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    (Original post by GoodDay)
    Look, I agree that people can succeed from a poorer background if they work hard and that the type of school you go to is not the ultimate deciding factor.

    And I agree that this cycle does exist but exists because as soon as poorer kids are born they are at a disadvantage. For a country to be truly meritocratic and for people to be truly rewarded for how hard they work they need to start with a level playing field. At GCSE I worked much harder than my friend but because he's much wealthier he is doing his A Levels at a private school. He's now going to get the better education and possibly the better A Level grades and why? Because his parents are richer. Now I'm determined not to let this happen and I do work very hard but the fact is I'm in the minority.

    It's so easy for you in your comfortable smug life to say 'why don't you just work harder' but the fact is, statistically speaking, had you grown up in a working class family you would probably be in the exact same position as the people you blame. You would be born knowing that to succeed you will have to work harder than people who have done nothing to earn the position they're in. So yeah, I guess there is a bit of a 'chip on peoples shoulders' but not on a conscious level and it makes a large difference between what I just mentioned and being born knowing that your special. That you're getting an excellent education. That you're better than the poor idiots you see in the street. You really can not be so arrogant as to assume that had you been from a working class family the chip wouldn't have been on your shoulder. I personally believe that the problems start with the family not the school but the difference in schooling really is the final nail in the working class coffin.
    I'm glad that you agree on some of my previous points and that you didn't try to include any false statistics this time. My point is however that if you do work hard you can succeed in life, a point of which you agree with to an extent however even though, admittedly, there is some degree of inequality and 'cherry picking' from the better schools at some universities they are more interested in your grades and indeed your passion for your subject. As for your point about your friend, you could just of easily applied for a free grammar school, where the teaching tends to be better than that at some public schools. In addition there is no time in life to have a chip on one's shoulder because in the real world nobody could care less about anybody's hopeless moaning about their lack of education or poor background therefore if I was in a less fortunate person's position I would work all the more harder to outdo everybody who thinks that your path in life is defined by the type of family you are born into and those who are at better schools because some people are naturally clever and some people like to kid themselves into thinking that they are in fact geniuses but are working stacking shelves because of their bad education when in fact there is no such thing as a bad education. I would also like to apologise for my lack of paragraphs, it doesn't seem to work when I press enter.
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    (Original post by Octohedral)
    If you are serious, then you are extraordinarily naive. I suspect you are not serious, because you have called yourself Lord Harold.

    I agree that half of the success of private schools is down to upbringing and mentality - if a child is given self confidence and a good work ethic at a young age, rich or poor, then they will do well. However, if they are not given those things, how is that down to anything other than luck?

    I went to a private secondary school on a scholarship, but before my parents told me I was taking the exam I didn't even know private schools existed. The fact I went there was entirely down to my parents, and not to me, and I imagine the same applies to you.
    Of course I am serious, I would not be replying to endless amounts of people if I was not and as for my username, it is a jokey nickname given to me after a teacher said 'give that boy a title' and my name is not Harold either, just Harry. Judging by your username I would presume that your are a molecule with six atoms but obviously you aren't and this just proves how nonsensical it is to judge somebody by a 'Student Room' name.
    The moral turpitude instilled in a child at a young age is important to their chances of success in life however it would be foolish to suggest that those whose parents haven't had a sense of moral duty will never succeed. The very fact however that you and I have both been sent to a private school shows that our parents want to create the most fruitful future possible. Your last point appears to be a somewhat obvious observation, Very few Year 6 students tell their parents that they want to go to a public school purely because they have no idea of what one is. This is where the parents come in and most of the time say that they enjoyed their school and decide to send their child to the same one or indeed one similar one. I will send my children, well son, if I have one, to my school because I know that I enjoyed it and so did my father and so did a great long line of other fathers. Maybe it is different for you though
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    (Original post by Lord Harold)
    Of course I am serious, I would not be replying to endless amounts of people if I was not and as for my username, it is a jokey nickname given to me after a teacher said 'give that boy a title' and my name is not Harold either, just Harry. Judging by your username I would presume that your are a molecule with six atoms but obviously you aren't and this just proves how nonsensical it is to judge somebody by a 'Student Room' name.
    The moral turpitude instilled in a child at a young age is important to their chances of success in life however it would be foolish to suggest that those whose parents haven't had a sense of moral duty will never succeed. The very fact however that you and I have both been sent to a private school shows that our parents want to create the most fruitful future possible. Your last point appears to be a somewhat obvious observation, Very few Year 6 students tell their parents that they want to go to a public school purely because they have no idea of what one is. This is where the parents come in and most of the time say that they enjoyed their school and decide to send their child to the same one or indeed one similar one. I will send my children, well son, if I have one, to my school because I know that I enjoyed it and so did my father and so did a great long line of other fathers. Maybe it is different for you though
    I mention your name because it appears to an impartial observer to be directly connected to the topic in hand, yet as you say, jokey. Apologies if you are who you say you are. You do seem to have a lot of comments, so thanks for your reply.

    The one thing I would say is that children with bad academic and moral guidance almost always do not succeed. The exceptions are those who have read the right books at an early age, or had guidance from a teacher or somewhere else. I'm not saying it's impossible to do well, I'm saying that in my experience children almost always end up with their parents' values in the long run.

    My point is that it still comes down to luck. Of course I would send my child to a private school - I am on your side in that sense - I don't want private schools banned. I am just pointing out that it's naive to think that anyone can have what you have if they try harder.
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    (Original post by Octohedral)
    I mention your name because it appears to an impartial observer to be directly connected to the topic in hand, yet as you say, jokey. Apologies if you are who you say you are. You do seem to have a lot of comments, so thanks for your reply.

    The one thing I would say is that children with bad academic and moral guidance almost always do not succeed. The exceptions are those who have read the right books at an early age, or had guidance from a teacher or somewhere else. I'm not saying it's impossible to do well, I'm saying that in my experience children almost always end up with their parents' values in the long run.

    My point is that it still comes down to luck. Of course I would send my child to a private school - I am on your side in that sense - I don't want private schools banned. I am just pointing out that it's naive to think that anyone can have what you have if they try harder.
    Oh please don't thank me, I'm quite enjoying all these replies! I also would like to apologise for my lack of paragraphs in the coming writing as my enter isn't working! You have a good point with the fact that those who don't have 'moral and academic guidance' at a young age do not achieve, it is impossible and I completely agree with you. As you also implied anyone can have some sort of lucky break or something like that. I also think that it depends what you class as successful for example you could be a multi millionaire drug dealer living in a stately home and driving a roller, that is not in my eyes successful, but is, I suppose, in a literal sense. What a very interesting philosophical point, what is success?...
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    (Original post by Iron Lady)
    That's a silly suggestion. The student shouldn't have to face unfair treatment when they didn't choose it themselves. Private school students and students with tutors still need to work.
    Its just that students without tutors have to work harder.
    Tutors are an unfair advantage rich tossers have, as are private schools.

    I could argue that allowing tutors and private schools for rich kids is unfair treatment to poorer kids whose families are not able to afford those things.



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    (Original post by Asterisk49)
    Its just that students without tutors have to work harder.
    Tutors are an unfair advantage rich tossers have, as are private schools.

    I could argue that allowing tutors and private schools for rich kids is unfair treatment to poorer kids whose families are not able to afford those things.



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    I have said it before and will say it again, If someone from a poorer back ground were to apply for a public school they would be offered bursaries/ scholarships if they are intelligent enough to qualify to get in and had the aptitude to do well , this is not a case of rich versus poor, I know many people at my school who have 85-100% off their school fees because of them coming from a poorer background
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    (Original post by Asterisk49)
    Its just that students without tutors have to work harder.
    Surely it's the other way round. Students with tutors have to work harder, because they have a tutor on their case all the time piling work on them - as opposed to a student with no tutor, who comes home from school and is free to do whatever he wants.

    It's like having a personal trainer. You get better results with one, because they make you work more, not less.
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    (Original post by TheGuy117)
    Firstly, I realise that this thread has been done before, however I believe the Op was incoherent in his argument and didn't even put a reasonably strong argument forward, instead, he just rambled. So here is my concise argument, with just 2 points.

    Equality
    Quite an obvious place to start is the argument that if by removing wealth as a factor of a child's academic success, the educational system and future generations of society as a whole would be a lot more equal.
    Just look at where the top universities are in terms of proportions of students from private school - at the top end.
    http://www.studentbeans.com/student-...eague2169.html
    Now look at this, studies have found there is a bias in the selection process.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/student...s-8549126.html

    More effective
    Finland went from having a mediocre education system, to the best in the world, how? They banned private schools and made education equal for all
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...d-2289083.html
    If you look at other top countries for education, you will find they all have a similar ethos, while "Great" Britain sits in a mediocre 31st place.

    I truly believe an education system where equality rules would greatly improve standards for the whole country. Since this is an "Educational Debate", what are your thoughts on this?
    Abolishing private schools would not increase the standards in state schools. Why focus on dragging a minority of others down to the same level, rather than focusing on improving the majority? As others have said, a private school is a private business, just like any other, and it would be unfair to close them down on that basis. Moreover, exceptional students from disadvantaged backgrounds are given scholarships etc. This country does provide many opportunities for people to climb each rung of the ladder. What we need to do is focus solely on state schools, rather than blaming private schools.

    This is coming from someone who went to some of the worst state schools in the country.
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    (Original post by McMurdo)
    Abolishing private schools would not increase the standards in state schools. Why focus on dragging a minority of others down to the same level, rather than focusing on improving the majority? As others have said, a private school is a private business, just like any other, and it would be unfair to close them down on that basis. Moreover, exceptional students from disadvantaged backgrounds are given scholarships etc. This country does provide many opportunities for people to climb each rung of the ladder. What we need to do is focus solely on state schools, rather than blaming private schools.

    This is coming from someone who went to some of the worst state schools in the country.
    Like closing private schools in Finland dragged them down?...Oh wait, schools got better.
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    (Original post by TheGuy117)
    Like closing private schools in Finland dragged them down?...Oh wait, schools got better.
    How did closing down private schools help the state schooling system? I'm just asking to see if they are actually related at all. If so, how did it actually make a difference? Surely a private business closing down is not going to have a direct effect on the state schools?
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    ' you would work more harder'
    I think you should be working more harder in English at the minute you arrogant conceited condescending prick


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    (Original post by Asterisk49)
    I think that anybody who had an unfair advantage over other students with less money e.g tutors, private education that a state school cannot compete with should have that taken into account when an exam paper is marked or something.

    At this point its not about who is the smartest, its about who's parents were able to get them into the best schools and force them to revise with a tutor.




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    Probably the most preposterous thing I have ever heard in my life.
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    Out of curiosity, are gcse exam conditions less strict in private schools?? For example to the teachers issue help etc.


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    No, just no. Removing Independent schools would be an absolutely ridiculous thing to do. I'm just gonna' start and leave at saying it would add to the already stretched education budget and leave it at that.

    (Original post by Millerman)
    Out of curiosity, are gcse exam conditions less strict in private schools?? For example to the teachers issue help etc.
    No they are exactly the same as in the state sector. Silence in a big hall from entry to exit - in fact I have found that state schools are much less strict - I changed for 6th form and people had phones on in their pockets, wrote notes on arms etc. At a private school you would get blasted for that... And they enforce absolute silence around exam halls.

    (Original post by JamesTheCool)
    So just allow 7% of the country to have the best possible education, while the rest of us 93% have mediocre to rubbish ones? Sounds fair...
    This point is absolute garbage - maybe the top 5% of private schools have excellent teachers, but many have teachers at exactly the same level. The difference is class size and disruptive students, along with pushiness of parents.

    Private schools expel 'bad' students and have average class sizes of 10-15 max and parents who are putting a healthy investment into their children and so are obviously going to push them to achieve.
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    (Original post by Millerman)
    Out of curiosity, are gcse exam conditions less strict in private schools?? For example to the teachers issue help etc.


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    Do you mean in the exam itself?

    If so, then the answer is definitely no. I've sat exams in state and independent schools, and the conditions were exactly the same.
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    the inequality is not necessarily true. i went to a private school from years 7-11 but i dont think im better than everyone else. I moved to a state school to do my a-levels and its actually worse than my private school. you can get some very stuck up people at either end of the spectrum to be fair!
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    (Original post by TheGuy117)
    Firstly, I realise that this thread has been done before, however I believe the Op was incoherent in his argument and didn't even put a reasonably strong argument forward, instead, he just rambled. So here is my concise argument, with just 2 points.

    Equality
    Quite an obvious place to start is the argument that if by removing wealth as a factor of a child's academic success, the educational system and future generations of society as a whole would be a lot more equal.
    Just look at where the top universities are in terms of proportions of students from private school - at the top end.
    http://www.studentbeans.com/student-...eague2169.html
    Now look at this, studies have found there is a bias in the selection process.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/student...s-8549126.html

    More effective
    Finland went from having a mediocre education system, to the best in the world, how? They banned private schools and made education equal for all
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...d-2289083.html
    If you look at other top countries for education, you will find they all have a similar ethos, while "Great" Britain sits in a mediocre 31st place.

    I truly believe an education system where equality rules would greatly improve standards for the whole country. Since this is an "Educational Debate", what are your thoughts on this?

    I go to a private school. Thanks for boosting my confidence. Private schools will never be banned, so get that out of your head.

    To add, students at private schools work harder, and money doesn't just play a part, you have to pass exams etc to get in - it's quite a process depending on the school.
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    (Original post by iLoveMyCatsx)
    I go to a private school. Thanks for boosting my confidence. Private schools will never be banned, so get that out of your head.

    To add, students at private schools work harder, and money doesn't just play a part, you have to pass exams etc to get in - it's quite a process depending on the school.
    I can tell you go to a private school from your entirely unfounded comment that 'students at private schools work harder.' Can I ask 1 how you think know that? And 2 how on earth do you justify that?


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    Are the actual gcse/A-level exams the same difficulty? And are the exam conditions in both provate and state schools the same? If so surely it's completely fair.


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    (Original post by Johnathon16)
    I can tell you go to a private school from your entirely unfounded comment that 'students at private schools work harder.' Can I ask 1 how you think know that? And 2 how on earth do you justify that?


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    Well he can't there is no evidence.

    However, there is evidence to show that, on average, private students attain higher standards of education.

    As to why is debatable I personally put it down to personal incentives to get the most out of school when you are paying for iit.

    Also on behalf the staff they can be dismissed and hired much easier allowing private schools to maintain a better quality of staff, this is helped by private vested interests pushing headteachers to make schools attain high standards in order to keep their school competitive and keep profit rolling in.
 
 
 
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