Adam83
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#181
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#181
im absurd for not discussing torturing people, is that what you are saying?
what sort of torture should we discuss. forced sex? burning people alive? letting attack dogs loose on them?
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Lawz-
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#182
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#182
(Original post by Adam83)
im absurd for not discussing torturing people, is that what you are saying?
what sort of torture should we discuss. forced sex? burning people alive? letting attack dogs loose on them?
Have you even bothered to read the thread?

Do you even know what people are referring to?

Jumping into a debate and throwing out emotive slurs without even knowing what is at issue is, yes, absurd.
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Adam83
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#183
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#183
lol
i suppose real torture is ok because they had it in 24
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Lawz-
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#184
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#184
(Original post by Lawz-)
Or would you prefer to continue to look absurd?
(Original post by Adam83)
lol
i suppose real torture is ok because they had it in 24
Ok so thats a yes then?

Look - read this:

(Original post by Lawz-)
Ok... lets try this:

You arrest John.

You suspect John has planted a nuclear bomb so large, that it will cause nuclear holocaust around the glob, and kill ALL living organisms on the planet, leaving it a desolate wasteland and thus ending billions of years of evolution.

John tells you openly that he DID plant the bomb. However he refuses to tell you where.

John however has a very low threshold for pain.

You have two choices:

A: Jail john and await the destruction of all mankind
B: Cause John physial pain in order to extract the necessary information, and in true 007 style, save the planet.


You would choose A?
No you are telling me that someone who chooses B, and saves all mankind is a "little hitler" as you put it?
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Adam83
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#185
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#185
But does that mean we should make torture legal?
Thats an extreme theoretical unrealisitc '24' type scenario, so just because of that should we make torture legal in real life.
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Lawz-
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#186
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#186
(Original post by Adam83)
But does that mean we should make torture legal?
Thats an extreme theoretical unrealisitc '24' type scenario, so just because of that should we make torture legal in real life.
If you actually read through the majority of the posts, they are actually addressing the moral scenario rather than a question of changing the law.
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Adam83
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#187
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#187
ok, two questions

1. should we allow our military to use torture as legitimate method of extracting info?

2. would you be ok with torture in the situation the thread starter raises?
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Lawz-
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#188
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#188
(Original post by Adam83)
1. should we allow our military to use torture as legitimate method of extracting info?
As a general rule no.

(Original post by Adam83)
2. would you be ok with torture in the situation the thread starter raises?
As a general rule no. If the effect of it were limited to that situation, I would have no problem with it in principle, so long as the harm visited on them wasnt too great.

For instance, sleep deprivation may be seen as torture... I might not have a problem with that.

However because one cant make rules for specific instances, no... I wouldnt allow it.
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naivesincerity
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#189
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#189
(Original post by Lawz-)
For instance, sleep deprivation may be seen as torture... I might not have a problem with that.
.
It leads to psychosis and eventually death
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Adam83
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#190
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#190
It goes on anyway. They were torturing Milosevic and i bet they are giving Sadam a hard time.
But if they start saying, hey, torture is usefull we should allow it like they have done in the US, I will be fully against it.
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goodLife
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#191
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#191
(Original post by Lawz-)
Ok so thats a yes then?

Look - read this:



No you are telling me that someone who chooses B, and saves all mankind is a "little hitler" as you put it?
Lol that didn't mean a thing, you can think of a situation like that to argue for anything to be legal!
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Jangliss
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#192
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#192
This is one of those things in which we should legislate for the best result: i.e. totally outlaw it. On a statistical basis for one thing: (http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=171)

If things come to it, someone might break the rules once to save the world but that would be the extreme exception, "comparable" to breaking the speed limits to get a dying person to hospital.
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cottonmouth
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#193
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#193
So basically, most people are of the conclusion that torture is immoal, and should remain illegal here. Whcih is all i argued for the whole time. It isn't morally right to torture. Obviously, when put in a clearly pathetic situation whee the world would be blown up, you'd do anything to save it.

Let me ask a question. Say the situation Lawz gave was still standing, but the person in question was your mother. Then what would people do?
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cottonmouth
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#194
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#194
(Original post by Jangliss)
This is one of those things in which we should legislate for the best result: i.e. totally outlaw it. On a statistical basis for one thing: (http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=171)

If things come to it, someone might break the rules once to save the world but that would be the extreme exception, "comparable" to breaking the speed limits to get a dying person to hospital.
I like your blog! I should join your socialist society, but i can never be bothered with societies i=on this thing. I'm trying to wean myself off this website before i start uni, or i think i'd fail my degree.
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goodLife
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#195
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#195
(Original post by cottonmouth)
So basically, most people are of the conclusion that torture is immoal, and should remain illegal here. Whcih is all i argued for the whole time. It isn't morally right to torture. Obviously, when put in a clearly pathetic situation whee the world would be blown up, you'd do anything to save it.

Let me ask a question. Say the situation Lawz gave was still standing, but the person in question was your mother. Then what would people do?
Id be really tempted to say torture them to save someone close, its only natural. It doesn't mean that it should be made legal though. Why can't we just do what Jangliss said and only use it in extreme cases.
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cottonmouth
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#196
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#196
(Original post by goodLife)
Id be really tempted to say torture them to save someone close, its only natural. It doesn't mean that it should be made legal though. Why can't we just do what Jangliss said and only use it in extreme cases.
Because it is still immoral, thats why. You really want torture to be made legal for "certain circumstances"? You show a lot of trust for the establishment by the way. Putting torture on the statutes, allowing people such as Charles Clarke, or even worse, someone like Hazel Blears potentially, or policemen, to make decisions on whether someone should be tortured or not? No thankyou!

All laws get abused by people in power. Torture would be abused to. Ha. Torture tortured.
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naivesincerity
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#197
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#197
(Original post by cottonmouth)
I like your blog! I should join your socialist society, but i can never be bothered with societies i=on this thing. I'm trying to wean myself off this website before i start uni, or i think i'd fail my degree.
Well start weaning, 'cos TSR's more addictive than smack
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cottonmouth
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#198
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#198
(Original post by goodLife)
Id be really tempted to say torture them to save someone close, its only natural. It doesn't mean that it should be made legal though. Why can't we just do what Jangliss said and only use it in extreme cases.

So your answer to my "Let me ask a question" is that you would torture your mother to save someone else? Or were you ingnoring my question? Sorry, i'm not being aggressive, i'm just not sure.
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cottonmouth
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#199
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#199
(Original post by naivesincerity)
Well start weaning, 'cos TSR's more addictive than smack

It really is! Especially i the holidays! I suppose people rationalise being on here so much by saying it bulks up their debatig skills, etc. But really, people just love an almighty row, knowing they won't be hed to account for their views in the "real world". You can say what you please on here, with no repurcussions, cus even if you sound dumb, noone knows you anyway. I just feel a bit sad about those who join, then get really serious about it, and treat it as some kind of alternative life. Which is why i don't join any societies- you would get sucked in and it'd become the typing equivalent of, as you say, smack. Glad to see you're back though!
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naivesincerity
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#200
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#200
(Original post by cottonmouth)
It really is! Especially i the holidays! I suppose people rationalise being on here so much by saying it bulks up their debatig skills, etc. But really, people just love an almighty row, knowing they won't be hed to account for their views in the "real world". You can say what you please on here, with no repurcussions, cus even if you sound dumb, noone knows you anyway. I just feel a bit sad about those who join, then get really serious about it, and treat it as some kind of alternative life. Which is why i don't join any societies- you would get sucked in and it'd become the typing equivalent of, as you say, smack. Glad to see you're back though!
You're in two societies! Has self-delusion set in? The sign of a true addict....
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