    Firstly, name one. Name one kungfu school that teaches groundfighting as you have described it.


    Clearly i already named the style that teaches ground fighting as i described it:confused:
    So any decent school teachin this style will feature ground work-. others like lao gar, mantis etc also i beleive contain techniques like this, although i personally havnet experienced them. Just doing simple grappling techniques kung fu search on google you can find this info out for yourself - like here for example
    http://wn.com/Tai_Chi_Principles_Use...round_Fighting

    see number 5 for example, which is pretty basic principles.

    There isnt a style ( that i know of ) of kung fu that teaches soley groundwork and grappling like judo, wrestling - because that would an illogical martial art - which is suppossed to be an all-rounded defense mechanism. In fact i would suggest the predominant philosphy is to try stay on your feet as long as possible - its unlikley you would be encouraged to allow an opponent to get close enough to engage clinch or ground fighting wherever possible. The other point is probably is trying to pickup and slam someone on the ground is a different proposition practicing on rubber mats to out doors on say, a concrete ground.

    (Original post by Clip)

    Secondly - you just don't get it. You completely fail to understand what it is that separates mainstream Traditional Martial Arts from Combat Sports. It is entirely in the training method.

    Not for one second would I pretend that the majority of BJJ is new. BJJ is a distillation of Judo. Judo is itself a development of Jiu Jitsu. And yes, many Judo techniques can be found in very old scrolls from many centuries back.

    But what made Judo distinct from all that came before was the live training method. This is what made Judo (hence BJJ) an effective martial art.

    And in fact japanese jujitsu almost certainly orignated form the chinese systems that were around centuries before form their roots in buddihist kung fu systems and Bodhidarma etc - its jsut that kung fu practioners chose not to separate the striking techniques from grappling ones as the japanense did with judo. Again way over the heads of the standard mma fan. SO on what basis were you stating that kung fu and ground techniques were mutually exclusive?

    What separates them is in the wording you used - one is a 'Sport' and one isnt.
    And what do you mean by 'live training method"? Do mean 'sparring' because again, pretty much all the styles i ever saw involved full on sparring - if anything traditional kung fu in the olden days was far more brutal than judo became and MMA is becoming- sparring led to irrecoverable injury in regualr cases - Kung fu in most cases is combination style of strikes, impact grips/holds and avoiding damage as oppossed to trying to control your opponent with leaverage and body weight - i guess in chinese martial arts if you are applying the techniques properly a fight should not have got to the close quarters hugging stage. You are not afforded in the luxury of walking up to the face of your sparring partner and wrestling with him for 15 mins on a rubber mat as would evolve in an MMA bout.
    They also train to be physically extremely fit with high core strength- if not as big and heavy as your typical wrestler.

    (Original post by Clip)

    The dead (not deadly) training method of TMAs is what makes them ineffective and silly.


    You can have your opinion if you think TMA is ineffective thats fine. i think i offered one of the other guys on the thread to check out one of the wing tsun shools i had previously been a member, in his vicinity of to try out that theory - he declined. Iknow what various practitioners of various styles are capable of. Generally a ufc fans opinion is formed by hours trawling dimwitted mma web forums, not by first hand experience. So generally i take it with a pinch of salt.

    (Original post by Clip)
    This is the MMA vs TMA fallacy that has been comprehensively rebutted by so many people, and demonstrated in practice. It's clear that your mind will not be changed, but the simple question is : how do you know that you can apply all these deadly techniques (such as gouging out someone's eyes) if you have never done it in training?
    Rebutted by who? There is no MMA vs TMA, because it would be like comparing rubgy to armed conflict - they are two different things. The above isnt a technique that requires a significant amount of strength and yet it is unsuprisingly effective. All that is trained on a regualr basis in terms of the above is accuracy - in the main and knowledge of parts of the body that are going to deliver the most pain. Thats not to say kung fu guys dont spend years on grip strength excercises fingertip body weight pressups etc that would come in handy if they end up one day rolling on the floor with someone. But generally i think they would choose to avoid that situation - on the ground you open up a whole host of vitals and vnerable points that can be attacked - eyes, throat and groin are just the obvious ones. The point of kung fu as with all martial arts is that is a science - ie the principle of defeating an opponent with as little force as is required and so the application of brains over excessive energy expended- (ju jitsu also follows this principle by appying techniques like armbar, triangle etc - but that point is lost on most mma pupils i think) UFC rewards physical fitness over technique and use of your brain by restricting the tools available to competitors - forcing them to adopt the rather clumsly and simplistic style of watered down muaythai/greco/bjj. So to me its pointless, jsut another sporting event.


    (Original post by Clip)
    This is the MMA vs TMA fallacy that has been comprehensively rebutted by so many people, and demonstrated in practice. It's clear that your mind will not be changed, but the simple question is : how do you know that you can apply all these deadly techniques (such as gouging out someone's eyes) if you have never done it in training?
    'deadly' is your word - they arnt necessarrliy suppossed to be- the purpose is to incapacitate through trauma/injury or pain in order to defend from an attack. Although there are some techniques taught that are 'deadly' ( rear naked choke is 'deadly' for example) they would rarely be practiced to lethality - what would be the point?
    Striclty speaking a proper martial art would ntteach you to run head long at someone for a take down MMA wrestler style- unless it was absolutley necessarry (which it rarely is). I have amusingly witnessed a large burly fellow try this once and the other guy casualy sidestep causing his assailant to headbutt a lamp post. A rare example of a ufc guy using his head for you.
    So, I would ask you a simple question- do you not think that if you lay on your back in full BJJ guard, the smart guy on top wont just reach under and grab an impolite handful of your gonads - while you wait in agony (and in vain) for an MMA referee to call foul?? I think you will find yourself out of your comfort zone outside of the octagon lol
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    (Original post by Einheri)
    I'm sorry, you think this is an actual technique he's doing? Hahaha! Oh man, you're cracking me up . . . it's someone who thinks he's performing an armbar, but in actuality is an idiot (hmm, reminds me of someone in this thread, haha).



    Wing Chunners = useless groundfighters. This guy = useless groundfighter.
    oh yes, and why exactly do you think, he thinks hes performing an arm bar? It just looks like a simple wrist lock to me, with some pressure applied on the smaller fingers.
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    (Original post by Clip)
    Is this some kind of joke?
    Why would it be some kind of joke?:confused:
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    So, I would ask you a simple question- do you not think that if you lay on your back in full BJJ guard, the smart guy on top wont just reach under and grab an impolite handful of your gonads - while you wait in agony for an MMA referee to call foul??
    The principle of Martial arts Then thy are dressed up with poetic chinese names like "Monkey steals Peach" which is a polite way of saying your left testicale has jsut been ripped off your body.
    There is so much wrong with everything you have posted, that I just don't know where to begin.

    You cannot have done a single minute's worth of genuine wrestling/groundfighting/grappling - call it what you will - if you think that you can grab someone's testicles whilst you're in the guard.

    Firstly, it is very difficult to do at the best of times. Secondly - what do you think will happen as soon as you reach under someone's leg to try and do that? You've basically just triangled yourself.

    Secondly - the whole point of the guard isn't that you let people in the guard do what they want. When the guy in the guard tries something, that's when the guy pulling the guard makes his attack.

    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Clearly i already named the style that teaches ground fighting as i described it:confused:
    So any decent school teachin this style will feature ground work-. others like lao gar, mantis etc also i beleive contain techniques like this, although i personally havnet experienced them. Just doing simple grappling techniques kung fu search on google you can find this info out for yourself - like here for example
    http://wn.com/Tai_Chi_Principles_Use...round_Fighting

    see number 5 for example, which is pretty basic principles.
    That is specifically not what I asked. I asked you to name a school. Not a style.

    I do not know of a single kungfu school that teaches groundfighting, and I do not believe that there are any that teach it properly.

    You've basically claimed that "any decent" Lau Gar or Mantis school will teach groundfighting. I do not believe this, and I believe that almost any Lau Gar or Mantis student you can find will tell you that they don't.


    There isnt a style ( that i know of ) of kung fu that teaches soley groundwork and grappling like judo, wrestling - because that would an illogical martial art - which is suppossed to be an all-rounded defense mechanism. In fact i would suggest the predominant philosphy is to try stay on your feet as long as possible - its unlikley you would be encouraged to allow an opponent to get close enough to engage clinch or ground fighting wherever possible. The other point is probably is trying to pickup and slam someone on the ground is a different proposition practicing on rubber mats to out doors on say, a concrete ground.
    Anyone who believes that they can stay on their feet is a fool. There's not a lot you can do to avoid a clinch, and once there, you're essentially wrestling anyway.

    I don't understand your point about concrete - it doesn't make sense.


    And in fact japanese jujitsu almost certainly orignated form the chinese systems that were around centuries before form their roots in buddihist kung fu systems and Bodhidarma etc - its jsut that kung fu practioners chose not to separate the striking techniques from grappling ones as the japanense did with judo. Again way over the heads of the standard mma fan. SO on what basis were you stating that kung fu and ground techniques were mutually exclusive?

    What separates them is in the wording you used - one is a 'Sport' and one isnt.
    And what do you mean by 'live training method"? Do mean 'sparring' because again, pretty much all the styles i ever saw involved full on sparring - if anything traditional kung fu in the olden days was far more brutal than judo became and MMA is becoming- sparring led to irrecoverable injury in regualr cases - Kung fu in most cases is combination style of strikes, impact grips/holds and avoiding damage as oppossed to trying to control your opponent with leaverage and body weight - i guess in chinese martial arts if you are applying the techniques properly a fight should not have got to the close quarters hugging stage. You are not afforded in the luxury of walking up to the face of your sparring partner and wrestling with him for 15 mins on a rubber mat as would evolve in an MMA bout.
    They also train to be physically extremely fit with high core strength- if not as big and heavy as your typical wrestler.
    Yet again - you have completely failed to understand in every way.

    I have never said that Kungfu and ground fighting are mutually exclusive. I have no doubt that the JJ scrolls came from China/India.

    What I am saying is that the training methods of (all) traditional martial arts prior to Jigoro Kano were essentially nonsense.

    Sure, Jiu Jitsu had all these ground fighting techniques.

    Sure, Kung Fu styles may have had them.

    But what they didn't have was any intelligent method of training. All they did was have collections of dirty tricks. All these deadly moves (whether standing or not) were pointless, as you couldn't train them.

    If olden days kung fu training was brutal and often resulted in permanent injury - that goes to demonstrate how idiotic they were. What's the point of a martial art that's more dangerous than actual fighting?

    Don't you get it? Don't you get what it was that Kano did when he revolutionised martial arts?


    Rebutted by who? There is no MMA vs TMA, because it would be like comparing rubgy to armed conflict - they are two different things. The above isnt a technique that requires a significant amount of strength and yet it is unsuprisingly effective. All that is trained on a regualr basis in terms of the above is accuracy - in the main and knowledge of parts of the body that are going to deliver the most pain. Thats not to say kung fu guys dont spend years on grip strength excercises fingertip body weight pressups etc that would come in handy if they end up one day rolling on the floor with someone. But generally i think they would choose to avoid that situation - on the ground you open up a whole host of vitals and vnerable points that can be attacked - eyes, throat and groin are just the obvious ones. The point of kung fu as with all martial arts is that is a science - ie the principle of defeating an opponent with as little force as is required and so the application of brains over excessive energy expended- (ju jitsu also follows this principle by appying techniques like armbar, triangle etc - but that point is lost on most mma pupils i think) UFC rewards physical fitness over technique and use of your brain by restricting the tools available to competitors - forcing them to adopt the rather clumsly and simplistic style of watered down muaythai/greco/bjj. So to me its pointless, jsut another sporting event.
    Sport is by far the best training method. Live training for combat sport competition cannot be bettered. You are training against an uncooperative opponent at full power with no restrictions on the techniques (within the system) that you can apply, and there is realistic timing and reaction.

    All these dead systems in TMAs are pointless. Saying that kungfu training methods will make you a good fighter is essentially saying that viewing pornography and masturbating will eventually make you good at sex.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Why would it be some kind of joke?:confused:
    Why on earth would you be in that position to do a wrist lock?

    It's clearly a bad demo of an armbar (or jujigatame or whatever you want to call it)

    If you have someone in that position - why on earth would you be demonstrating a wristlock or SJM?
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    (Original post by Clip)
    Why on earth would you be in that position to do a wrist lock?

    It's clearly a bad demo of an armbar (or jujigatame or whatever you want to call it)

    If you have someone in that position - why on earth would you be demonstrating a wristlock or SJM?
    You can secure an arm lock from most positions you end up if you are offerred, why should it matter in what position you are?
    Hes clearly got the guys arm the wrong way round to apply an arm bar, hence why he has the wrists locked out to one side.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    You can secure an arm lock from most positions you end up if you are offerred, why should it matter in what position you are?
    Hes clearly got the guys arm the wrong way round to apply an arm bar, hence why he has the wrists locked out to one side.
    Makes no sense.

    How do you "end up" in an arm bar position like that?

    If the guys arm is the wrong way around - get it in the right position - you're already 99% of the way there.

    This whole situation is so obvious to anyone with any sense - except you. Anyone with any experience knows exactly what it is - but you refuse to believe it, and are inventing fantasies to support your crazy ideas.
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    (Original post by Clip)
    There is so much wrong with everything you have posted, that I just don't know where to begin.

    Firstly, it is very difficult to do at the best of times. Secondly - what do you think will happen as soon as you reach under someone's leg to try and do that? You've basically just triangled yourself.

    Secondly - the whole point of the guard isn't that you let people in the guard do what they want. When the guy in the guard tries something, that's when the guy pulling the guard makes his attack.

    You cannot have done a single minute's worth of genuine wrestling/groundfighting/grappling - call it what you will - if you think that you can grab someone's testicles whilst you're in the guard.
    .
    Ask your BJJ teacher - it is done in sparring quite often to distract the guy on the bottom-but it is not allowed in proper competition.
    Firatly you dont have to raise your body up and offer a triangle to your oponnent nor do they have to try reach under any leg, while your opponent is lieing prone:confused:- i dont know waht on earth you are talking about - anybody reasonably flexible can reach for a grab while staying flat and low in someones guard

    And secondly the guy in guard is looking for a handle to attack which is usually for the purpose of an arm,shoulder lock or choke like a triangle. There is no way of stopping someone strikeing to your groin when lieing prone in guard - it would happen faster than you could move the rest of your body lol.


    (Original post by Clip)

    That is specifically not what I asked. I asked you to name a school. Not a style.

    I do not know of a single kungfu school that teaches groundfighting, and I do not believe that there are any that teach it properly.

    You've basically claimed that "any decent" Lau Gar or Mantis school will teach groundfighting. I do not believe this, and I believe that almost any Lau Gar or Mantis student you can find will tell you that they don't. .



    I could name any decent schools of these styles in the uk like i said and they will teach ground techniques - i doubt you will have heard of them. I have witnessed ground techniques being practiced, rolled with a few guys in JJ and even gave you a clip of a school in which they were being practiced. Equally you can google those styles and see the names of your nearest schools. If you still dont beleive this to be the case, theres not much i can do about it, short of you suggesting you go to all the schools in the uk and asking them face to face.

    (Original post by Clip)

    Anyone who believes that they can stay on their feet is a fool. There's not a lot you can do to avoid a clinch, and once there, you're essentially wrestling anyway.

    I don't understand your point about concrete - it doesn't make sense. .


    Oh yes, is that right?

    I think ina normal environment, if you were reasonably quick, motivated and well drilled you could stay on your feet for as long as you wanted. If you were locked in a cage, barefoot, standing on a sweaty slippery mat, it might be a little more difficult, but then there were a few ufc fighters of old i could remember that made a habit of that too, chuck lidell for one.
    In reality you try running headlong at people that know what they are doing in an open in environment and see how far it gets you - you would probably be avoided and then get a few kicks to the skull for your trouble whilst on your knees. Hence why most proper martial artist dont opt for this rather dimwitted approach made popular by the ufc.


    (Original post by Clip)
    Yet again - you have completely failed to understand in every way.

    I have never said that Kungfu and ground fighting are mutually exclusive. I have no doubt that the JJ scrolls came from China/India.

    What I am saying is that the training methods of (all) traditional martial arts prior to Jigoro Kano were essentially nonsense.

    Sure, Jiu Jitsu had all these ground fighting techniques.

    Sure, Kung Fu styles may have had them.

    But what they didn't have was any intelligent method of training. All they did was have collections of dirty tricks. All these deadly moves (whether standing or not) were pointless, as you couldn't train them.

    If olden days kung fu training was brutal and often resulted in permanent injury - that goes to demonstrate how idiotic they were. What's the point of a martial art that's more dangerous than actual fighting?

    Don't you get it? Don't you get what it was that Kano did when he revolutionised martial arts?
    Sport is by far the best training method. Live training for combat sport competition cannot be bettered. You are training against an uncooperative opponent at full power with no restrictions on the techniques (within the system) that you can apply, and there is realistic timing and reaction.

    All these dead systems in TMAs are pointless. Saying that kungfu training methods will make you a good fighter is essentially saying that viewing pornography and masturbating will eventually make you good at sex.


    Kano introduced Judo as a system to be taught to school kids and as a competition sport - as a presursor to its introduction in the olympics. He trained it as a sport, not a martial art. older martial arts were (originally) trained as a system to defend one self againast armed and unarmed attackers (pre-firearms) They were employed by amoung others, soliders, bodyguards, mercenaries who relied upon those systems to keep themselves alive and away from harm. They would have lasted less than 30 seconds in any encounter if they relied soley on grappling techniques.

    They trained hard and aggressivley in order to build muscle memory, but also to memorise techniques that would save their lives. If they didnt have an 'intelligent method of training' how on earth did their systems survive for so long :rolleyes: You can wander into a kung fu school and examine whether or not they are just going through the motions or have an ability to apply the techniques they train, im just saying. Competiton is for the ego not self preservation. How many talented martial artists around the globe would brag about the damage they have caused to various people in the course of defending themselves? Not many i would guess - unless they were particualrly nasty characters. Why would they need to chase a metal plated belt to justify a system they have spent their life perfecting?

    You are not training against an 'uncooperative opponent' you simply learning parrot fashion the best way of operating within the parameters of organised competiton - ie playing a sport. Martial arts were never designed for such- their purpose as stated numerous times is to keep you in the best shape in the face of real time aggression- in which case there really are few restrictions as to what someone can do to defend themselves (the law in mind of course). So sport training is not goign to replicate or address this situation. I dont really see why you think there is no practical application of techniques in MA training - there is plenty and there is relatively unrestricted sparring too. You rarely get a chance to see that in a movie, very few decent teachers wil publisise guarded techniques on youtube, and im not about to go into any significnat detail here. I know this is the opposite to UFC fighting styles where there are billion forums, clips and tv shows for idiot fans to debate over.

    If i was going to compete in a sport, yes i would focuss on sports techniques and fitness - which is what works in the ufc. Those principles dont apply entirely to martial arts though.
    But then if i were interested in sport and earning cash, i would perfect golf instead.
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    (Original post by Clip)
    Makes no sense.

    How do you "end up" in an arm bar position like that?

    If the guys arm is the wrong way around - get it in the right position - you're already 99% of the way there.

    This whole situation is so obvious to anyone with any sense - except you. Anyone with any experience knows exactly what it is - but you refuse to believe it, and are inventing fantasies to support your crazy ideas.
    The moron earlier pulled a photoshopped jpeg from a web forum saying "duuuh dats not da proper way for da arm bar"

    I said how do you know hes trying to do an arm bar. And what does it have to do with any thing?
    why do you say he needs to roll to an arm bar when hes in full control with a much simpler wrist lock? ufc maybe about scoring an arm bar, but martial arts is about defending yourself. Maybe thats what the guys demonstrating and not showing bjj bias, ever thought of that? From that position theres actually numerous things i could thnik of that are far simpler than an arm bar and would end any sort of resistance in seconds.



    Some dimwits didnt know there was life outside of bjj and didnt know there was life outside of wwe till ufc came along
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    There's only one way to find out which is the better martial art.......
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    (Original post by Gridiron-Gangster)
    There's only one way to find out which is the better martial art.......
    please dont say ufc...
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    please dont say ufc...
    UFC is for morons. More respect for WWE than UFC. But yeah some sort of one on one combat is on the cards to settle this debate me thinks.
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    (Original post by Gridiron-Gangster)
    UFC is for morons. More respect for WWE than UFC. But yeah some sort of one on one combat is on the cards to settle this debate me thinks.
    There have already been stacks of vale tudo fights in brazil as well as japan which are effectvly no rule restriction apart from being no-gi events. But then you have no assurance that the best guys of the respective styles are competing. The ability of each practioner is by far the most important determinant in a contest.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Ask your BJJ teacher - it is done in sparring quite often to distract the guy on the bottom-but it is not allowed in proper competition.
    Grabbing for someone's balls is not "quite often done in sparring". By anyone with any knowledge of groundfighting it is not done at all - when you reach down you're getting triangled, simple.

    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Firatly you dont have to raise your body up and offer a triangle to your oponnent nor do they have to try reach under any leg, while your opponent is lieing prone:confused:- i dont know waht on earth you are talking about - anybody reasonably flexible can reach for a grab while staying flat and low in someones guard

    And secondly the guy in guard is looking for a handle to attack which is usually for the purpose of an arm,shoulder lock or choke like a triangle. There is no way of stopping someone strikeing to your groin when lieing prone in guard - it would happen faster than you could move the rest of your body lol.
    Maybe you'll listen to Vinicius "Draculino" Magalhaes who knows more infinitely about guard fighting than anyone on this thread.:



    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    I think ina normal environment, if you were reasonably quick, motivated and well drilled you could stay on your feet for as long as you wanted. If you were locked in a cage, barefoot, standing on a sweaty slippery mat, it might be a little more difficult, but then there were a few ufc fighters of old i could remember that made a habit of that too, chuck lidell for one.
    In reality you try running headlong at people that know what they are doing in an open in environment and see how far it gets you - you would probably be avoided and then get a few kicks to the skull for your trouble whilst on your knees. Hence why most proper martial artist dont opt for this rather dimwitted approach made popular by the ufc.
    In an ideal world you'd finish the fight with a throw and be done with it. But fights don't always go as you want them to - that's why we train groundfighting.

    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Kano introduced Judo as a system to be taught to school kids and as a competition sport - as a presursor to its introduction in the olympics. He trained it as a sport, not a martial art. older martial arts were (originally) trained as a system to defend one self againast armed and unarmed attackers (pre-firearms) They were employed by amoung others, soliders, bodyguards, mercenaries who relied upon those systems to keep themselves alive and away from harm. They would have lasted less than 30 seconds in any encounter if they relied soley on grappling techniques.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Kano Jigoro

    Sounds like a martial art to me.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    The moron earlier pulled a photoshopped jpeg from a web forum saying "duuuh dats not da proper way for da arm bar"

    I said how do you know hes trying to do an arm bar. And what does it have to do with any thing?
    why do you say he needs to roll to an arm bar when hes in full control with a much simpler wrist lock? ufc maybe about scoring an arm bar, but martial arts is about defending yourself. Maybe thats what the guys demonstrating and not showing bjj bias, ever thought of that? From that position theres actually numerous things i could thnik of that are far simpler than an arm bar and would end any sort of resistance in seconds.

    Some dimwits didnt know there was life outside of bjj and didnt know there was life outside of wwe till ufc came along
    That position is ridiculous - you would never get there in a fight. If somehow you did you'd go for the omoplata or try to take the back not piss around with the guy's fingers. All the bottom guy would have to do is hug the attackers leg, get to his knees, stack and pass into side-control - this position is bull, which is why it is not taught. :rolleyes: You can tell by the way he's angling himself, the position of his legs and with the arm extended that he thinks he's doing an armbar.
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    (Original post by Einheri)
    That position is ridiculous - you would never get there in a fight. If somehow you did you'd go for the omoplata or try to take the back not piss around with the guy's fingers. All the bottom guy would have to do is hug the attackers leg, get to his knees, stack and pass into side-control - this position is bull, which is why it is not taught. :rolleyes: You can tell by the way he's angling himself, the position of his legs and with the arm extended that he thinks he's doing an armbar.
    Is that before or after he finished laughing? >_>
 
 
 
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