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"Benefit cuts: Monday will be the day that defines this government..." Watch

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    (Original post by rockrunride)
    Quite. Which is why I might as well just curl up, die and then get my family to get the government to pay for my funeral. Because I've no less right to that money being spent than her.
    I detest Thatcher due to some of her policies however regardless of you opinion she deserves the money being spent on her more than you do. Simply because people care more about her death than they care about yours thus there is no demand for any considerable sum to be spent on your funeral, whilst there is some ( arguably not adequate) demand for millions to be spent on her funeral
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    (Original post by Norton1)
    You were elected as prime minister three times? Mr...Mr Blair?
    He's not going to have £10m spent on him to lie there and be walked past. Callaghan didn't. Wilson didn't. Heath didn't. Get my drift?
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    And how do you measure quality of care exactly?
    Survival rates help
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    (Original post by Thriftworks)
    I detest Thatcher due to some of her policies however regardless of you opinion she deserves the money being spent on her more than you do. Simply because people care more about her death than they care about yours thus there is no demand for any considerable sum to be spent on your funeral, whilst there is some ( arguably not adequate) demand for millions to be spent on her funeral
    She has an estate of tens of millions of pounds. I have nothing. She deserves nothing.

    So how can benefit cuts be justified when the government sees fit to piss money away like this?
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    (Original post by rockrunride)
    He's not going to have £10m spent on him to lie there and be walked past. Callaghan didn't. Wilson didn't. Heath didn't. Get my drift?
    Neither will Major or Brown, but there's a good argument for recognising the contribution of a Prime Minster who was not only elected three times but also transformed Britain.
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    (Original post by rockrunride)
    She has an estate of tens of millions of pounds. I have nothing. She deserves nothing.
    In our opinion she deserves nothing. But there are lots of others who feel differently. Face it, people care more about thatcher dying than if we were to die today. So if anyone is to receive money from the state for an extravagant funeral between you/her she wins due to popular demand.
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    (Original post by Norton1)
    Neither will Major or Brown, but there's a good argument for recognising the contribution of a Prime Minster who was not only elected three times but also transformed Britain.
    No there isn't. Not when your last point literally divides Britain in half in terms of the outcome of her putative 'transformation'.
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    (Original post by rockrunride)

    So how can benefit cuts be justified when the government sees fit to piss money away like this?
    Off topic. + IMO they can't, but the topic we were discussing, who is deserving of 10m being spent on their funeral you or her is what i was addressing. Can i have the source for this 10 million number aswell?
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    (Original post by rockrunride)
    No there isn't. Not when your last point literally divides Britain in half in terms of the outcome of her putative 'transformation'.
    Every part of Britain is better for having had her.
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    (Original post by rockrunride)
    No there isn't. Not when your last point literally divides Britain in half in terms of the outcome of her putative 'transformation'.
    It isn't a question of the outcome, merely scale.
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    (Original post by Thriftworks)
    Survival rates help
    Right, so patients with different diseases, at different stages, should be used as measurements then?

    Hospital A has a 50% survival rate, hospital B has a 70% survival rate. Hospital B must be better? No, it all depends on how sick patients are when they come in, how many come in, how busy was it. You can't compare hospitals like that.
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    (Original post by Thriftworks)
    In our opinion she deserves nothing. But there are lots of others who feel differently. Face it, people care more about thatcher dying than if we were to die today. So if anyone is to receive money from the state for an extravagant funeral between you/her she wins due to popular demand.
    But if people had a straight on comparison of the two, £10 million for a randomer or £10 million on a luxurious funeral for Thatcher. I'd say you'd be surprised.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    For example, the DLA/PIP changeovers will reprioritise spending (which is increasing) on disability benefits. That will leave some disabled people with extra needs which are assessed as being of a lower level with less money, but will give more to those who have a higher level of need.
    Are you actually being serious or did you take that straight out of tory hq?

    Meanwhile in reality.. of course disability benefits are increasing because there have been medical changes and the demographic of the country has changed-people are living longer and people pensioner's can keep their claim if they made it before retirement - plus more disabled children are surviving. Dla made it possible for disabled people to live in their homes and not in care where they wouldn't of got the same benefits.

    The fraud rate for dla is 0.5%. FFS Cameron is a millionaire, who claimed it for his son and let everyone know he was but the big difference is he doesn't have a clue what its actually like to rely on the money.

    So why couldn't they just implement changes to Dla such as more reviewing of changes? Why have they already got targets before they've even assessed people? Why did they not implement the mobility changes until all the consultation periods had passed?

    This is nothing but cuts to the people who need it the most proven by the lowering of the mobility criteria from 50m to 20m. So if people can walk 21-50 meters than they can no longer get the high rate mobility allowance - no motability wheelchair scooter or car, blue badge, bus pass, taxi scheme in london or tube, or any of the passport concessions that come with it. Rendering seriously disabled people housebound or forcing them into wheelchairs(if they can get one) either way have detrimental affects to their physical and mental health are therefore more strain on the nhs.
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    And How much of the wxtra cost of The funeral will be down to policing needed to stop the immature tosspots and bitter old prats like Ken and Billy from making idiots of themselves, ik some of the costs are also down to dissident Irish republican and AQ threats...

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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Right, so patients with different diseases, at different stages, should be used as measurements then?

    Hospital A has a 50% survival rate, hospital B has a 70% survival rate. Hospital B must be better? No, it all depends on how sick patients are when they come in, how many come in, how busy was it. You can't compare hospitals like that.
    Yes you can, it would be an average sure it wouldn't be exact per every individual case but you still attain a useful overall picture. Obviously the larger the scale of the hospital = more useful figures. Survival rates are used to compare health institutions internationally for these reasons.
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    (Original post by Thriftworks)
    Yes you can, it would be an average sure it wouldn't be exact per every individual case but you still attain a useful overall picture. Obviously the larger the scale of the hospital = more useful figures. Survival rates are used to compare health institutions internationally for these reasons.
    On an international basis it makes sense because you have more data, I would say on a hospital to hospital basis, they can only make judgements on more diseases and treatments.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    On an international basis it makes sense because you have more data, I would say on a hospital to hospital basis, they can only make judgements on more diseases and treatments.
    With very large hospitals the data is also of some use, other factors have to be taken into account however before arriving to a judgement of course.
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    (Original post by vivavangveing)
    Are you actually being serious or did you take that straight out of tory hq?
    You're baffled by someone who agrees with a policy saying similar things to the people proposing (and, of course, enacting) a policy?

    Meanwhile in reality.. of course disability benefits are increasing because there have been medical changes and the demographic of the country has changed-people are living longer and people pensioner's can keep their claim if they made it before retirement - plus more disabled children are surviving. Dla made it possible for disabled people to live in their homes and not in care where they wouldn't of got the same benefits.

    The fraud rate for dla is 0.5%. FFS Cameron is a millionaire, who claimed it for his son and let everyone know he was but the big difference is he doesn't have a clue what its actually like to rely on the money.
    I have never given a damn about the fraud rate. It is a ridiculous and meaningless red herring in these sorts of debates. What I care about is appropriate assessment and an evidence-based system. Prior to the current reforms, we had neither.

    Yes, spending on DLA/PIP is increasing. You correctly identify largely why that is. Good. Kindly address that to the people who clearly think it is being cut.

    So why couldn't they just implement changes to Dla such as more reviewing of changes? Why have they already got targets before they've even assessed people? Why did they not implement the mobility changes until all the consultation periods had passed?

    This is nothing but cuts to the people who need it the most proven by the lowering of the mobility criteria from 50m to 20m. So if people can walk 21-50 meters than they can no longer get the high rate mobility allowance - no motability wheelchair scooter or car, blue badge, bus pass, taxi scheme in london or tube, or any of the passport concessions that come with it. Rendering seriously disabled people housebound or forcing them into wheelchairs(if they can get one) either way have detrimental affects to their physical and mental health are therefore more strain on the nhs.
    There are no "targets".

    I'm afraid some of that simply isn't true. For example, some of the passported benefits (blue badge, bus pass) you mention are not solely dependent on higher rate mobility, or even claiming DLA.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    And how do you measure quality of care exactly?

    That's the point, for the most part is it not measurable and is simply a product of the quality of person/training given of nurses these days, yet there has been a sharp rise in abuse (esp. in care homes) and an increase in complaints.

    Subjectively, many who have been inside a hospital recently for a mid-long period would tend to agree.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Yes, spending on DLA/PIP is increasing. You correctly identify largely why that is. Good. Kindly address that to the people who clearly think it is being cut
    by the lowering of the mobility criteria from 50m to 20m is just one way its being cut, ofcourse there may not be many savings as the money will go to atos for taking it off the people who actually need it.

    There are no "targets".
    Disability charity Scope warned that some people face cuts of £131 a week. It estimated that 600,000 disabled people would lose a total of £2.62bn in support over the next five years. Scope said disabled people were worried that the government’s changes were little more than a cost-cutting drive, with arbitrary targets in place to limit the amount of benefit paid out.

    I'm afraid some of that simply isn't true. For example, some of the passported benefits (blue badge, bus pass) you mention are not solely dependent on higher rate mobility, or even claiming DLA.
    Source? Bus passes and blue badges, if you don't have high rate mobility are at the discretion of local authority's, but in terms of walking distance - which is what i was referring to - they use the dla measurements, which will leave a postcode lottery if some, if not all councils also use the pip measurements. A tunnel pass for example in my area is linked solely to high rate mobility, there are other local things that are and even those with discretion will be alot more difficult for disabled people to access.

    They're still loosing their cars, electric wheelchairs, scooters because the walking distance is being reduced for what?
 
 
 
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