Muslim students at Queen Mary calling for a ‘right to pray’ Watch

Iqbal007
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
The clear difference being that any soc might use the lecture theatre for a one-off event, whereas the Islam SOC is demanding it be turned over to them in perpetuity. It's like inviting someone to take a slice of cake and they pick up the whole darn thing and walk off.
That's not true at all................firstly its not a lecture theater. Secondly its the ability to be able to book either of 2 halls for usage for 1 hour a week which aren't being used according to spot checks.
Its been done in the years before without any problems, when the university needed it, they would get priority and use it and we'd try to find some sort of alternatives. However the issue is that theres a blanket ban on being able to book the halls.
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
That is a totally inappropriate request. I do not want to see an institution of higher learning turning itself into a house of worship.



It's always a demand with these people. Not a request for dialogue, but an order to be obeyed. These people come across as deeply insecure and in the thrall of a false man-made belief system. I can tolerate its existence, I won't tolerate these bounders taking over a secular establishment for their own convenience, particularly as this convenience relates to paying homage to a non-existent sky dictator.
Again, another one that's just making up his own conclusion to suit his islamaphobic stance. Seems like you're the one insecure.

Since when does campaigning for something involves not dialogue. Seriously.
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Tpx
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
ISOC's can do whatever they want within their groups provided they don't break any rules of the SU and university.

And guess what, the campaign is working..........
And all the Islam-bashers, who are completely unaffected by this, cry out in pain.

(Original post by 419)
Also, the orgy example is just :facepalm2: Why do people feel the need to come up with the most extreme example? ... Lecure rooms aren't solely for education. University isn't solely for education.
There are just too many people in this thread who haven't been to uni yet and don't have a clue how it works. Can't blame them for not knowing, but why are some so argumentative about something they know nothing about?
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Tpx)
There are just too many people in this thread who haven't been to uni yet and don't have a clue how it works. Can't blame them for not knowing, but why are some so argumentative about something they know nothing about.
I actually work for a university, so I'm guessing I know more than you do about how these things work.

I'm thinking that the quoted text there is probably a fairly characteristic example of everything people think is wrong with I-SOCs. Arrogant, needy and factually incorrect.
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
That's not true at all................firstly its not a lecture theater. Secondly its the ability to be able to book either of 2 halls for usage for 1 hour a week which aren't being used according to spot checks
You are essentially asking for a standing booking. I work for a university and I can assure you that space utilisation is something that's constantly monitored and adjusted, and allowing a standing booking for a non-educational, non-event purpose is inappropriate.

It also has a whiff of marking of territory. Universities are supposed to be secular institutions. Multi-faith prayer rooms are reasonable enough, but demanding a major space within the university be turned over to your religion so you can engage in some odd group ritual and sermon is crossing the line.

Its been done in the years before without any problems, when the university needed it, they would get priority and use it and we'd try to find some sort of alternatives.
Maybe the circumstances or procedures have changed. Maybe they find the I-SOC's constant demands and paranoid outlook tiresome. Maybe they need to be sensitive to people of all religions

However the issue is that theres a blanket ban on being able to book the halls.
Which applies equally to all religions and all requests for a booking in perpetuity for non-education related events.
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by 419)
Again, another one that's just making up his own conclusion to suit his islamaphobic stance. Seems like you're the one insecure
As per usual, you positively thrive on self-pity and victimhood. But please don't let me obstruct you believing this is about Islam, rather than it being about any religion which is excessively demanding the rest of society adjust itself for its convenience.

Since when does campaigning for something involves not dialogue. Seriously.
"Involves not dialogue"? Leaving aside your synactical issues, it appears you construe "dialogue" to mean talking at people, rather than having a conversation with people. Shoving a demand in someone's face is not dialogue.
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Tpx
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
I actually work for a university, so I'm guessing I know more than you do about how these things work.

I'm thinking that the quoted text there is probably a fairly characteristic example of everything people think is wrong with I-SOCs. Arrogant, needy and factually incorrect.
I was referring solely to particular people in this thread who have said that they haven't reached uni yet, but are still having a long drawn-out argument about it. I wasn't referring to all opposing posts, as I am sure that there are many differences between institutions. I know I expressed this poorly.

In the first part of my post though, I was referring to posts like your one here...

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
That is a totally inappropriate request. I do not want to see an institution of higher learning turning itself into a house of worship.
It's always a demand with these people. Not a request for dialogue, but an order to be obeyed. These people come across as deeply insecure and in the thrall of a false man-made belief system. I can tolerate its existence, I won't tolerate these bounders taking over a secular establishment for their own convenience, particularly as this convenience relates to paying homage to a non-existent sky dictator.

... where I find it very amusing that you feel so victimised by these people.
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
As per usual, you positively thrive on self-pity and victimhood. But please don't let me obstruct you believing this is about Islam, rather than it being about any religion which is excessively demanding the rest of society adjust itself for its convenience.



"Involves not dialogue"? Leaving aside your synactical issues, it appears you construe "dialogue" to mean talking at people, rather than having a conversation with people. Shoving a demand in someone's face is not dialogue.
You're assuming I have a vested interested in this issue :laugh:

But please, tell me how a group wanting to use a free room is in anyway shape or form 'excessively demanding the rest of society adjust itself for its convenience.'

By your reckoning, any form of protesting is shoving a demand in someone's face. Okay. Seen it. I am quite the dummy :rolleyes:
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
You are essentially asking for a standing booking. I work for a university and I can assure you that space utilisation is something that's constantly monitored and adjusted, and allowing a standing booking for a non-educational, non-event purpose is inappropriate.

It's been perfectly ok at my uní ín the prevíous years....the halls are barely used, especially the great hall.

It also has a whiff of marking of territory. Universities are supposed to be secular institutions. Multi-faith prayer rooms are reasonable enough, but demanding a major space within the university be turned over to your religion so you can engage in some odd group ritual and sermon is crossing the line.

It's simply one hour per a week thats all...........the mutli-faith room doesn't have a high enough capacity, its overflowing and security came along and started enforcing more rules so we have less space then the first time we used the mfc for friday prayers.

Maybe the circumstances or procedures have changed. Maybe they find the I-SOC's constant demands and paranoid outlook tiresome. Maybe they need to be sensitive to people of all religions

Highly unlíkely........

Which applies equally to all religions and all requests for a booking in perpetuity for non-education related events.
Which isn't ríght, consíderíng the only excuse ís that its always booked which has been proved wrong.
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MedicalMike
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In the last census I listed my religion as 'Jedi"...

However, I am dissatisfied with the worship facilities at my university and do not want to worship at home, (which my religion states I actually AM allowed to do as the force is omnipresent meaning I am able to connect anywhere, but I just don't want to).

Obviously it is the responsibility of my University to let me have a lecture hall every friday night though so that I can watch star wars and appreciate the force. It is my religion after all isn't it?!
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(Original post by MedicalMike)
In the last census I listed my religion as 'Jedi"...

However, I am dissatisfied with the worship facilities at my university and do not want to worship at home, (which my religion states I actually AM allowed to do as the force is omnipresent meaning I am able to connect anywhere, but I just don't want to).

Obviously it is the responsibility of my University to let me have a lecture hall every friday night though so that I can watch star wars and appreciate the force. It is my religion after all isn't it?!
Ah, yes. Very clever. Top quality satire.
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Tpx)
Ah, yes. Very clever. Top quality satire.
It's a valid, if tacit, point. If he says that's his religion, who are you to say otherwise? Or are you proposing that religions should have to register with the government and be officially recognized in order to rely on religion-linked rights and expectations? Or should people have to submit to lie detector tests? Or should we just appoint you as the dictator of religion and you can say what is a real religion and what is not?

By calling it satire, it would appear you've missed the point. They're both made-up religions, they both exist only inside the head of the believer, both are entitled to equal protection under the law and reasonable accommodation in connection with sincerely held beliefs. By calling it satire, it allows you to avoid thinking about the very real similarities between Jedi-ism and Islam (and indeed all theism) in terms of what its practitioners are owed viz. reasonable adjustments.

P.S. Just in case my point didn't come through, a prayer room is a reasonable adjustment. Demanding that you be allowed to create a house of worship within the university is not.
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MostUncivilised
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http://www.independent.co.uk/student...s-8918293.html

Praying in the rain comes across as self-pitying, solipsistic and a bit psycho.

Friday prayers are supposed to happen at a mosque. It seems to me that the Muslims of QMU are demanding the halls become a de-facto mosque (will it be gender segregated!?). Not only would it be inadvisable for the university to allow a standing booking to be made (customary arrangements will become standard practice and thence reasonable expectation), it also seems selfishly intimidating and proprietary to demand the right for hundreds of Muslim men to engage in a very public and exclusive group ritual in a place that is not a mosque and should not be used for religious services. It suggests that you don't realise how this demand comes across to atheists and other religions that seem to manage without demanding the right to take over space in universities for church/synagogue services.

It seems to me that you get the best of both worlds from this campaign; you don't really want to walk that far to the mosque, but you can tell yourself you're fighting for Islam with this campaign, which presumably offsets the lack of willingness to make the necessary alternative arrangements. Does conceit earn you de-merits in Islam?
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Tpx)
... where I find it very amusing that you feel so victimised by these people.
I'm not surprised that you think it's a source of amusement when I contemplate religions demanding control over the public, secular sphere. Enlightened individuals in this country have fought tooth and claw for 150 years to restrain Christianity and Anglicanism to its proper sphere, and now it seems many Muslims would just like to substitute Anglicanism for Islam and take us right back to the old days of conspicuous, showy religiosity. Compulsion and social coercion, instead of a personal relationship with god.z

Many Muslims seem to think that all the worlds problems can be ascribed to not enough Islam. If only we could have all Islam, all the time, our problems would be solved, shurely? I-SOC's concern is not lack of prayer space, it's that it wants the largest space possible so that it can be packed with worshippers and thus gain the maximum merit for the prayer.
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If the students did decide to just pray on the streets, or some empty area outdoots because using an empty space in a university that no one is using at the time requested is somehow dictating then I can imagine everyone on the Guardian and Dailymail crying about the Islamification of Britain.
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User1310602
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(Original post by 419)
Going to keep going in circles with you. Where have I said that music is not good for you? I brought it up as an example to show it is something that not everyone needs/ cater to a very insignificant number of student and feel the room could be used for something else that is more productive to students education blah blah blah. Basically, I brought it up an example to show that people find solace, peace in something that doesn't make sense to others. Trust me, it isn't there to improve their education. It's their for social reason. If it's use was for educational purposes, why isn't it part of the curriculum? Also, who they **** are you to decide for people what they think is good or not. Anyone can find good/ bad in a lot of things. As long as it's not harming anyone/ anything what's it to you?

Also, stop putting words in my mouth. Where did I say they are sudden prosecuting and exterminating Muslims or even suggested that? I've made great pain to not accuse of them of this and made sure that my post doesn't accuse them of it. Like others, you fail to see the picture here and twisting the argument towards islam bashing.

My issue here is the uni is seemingly lying to student that a room is been used when it's free. It's got nothing to do with muslims. I couldn't care if it was jews, athetist, whatever, if the room is free, it should be available to them. It's peculiar, stinks and downright wrong for the uni to be acting this way as LONG as the room is free. Why they need to change the arrangement from previous years is weird. That's why the argument of "them muslims always asking for special treatment" is void here.

Also, the orgy example is just :facepalm2: Why do people feel the need to come up with the most extreme example? It's like the little kid that thinks shouting works the best. Pathetic really. But, at least you've grasp the concept that uni should make it open to students for many things as long as it is legal and cause no damages to the building- unfortunately for you, an orgy in a public building would be illegal and also increases the possibility of infections spreading. FYI, there have been parties held in lectures room. So, yes, let them do it, no argument here. I've hosted one :ahee: Didn't even book it #badass. And they were cool with it as long as we cleaned it. Lecure rooms aren't solely for education. University isn't solely for education.

The Oxbridge example also shows why the music studies are nothing other than a glorified upper class supercilious attitude to make those of lower echelon feel insignificant. All this studies then to cater towards equipment such as violin, piano, guitar- you know the equipment of choice of the upper class and make lower class people feel less significant. That's why video games- something that has equal cognitive advantages as playing music only ever gets negative press. Oxybrige acceptance =/= intelligence unless you believe in eugenic. But this is digressing and another debate.

Honestly, I really don't know why I'm bothered replying to someone as narrow minded as you, it seems like you've blamed Islam for your shortcoming in life or whatever and just want to attack anything about it as you conversion has suddenly liberated you- not that there aren't many liberated muslims out there. I don't know why you feel the need to bring it up. One can only assume you're bringing it up because you feel the student are asking special treatment. They are not. They aren't asking the uni to build them a mosque or make the room available to them forever. They want the old arrangement they had because the reason for cancelling the arrangement has been questioned. I'm a broken record.

Great quote btw but not relevant here. You could probably take some lesson from it and not alienate people you disagree with. Shows that all you're about is bashing islam, this thread has nothing to do with religion. Please grasp that.
Yes, different people find solace and peace in different things others.HOWEVER this does not mean that social institutions HAVE to accommodate forsuch things, which are almost never universal. It’s completely personal and itshould be up to the individual to gratify their urges for such comforts.Actually, music education IS apart of the curriculum up until year 9. Well I didn’t say praying isn’t good for you;I said it’s wrong to demand that a university cater for such individual needsirrelevant to education.
Ever wondered why Islam bashing is so popular on tsr and why people getso many likes from it? It’s because we all know how overly sensitive Muslimsare about everything.

If a university hall is free and its use is requested for whatever non-educational purpose then there is nothing wrong if the university denies this request. I can think of several good reasons why a university would lie to its Isoc. These Islamic societies have really gotten out of hand in the past few years.

Even if the example is extreme it just proves that it is not always right to use a university hall for absolutely WHATEVER non-educational purpose.You have to formulate a criteria for judging the appropriateness of using the hall for a particular non educational purpose, as clearly not EVERY non-educational use would be appropriate. Why would an orgy be illegal?Everyone would be over 18 and could be using protection.
University is primarily, if not solely, for education. I always assumed lecture theaters are for lectures and presentations. What else do you guys over at QM use them for? I don’t think I’d ever apply to a university that allows students to host parties in its lecture theaters. I’ve certainly never seen this take place at my institution. Maybe that’s why QM is ranked so low in league tables and its reputation is on the decline.
So for you that one example of Oxbridge suggests that musical instruments are for the upper classes? You must be having a laugh. Music is the most universal expression of humanity there is. Your argument is invalid- Even if access to learning instruments especially in this country can sometimes be limited to those who are well off, it does not mean that learning an instrument does not contribute to intelligence. It just unfortunately means that sometimes only those who are well off can develop their cognitive abilities through musical education. I’m from a strong working class background myself but that’s never stopped me from having access to developing my musical abilities. I agree, Oxbridge applicants are NOT always necessarily smart but generally they tend to have excellent intellectual qualities.
Well yes absolutely, freedom was just a word till the day I left Islam. I guess I’ve just realised how detrimental that particular religion is for society. It’s honestly unlike any other creed or ideology out there. What really frightens me is its inability to take a perfectly reasonable ‘no’ for answer.
This thread IS about religion. I created it, I know. It’s about the campaign of Muslim students at QM asking for a university to meet their religious needs.
The quote just shows that Muslim students, if they truly loved God,could pray anywhere. They shouldn’t always expect praying to be made so convenient for them.

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#197
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
:rofl: So it went from "they have a right to campaign" to they managed to "force" :facepalm:

What is the point of any campaign or protest :rolleyes: To have their voices heard........the uni recognised there was clearly inadequate space for friday prayers.

Stop saying "Public"......the halls aren't open to anyone unless its booked out, and society is more than welcome to do so.
Segregation doesn't as its a rule of the society.
Why do you expect it to be highly unlikely for them to allow a clubbing event or wild party, provided they meet health and safety regulation, yet expect them to allow usage for communal prayer? Well I can assure you that most universities hold societal events in their bars, classrooms or local pubs rather than in halls and lecture theatres. Societies are allowed access to halls and lecture theatres if they wish to use it for public presentations.
Yes I’m comparing both, but I am doing so being aware that this in practice would never be the case. I am simply asking you a question because the sentiments involved in each case are the same. The sentiments Muslims would feel if non-Muslims demanded a mosque (a religious establishment) to meet non-religious needs is similar to what non-Muslims would feel if a secular institution is demanded to cater for religious needs.
Well everyone would agree that society changes, culture changes and humanity changes. Following scripture that does not change seems absurd. Take slavery for example, according to the Quran we are permitted to have slaves. It encourages us to free them, but Islamically speaking nothing is wrong with slavery. Surely in today’s world this view cannot stand, can it?
Yes you have a right to campaign, but in this case this right was misused to force QM to meet your demands when it clearly had no obligation to do so. Rather than recognizing that there is inadequate space they more likely gave into your demands because they were at risk of being seen as Muslim hating bigots. That particular fear, often propagated by the prominent lefty media, has given Islam too much power in our society.
Well the halls are not private, are they? Or else they would not be open to public bookings. So rules of Islamic societies are exempt from following rules of the SU and university?
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
Why do you expect it to be highly unlikely for them to allow a clubbing event or wild party, provided they meet health and safety regulation, yet expect them to allow usage for communal prayer?

Its bloody common sense.......... they wouldn't allow it to happen, especially a place with alcohol, plus you have drapers bar which can be hired out, and 2ndly no society does that.

Well I can assure you that most universities hold societal events in their bars, classrooms or local pubs rather than in halls and lecture theatres. Societies are allowed access to halls and lecture theatres if they wish to use it for public presentations.


Yes I know that............however only the ISOC has ever used either of the halls during my stay at QM, no other society has ever needed to book such a large place.

Yes I’m comparing both, but I am doing so being aware that this in practice would never be the case. I am simply asking you a question because the sentiments involved in each case are the same. The sentiments Muslims would feel if non-Muslims demanded a mosque (a religious establishment) to meet non-religious needs is similar to what non-Muslims would feel if a secular institution is demanded to cater for religious needs.

But you just said you won't.......now you are.
They aren't the same...........hugely different, comparing a place which only Muslims use to a place which caters for all people. Vastly different and yet you're comparing them to get the bias answer you want.


Well everyone would agree that society changes, culture changes and humanity changes. Following scripture that does not change seems absurd. Take slavery for example, according to the Quran we are permitted to have slaves. It encourages us to free them, but Islamically speaking nothing is wrong with slavery. Surely in today’s world this view cannot stand, can it?

What seems absurd is that you expect a religion which billions feel is the word of God to be changed to suit your needs, thats not the word of God, but makes you happy.

Yes you have a right to campaign, but in this case this right was misused to force QM to meet your demands when it clearly had no obligation to do so. Rather than recognizing that there is inadequate space they more likely gave into your demands because they were at risk of being seen as Muslim hating bigots. That particular fear, often propagated by the prominent lefty media, has given Islam too much power in our society.
Well the halls are not private, are they? Or else they would not be open to public bookings. So rules of Islamic societies are exempt from following rules of the SU and university?
Hahahaha the utter amount of non-sense you spouse.........íts quite clear you have a bías in your argument.
One mínute they can campaign next minute or no they shouldn't be, etc you don't decide what is right and what ísn't.....íf they want to campíagn then they can, íf the uníversity wants to change íts mínd then í can, ís símply not up to you.

They can be híred out, but no external group híres it out, mainly internal groups and hence they follow the rules.
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
Yes, different people find solace and peace in different things others.HOWEVER this does not mean that social institutions HAVE to accommodate forsuch things, which are almost never universal. It’s completely personal and itshould be up to the individual to gratify their urges for such comforts.Actually, music education IS apart of the curriculum up until year 9. Well I didn’t say praying isn’t good for you;I said it’s wrong to demand that a university cater for such individual needsirrelevant to education.
Ever wondered why Islam bashing is so popular on tsr and why people getso many likes from it? It’s because we all know how overly sensitive Muslimsare about everything.

If a university hall is free and its use is requested for whatever non-educational purpose then there is nothing wrong if the university denies this request. I can think of several good reasons why a university would lie to its Isoc. These Islamic societies have really gotten out of hand in the past few years.

Even if the example is extreme it just proves that it is not always right to use a university hall for absolutely WHATEVER non-educational purpose.You have to formulate a criteria for judging the appropriateness of using the hall for a particular non educational purpose, as clearly not EVERY non-educational use would be appropriate. Why would an orgy be illegal?Everyone would be over 18 and could be using protection.
University is primarily, if not solely, for education. I always assumed lecture theaters are for lectures and presentations. What else do you guys over at QM use them for? I don’t think I’d ever apply to a university that allows students to host parties in its lecture theaters. I’ve certainly never seen this take place at my institution. Maybe that’s why QM is ranked so low in league tables and its reputation is on the decline.
So for you that one example of Oxbridge suggests that musical instruments are for the upper classes? You must be having a laugh. Music is the most universal expression of humanity there is. Your argument is invalid- Even if access to learning instruments especially in this country can sometimes be limited to those who are well off, it does not mean that learning an instrument does not contribute to intelligence. It just unfortunately means that sometimes only those who are well off can develop their cognitive abilities through musical education. I’m from a strong working class background myself but that’s never stopped me from having access to developing my musical abilities. I agree, Oxbridge applicants are NOT always necessarily smart but generally they tend to have excellent intellectual qualities.
Well yes absolutely, freedom was just a word till the day I left Islam. I guess I’ve just realised how detrimental that particular religion is for society. It’s honestly unlike any other creed or ideology out there. What really frightens me is its inability to take a perfectly reasonable ‘no’ for answer.
This thread IS about religion. I created it, I know. It’s about the campaign of Muslim students at QM asking for a university to meet their religious needs.
The quote just shows that Muslim students, if they truly loved God,could pray anywhere. They shouldn’t always expect praying to be made so convenient for them.

Stop typing, you're just arguing for the sake of it and making stupid comments such as ...'music is part of education up to the age of 9' when we are talking about university. PE is part of education up to age of 16, no ****ing uni provides any physical activity................ I mean sweet brother malcolm, get a grib. Cba asked with you.
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(Original post by MedicalMike)
In the last census I listed my religion as 'Jedi"...

However, I am dissatisfied with the worship facilities at my university and do not want to worship at home, (which my religion states I actually AM allowed to do as the force is omnipresent meaning I am able to connect anywhere, but I just don't want to).

Obviously it is the responsibility of my University to let me have a lecture hall every friday night though so that I can watch star wars and appreciate the force. It is my religion after all isn't it?!
Well yeah, this is actually encouraged. Do it.

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
It's a valid, if tacit, point. If he says that's his religion, who are you to say otherwise? Or are you proposing that religions should have to register with the government and be officially recognized in order to rely on religion-linked rights and expectations? Or should people have to submit to lie detector tests? Or should we just appoint you as the dictator of religion and you can say what is a real religion and what is not?

By calling it satire, it would appear you've missed the point. They're both made-up religions, they both exist only inside the head of the believer, both are entitled to equal protection under the law and reasonable accommodation in connection with sincerely held beliefs. By calling it satire, it allows you to avoid thinking about the very real similarities between Jedi-ism and Islam (and indeed all theism) in terms of what its practitioners are owed viz. reasonable adjustments.

P.S. Just in case my point didn't come through, a prayer room is a reasonable adjustment. Demanding that you be allowed to create a house of worship within the university is not
.
Then what are you complaining about? They are not asking for a mosque to be build? Nice of you to serendipitously ignore my comment.
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