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    (Original post by Hopple)
    Yeah, and it doesn't make it at all fair, hence there's no sport. It's like Man U's first team vs some nursery school's 5-a-side team on a full sized pitch - sure it's technically football, but to call it sport is ridiculous and when Man U batter the toddlers it'd be shameful to take any sort of pride in the win. If you're doing it for food then do it for food, but don't pretend it's glamourous.

    I don't know why you've directed this at me, but I'll answer anyway - if you argue from the standpoint of nature making us hunters, then you must also accept that hunters kill for food or other resources, not for fun.
    On the first point, if man was to have no weapon should the lion then lose its claws and teeth? the stag its strength and antlers, the boar its ferocity and tusks? Nature gave us opposable thumbs and intelligence (whilst taking away strength speed, claws, thick hides, sharp senses) and we have learnt to use them. Btw im not talking a high powered rifle here shot from half a mile away, yes i would argue completely against that as removing all challenge - im talking more up close and personal, with bow or even spear and net.

    The second point wasnt directly toward yourself - however i will point something out. Humans are not the only animal to hunt for sport. Foxes for instance will kill one hen for food then slaughter the rest of the house just because it can, so do big cats (and house cats for that matter). And if humans are not meant to hunt for sport - why then do so many people enjoy it? We receive a rush from it, pleasure. It is instinctive for us to hunt, not always for a kill but we do not lose our predatory nature just because society has changed its views on hunting.


    (Original post by Syrokal)

    Pleasure to meet yah my man, and good to see another Hunter in the thread, was starting to feel lonely.
    You'd like my archery group, five pagans in there for a start and the two group leaders pretty much live off the land and their main income comes from leather working.

    (Original post by miser)
    It's a difference, but not in my mind a salient difference. Both humans and deer don't deserve to get shot at, but it seems this is a fairly radical sentiment.
    To some degree i agree, they dont deserve to get shot, but the world isnt that nice. Both humans and deer get shot - at least with some instances of deer hunting it can be a necessary cull - humans death by gunfire are a lot less meaningful most of the time.

    (Original post by Exodus)
    OP, you are what separates us humans from the animals - and makes us worse than them.

    You can understand death, pain, terror, an ability that no other animal has and still you chose to inflict these for no reason other than your own pleasure. In this you have done a deed worse than any non-human animal has ever committed in the history of earth. I would genuinely much rather see an arrow through your brain than an innocent deer or antelope.

    If karma exists (which unfortunately it doesn't) you will be visited by a sadistic serial killer (which you essentially are) who would be able to inflict on you what you have done to these creatures.
    Posts like this really make me despair at the intelligence of some people (yourself included) - you would wish a violent horrific death on a member of your own species for hunting. And are completely unaware if your own irony.

    And if you think that humans are the only animals that hunt for sport, then you have a lot to learn.
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    (Original post by Exodus)
    Well to me it seems pretty psychopathic to go on the hunt for something that you do not consider your enemy.
    Oh well we will have to disagree



    Oh...right... I think I am getting a clearer picture of your mental state.
    In what way?
    Unless you are implying religious=insane?



    'm sure you said earlier you switched to a bow? Which is not as clean or quick as a gun, but more fun for you...?
    It's just as quick if your good at it.

    It's a hotly debated topic, with good arguments on both sides, it's often thought that rifle rounds often pass clear through and through and due to there size often fail to kill quickly, animals limp away for a lot longer and bleed out a lot slower.

    Arrows if you fail to kill instantly with the shot, slow the animal down and generally debilitate it a lot more quickly allowing me to move in and slit the throat.
    Generally though I find I can get a clean kill with a modern compound bow with the same rate of success that I (and most other hunters I know) get clean kills with a rifle.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    ...
    Can I ask what made you go from being vegetarian to hunter? I take it you eat meat?

    To be honest, the way you hunt would ultimately be less cruel than the suffering of animals raised for meat. At least the animals you kill have a quick death, and I'm assuming you don't go around alerting them of your presence so they aren't running around scared for hours on end.

    You've repeatedly said the animals you hunt don't suffer, so I'm wondering how you feel about the suffering of animals raised for meat?
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    (Original post by tjf8)
    People bandy the word "unnecessary" around with respect to hunting a lot, and I'm merely pointing out that there's a wider picture. What makes killing an animal for sport worse than killing it for leather?
    I agree with neither, and would say that they really are almost as bad as each other; however, with killing for sport, I honestly am appalled by the enjoyment that people get from the hunt itself. The actual act of enjoying and causing that animal's death is something I cannot understand. People do enjoy their leather jackets/coats etc, but it's in a different way; people are generally detached from the death of the animal and it isn't directly what they're gaining pleasure from.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    In what way?
    Unless you are implying religious=insane?
    Are you religious? Which religion? Sorry for the double post, thought you might not see it otherwise if you'd started replying to the other one.
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    (Original post by silverbolt)
    To some degree i agree, they dont deserve to get shot, but the world isnt that nice. Both humans and deer get shot - at least with some instances of deer hunting it can be a necessary cull - humans death by gunfire are a lot less meaningful most of the time.
    Maybe let's try to make it more nice?
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    (Original post by Lazuliblue)
    Can I ask what made you go from being vegetarian to hunter? I take it you eat meat?
    I went hunter-vegi-hunter actually heh.
    And yes I do eat meat.

    Ultimately I came to the personal conclusions that the rational and emotionally appealing arguments put forward by Vegetarians/Vegans and Anti-hunters while certainly rational and logical, did not agree with what I genuinely felt and wanted to act upon.

    I enjoy meat, my body is designed to eat meat, my ancestors have always been hunters, I enjoy hunting, I enjoy the thrill.
    While it's nice to think that other animals have rights comparable to humans, I just don't think really...deep down..that they do, and I don't think I need to pander to them.

    Why force myself to follow some rigid , logical , PC friendly code, when what I enjoy doing and what my hear calls me to do is out there waiting to be done.

    As it is I enjoy hunting, I enjoy eating meat.

    I draw lines at cruelty and unessercery suffering, but I accept that a certain ammount must occur.

    To be honest, the way you hunt would ultimately be less cruel than the suffering of animals raised for meat. At least the animals you kill have a quick death, and I'm assuming you don't go around alerting them of your presence so they aren't running around scared for hours on end.
    If I did that, I wouldn't be a good hunter.

    And I agree, it may sound very hypocrtical, but I don't eat meat from battery farms or most institutions, I only eat from Free-range suppliers with a very, very high standard, and I often go out of the way to buy meat from markets that I know has been hunted.

    You've repeatedly said the animals you hunt don't suffer,
    Ive stated that I try to minimize there suffering, if I bodge a shot(which occasionally happens as Silverbolt will also attest to) I make a point to sprint hell for leather so I can coup de gras.

    so I'm wondering how you feel about the suffering of animals raised for meat?
    Not big on it at all as stated above my friend.
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    (Original post by Lazuliblue)
    Are you religious? Which religion? Sorry for the double post, thought you might not see it otherwise if you'd started replying to the other one.
    I am indeed, Asatru.

    No bother, I am enjoying our talk!
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    Posts like this really make me despair at the intelligence of some people (yourself included) - you would wish a violent horrific death on a member of your own species for hunting. And are completely unaware if your own irony.
    I never wished a violent death on anyone, I just said I find the death of someone who kills for fun preferable than the death of a deer or antelope. In the same way I would prefer the death of Peter Sutcliffe to the death of a newborn baby, for example.

    What does my own species have to do with it? I do not feel an affinity with humans over other animals in the same way I do not feel an affinity with other white people over people of a different colour.



    And if you think that humans are the only animals that hunt for sport, then you have a lot to learn.
    I never said I thought that either, but humans are the only ones who understand the pain and suffering caused by such activites.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    I am indeed, Asatru.

    No bother, I am enjoying our talk!
    Good!

    Do you have any pets? I'm just wondering if your feel the same towards any pets you may have as you would towards the animals you hunt?
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    [QUOTE=Syrokal;42009406]Argh you need to learn to quote box, you made replying to this needlessly difficult.


    Oh were discussing morality?
    My bad.

    This conversation won't go anywhere, I think morality is completely subjective, I am often told I am a Nihilist.



    Indeed we can.
    But what's wrong with it?



    I was referring explicitly to inter-species relations not inter-specie's relations.

    I am a homosapien supremacist, so I value safeguarding my own species and as such would not condone rape or murder.


    So the only problem with rape is that is it illegal? That is worrying./QUOTE]
    Not at all, it's wrong because it's harmful.

    You were the one who seemed to be advocating it, I was simply being polite and warning you not to.
    1) Why start a moral discussion (how else is a discussion on hunting going to go) when you deny the existence of morals. It seems like you just want to argue and waste peoples time when you have no interest in considering other peoples views.
    2) As you said later in your post it is wrong because it causes suffering. You may not care about the animals suffering but that doesn't mean its suffering should be ignored. If we ignored the effects of our actions just because we personally didn't care about them we would all be for murdering people we didn't like. I don't particularly think I would notice if you were to die but I wouldn't kill you because I know that you and others close to you would. I respect them enough to value their desires even if they conflict with mine.
    3) Why would different rules apply to species and interspecies interactions
    ? All of my arguments against hunting can apply to the individual to individual interactions (human or otherwise) so if we completely ignore all thoughts on species and look at it from an individual perspective what is your reason to kill another animal. If I killed you and then claimed I did it for fun should I be let off?
    4) I wasn't suggesting rape was acceptable, I pointed out the flaw in your logic because you did. You made up an argument which sounds convincing but in reality offers no justification and when applied to other situations is clearly flawed.
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    (Original post by Lazuliblue)
    Good!

    Do you have any pets? I'm just wondering if your feel the same towards any pets you may have as you would towards the animals you hunt?
    An old Lurcher, who I think is on his last legs, I love him to bits and I think sometime in the next few months he might have to be put down.
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    (Original post by silverbolt)
    On the first point, if man was to have no weapon should the lion then lose its claws and teeth? the stag its strength and antlers, the boar its ferocity and tusks? Nature gave us opposable thumbs and intelligence (whilst taking away strength speed, claws, thick hides, sharp senses) and we have learnt to use them. Btw im not talking a high powered rifle here shot from half a mile away, yes i would argue completely against that as removing all challenge - im talking more up close and personal, with bow or even spear and net.
    You with a weapon, car, backup and whatever removes the 'sport' from it. I'm not saying make it exactly 50:50, but from what you've said, I imagine you've killed dozens and since you're still alive the odds are very much in your favour. Considering you're the one with the intent, you've deliberately stacked the odds heavily in your favour. Now there's nothing wrong with that (you want food, so you make sure you get it), but there's certainly no glory in defeating such an inferior opponent. It'd be ridiculous for a farmer to collect the skulls of all the cows he'd slaughtered (if he slaughtered them himself), and take a photo with them hoping for recognition, yet that is essentially what you're doing in your OP pictures - you've killed something that wasn't trying to kill you, and even if it was, it had no chance of succeeding anyway. Heck, it had no chance of escaping you either because you were willing to take a plane to get that oryx (okay, maybe not that oryx, but you were going to get something).

    The second point wasnt directly toward yourself - however i will point something out. Humans are not the only animal to hunt for sport. Foxes for instance will kill one hen for food then slaughter the rest of the house just because it can, so do big cats (and house cats for that matter). And if humans are not meant to hunt for sport - why then do so many people enjoy it? We receive a rush from it, pleasure. It is instinctive for us to hunt, not always for a kill but we do not lose our predatory nature just because society has changed its views on hunting.
    Fair point, I can see why it's a good thing for a hunter to stay sharp. I still don't see any glory though - it's just too easy and you don't really have anything on the line.
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    (Original post by Aoide;)
    1) Why start a moral discussion (how else is a discussion on hunting going to go) when you deny the existence of morals. It seems like you just want to argue and waste peoples time when you have no interest in considering other peoples views.
    Ive never deneied the existence of morals.
    I just think they are subjective.

    And that it is not "objectively wrong" to take the life of an Animal.

    2) As you said later in your post it is wrong because it causes suffering. You may not care about the animals suffering but that doesn't mean its suffering should be ignored. If we ignored the effects of our actions just because we personally didn't care about them we would all be for murdering people we didn't like.[/quote]
    Which is why I draw an inter-species line.

    I don't particularly think I would notice if you were to die but I wouldn't kill you because I know that you and others close to you would. I respect them enough to value their desires even if they conflict with mine.
    Very good!

    3) Why would different rules apply to species and interspecies interactions
    Because as a species we should set out to protect and care for our own.

    All of my arguments against hunting can apply to the individual to individual interactions (human or otherwise) so if we completely ignore all thoughts on species and look at it from an individual perspective what is your reason to kill another animal. If I killed you and then claimed I did it for fun should I be let off?
    Why would we ignore the concept of species though?
    There is no reason to.

    4) I wasn't suggesting rape was acceptable, I pointed out the flaw in your logic because you did. You made up an argument which sounds convincing but in reality offers no justification and when applied to other situations is clearly flawed.
    Yet promoting cross-species killing, does not promote inter-species rape.

    There is no connection between the two, anymore than promoting orange juice as a good flavor can be linked to promoting fiscal socialism.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    An old Lurcher, who I think is on his last legs, I love him to bits and I think sometime in the next few months he might have to be put down.
    Oh that's a shame

    I would love to debate more, but I must go to bed....I'm supposed to be getting early nights so I'm up and ready in the morning to revise!

    Edit: Also, just for the record, I'm vegan

    Double edit: And a vegan who uses emoticons waaaay too much.
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    (Original post by Lazuliblue)
    Oh that's a shame

    I would love to debate more, but I must go to bed....I'm supposed to be getting early nights so I'm up and ready in the morning to revise!

    Edit: Also, just for the record, I'm vegan

    Double edit: And a vegan who uses emoticons waaaay too much.
    It is!

    Pleasure talking to you, mayhaps we can continue this another day!
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    It is!

    Pleasure talking to you, mayhaps we can continue this another day!
    I really am going to bed....but did you make that word up or is it a typo? Either way I'm going to use it from now on
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    (Original post by Lazuliblue)
    I really am going to bed....but did you make that word up or is it a typo? Either way I'm going to use it from now on
    Tis a real world!

    Old english, but real.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mayhap
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    (Original post by Where'sPerry?)
    I agree with neither, and would say that they really are almost as bad as each other; however, with killing for sport, I honestly am appalled by the enjoyment that people get from the hunt itself. The actual act of enjoying and causing that animal's death is something I cannot understand. People do enjoy their leather jackets/coats etc, but it's in a different way; people are generally detached from the death of the animal and it isn't directly what they're gaining pleasure from.
    Well, I can understand it – humans are natural hunters and predators; that's why we live off meat. It's written into our instincts. A lot of people find it abhorrent, and I would say that that's because of our not having to use this instinct to survive any more. Hunting is natural, though. Hunting purely for sport might not be natural (although it is in some species), but that's part of the whole thing. We just don't need the nutrition bit any more.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    You with a weapon, car, backup and whatever removes the 'sport' from it. I'm not saying make it exactly 50:50, but from what you've said, I imagine you've killed dozens and since you're still alive the odds are very much in your favour. Considering you're the one with the intent, you've deliberately stacked the odds heavily in your favour. Now there's nothing wrong with that (you want food, so you make sure you get it), but there's certainly no glory in defeating such an inferior opponent. It'd be ridiculous for a farmer to collect the skulls of all the cows he'd slaughtered (if he slaughtered them himself), and take a photo with them hoping for recognition, yet that is essentially what you're doing in your OP pictures - you've killed something that wasn't trying to kill you, and even if it was, it had no chance of succeeding anyway. Heck, it had no chance of escaping you either because you were willing to take a plane to get that oryx (okay, maybe not that oryx, but you were going to get something).



    Fair point, I can see why it's a good thing for a hunter to stay sharp. I still don't see any glory though - it's just too easy and you don't really have anything on the line.
    ive never big game hunted so im sorry if i gave that impression (and i think your confusing me with the OP a bit as well), Ive never gone after deer or anything like that.

    Because im an archer I can just appreciate where the OP is coming from a bit more - and im not against one on one hunting.

    However if you think its easy to shoot a bow accurately - rest assured its not and it takes years to get good at it. And thats for target shooting - never mind going after big game.
 
 
 
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