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    Before going into more detail, let's just increase my rent to something that's broadly in line with the national average. But first I'd just like to stress again that I do not have a car: -

    I have an income of 16k a year. I don't earn 16k a year. This is important in terms of tax and NI, as much of my income is not taxable. But even assume I do earn all my 16k a year, then: -

    £400 pm rent
    £100 Bills
    £200 food
    £100 clothes
    £200 social/hobbies
    £100 emergencies

    That's just over 13k. Haven't included council tax but I do have an an emergency fund and have perhaps overestimated one or two other things.

    Then add £2 - 3k in NI and tax.

    This takes up my 16k "salary".

    So my point remains, I think a 22k - 25k salary is sufficient in order to run a car.

    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    The issue here is your rent (or lack of issue for you )
    The average is £500.
    More like £400.

    I know my rent is cheap. Which is one reason why I can save money. I have never hid this.

    I can still chose to get my own place, or share a two bedroom property, for £400 a month on my current income. So I don't need to earn more. My earnings will still cover the additional rent and council tax.

    My second house in Durham, which I rented myself, was £380 a month (and really not worth that, it was a dump). But I was still able to rent this, and cover bills, comfortably enough as a student, with an income half of my current income.

    £215 and no bills
    Officially I am supposed to be paying bills, it's just my housemate who is in charge of the bills has never wanted for the money. We're well in credit with the companies and he's hoping to sell a lot of stuff to put in a "bills fund", then will look to see what everyone owes if anything.

    So with bills included, going by previous experience, it'd be at £100 or so a month.

    I've still been putting "bill money" to one side since living here.

    As I said, deduct a further 400pcm to make up for normal rent, and as you are PT I'm guessing you don't pay into a pension scheme (100pcm) or pay back your student loan (another 100pcm)
    No. Even a full time worker on 16k won't pay off student loans as it's under the threshold. I said this in my last post. Whether someone is FT or PT is irrelevant. What is relevant is their income.

    I'm 20 hours a week, plus a second job which is a zero hours graduate job. I can pay into a pension if I want to. It's just pointless as I'll be leaving to travel, then study, in two years. I haven't bothered including a pension in calculations though as I (perhaps wrongly) assumed the OP was referring to just living a carefree couple of years as as a young person with no dependents. No mention was made on pension or savings in his post.

    So it is a combination of super cheap rent, and earn more = taxed more etc as 10k more only equates in real terms to about 500 more a month at most after tax....which is then what goes into the car.
    I don't have a car.

    You really think I'm suggesting that it's possibly to have a decent living, and own a car, on 15 or 16k a year? I'm not.
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    (Original post by will2348)
    Bear in mind, the average housing costs are over 300k to buy in London so a 75k salary is only just sufficient for this. Might not be what the OP described but most people would consider being able to buy their own house 'decent'.

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    No, he doesn't. I'm largely taking this as a young person in their 20s with no dependents and is happy renting for 2 - 3 years, before perhaps settling down and will therefore look to earn more. Maybe happy renting all their life, which is more common on the continent.

    Besides, most first time buyers will be looking at cheaper properties, or the special schemes that allow you to get a mortgage for part of the property, and rent the rest out to pay off the remaining part of the mortgage.

    For example, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, my brother had a salary of 25k when he first came to London in 2008, around 50k now, and has been able to get onto the property ladder easily enough. A young professionals/first time buyers apartment in Shadwell.
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    (Original post by River85)
    I have an income of 16k a year. I don't earn 16k a year. This is important in terms of tax and NI, as much of my income is not taxable. But even assume I do earn all my 16k a year, then: -

    £400 pm rent
    £100 Bills
    £200 food
    £100 clothes
    £200 social/hobbies
    £100 emergencies

    That's just over 13k. Haven't included council tax but I do have an an emergency fund and have perhaps overestimated one or two other things.

    Then add £2 - 3k in NI and tax.

    This takes up my 16k "salary".

    So my point remains, I think a 22k - 25k salary is sufficient in order to run a car
    I suppose it's all about choices. I earn £25k and wouldn't say I'd run a car unless I had to. I probably could, but other things would have to go.

    I currently clear about £1500 a month after tax/NI/pension.

    Rent - £310
    Bills - c£120
    Food - c£100
    Transport - £60
    Credit card bill - £120
    Student overdraft- £50
    Social - £300

    ... Leaves me something around £450-500 each month depending on exact figures to put into savings.

    I think I have a decent wage for my stage in life and would take issue with anyone claiming otherwise.

    It's a different story as soon as you start adding in dependants, though, which is why I have the £35-40k figure I did in my first post.


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    A single person can easily live off 25k a year. Kids/families cost ;/
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    (Original post by de_monies)
    Ok so I will go to bed after this post (self constraint etc.. ) but I have a 3.7K car (at the time) and I earn 12.5K

    before my "earnings " were around half that due to student loans though I had this little thing called "savings"
    And what is the cost of your rent/cost of living, and who gave you these savings etc?
    Plus savings are a finite supply thus such an idea is unsustainable in the long run.

    NB. if you only earn 12.5k, then you won't pay back your student loan...
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    And what is the cost of your rent/cost of living, and who gave you these savings etc?
    Plus savings are a finite supply thus such an idea is unsustainable in the long run.

    NB. if you only earn 12.5k, then you won't pay back your student loan...
    Cost of living - uni £272/month + bills of around £40/month
    Insurance cost £1800 last year
    Fuel costs - around £150/year on fuel locally
    Around £350 annually to go home and back

    Also, back "home" rent would be rent free, though insurance would cost me £4000 last year, and if I were to pay rent it'd be £150/month (House share) or £350/month for an entire house

    This year:
    Cost of living - £250/month + bills
    Insurance - £812.57
    Fuel costs - roughly as before

    Savings over a bloody long time

    And yes savings can be a finite supply, or they can just be... saved

    I know... and I don't have to pay tax, and I'm on placement, and as a result of the placement, if I really wanted to, I could quite easily get a nicer car if I wanted to, but that'd be cutting a LOT in to savings, so Ill wait four more years, before I hopefully get a VW golf bluemotion

    What's your point with regards to not paying off my student loan with 12.5K?

    Well I can't because a huge chunk I can't access until September and December this year, and I've loaned out £1000 for around 5 years (100 little loans)

    And then I'd hope to get myself a graduate job in a couple of years, bang centre in London with a starting salary of 27K (Well that's where I want to go)

    I think I worked out, that 25K post tax would do a family of five (outside of London) quite well
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    x
    You still haven't explained why I need an additional 10 - 12k in income to run a car. 6k extra, to make an income of 22k, is probably sufficient.
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    (Original post by de_monies)
    Cost of living - uni £272/month + bills of around £40/month
    Insurance cost £1800 last year
    Fuel costs - around £150/year on fuel locally
    Around £350 annually to go home and back

    Also, back "home" rent would be rent free, though insurance would cost me £4000 last year, and if I were to pay rent it'd be £150/month (House share) or £350/month for an entire house

    This year:
    Cost of living - £250/month + bills
    Insurance - £812.57
    Fuel costs - roughly as before

    Savings over a bloody long time

    And yes savings can be a finite supply, or they can just be... saved

    I know... and I don't have to pay tax, and I'm on placement, and as a result of the placement, if I really wanted to, I could quite easily get a nicer car if I wanted to, but that'd be cutting a LOT in to savings, so Ill wait four more years, before I hopefully get a VW golf bluemotion

    What's your point with regards to not paying off my student loan with 12.5K?

    Well I can't because a huge chunk I can't access until September and December this year, and I've loaned out £1000 for around 5 years (100 little loans)

    And then I'd hope to get myself a graduate job in a couple of years, bang centre in London with a starting salary of 27K (Well that's where I want to go)

    I think I worked out, that 25K post tax would do a family of five (outside of London) quite well
    As I have mentioned, all of those bills are very unrealistic in most places. Rent is the large part of most peoples income, and that is after a vast amount is lost in tax and all the extras I mentioned.

    Pro-tip, don't blow money on a new car. Get a deposit instead. Seriously, the amount of people I see wasting 10-15k on a car which in 4 years will be worth a fraction of that when they could have got a house is just scary.

    Have you worked out how much you need to earn to have 25k post tax? Also it depends on standard of living. If you want 2 cars, nice holidays, 3 kids, good house - you need 60k.


    (Original post by River85)
    You still haven't explained why I need an additional 10 - 12k in income to run a car. 6k extra, to make an income of 22k, is probably sufficient.
    Wow, well you just dodged everything I asked you.
    Do the maths or look above. You lose so much in tax and other overheads you need that much more to run a car and live well.
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    Wow, well you just dodged everything I asked you.
    I certainly did not.

    You pointed out my rent was very cheap (which I already admitted to). But I can still manage a more average rent of £400 a month on my current income.

    Besides, in most cities in the UK I don't think £200 - £300 for what's still a particularly decent house is too hard to come by. It's all about budgeting and realising that you aren't necessarily going to live in the best area, or as nice a house as you ideally might like to. But it still provides shelter and is comfortable.

    Do the maths or look above. You lose so much in tax and other overheads you need that much more to run a car and live well.
    I have done the maths. They are above. But I will repeat.

    Earning 22k will give me a take home pay of about 17k after tax, NI and student loan repayments. This is enough to meet all costs, leaving between £30 - £100 a week free for running a car, depending on budget.

    So let's make it 25k for something a bit more comfortable. This is still less than your 28k+.

    Also, although the OP does mention a car, it isn't a necessity in any urban area.

    I know plenty of people with sub-20k incomes who are able to have at least one car, even if it's second hand. These people are not well off but they managed reasonably comfortably.

    Do you have any hard evidence that running a car is so expensive? As I said, even the RAC's estimate was under 7k a year. The AA's estimate lower.
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    As I have mentioned, all of those bills are very unrealistic in most places. Rent is the large part of most peoples income, and that is after a vast amount is lost in tax and all the extras I mentioned.

    Pro-tip, don't blow money on a new car. Get a deposit instead. Seriously, the amount of people I see wasting 10-15k on a car which in 4 years will be worth a fraction of that when they could have got a house is just scary.

    Have you worked out how much you need to earn to have 25k post tax? Also it depends on standard of living. If you want 2 cars, nice holidays, 3 kids, good house - you need 60k.




    Wow, well you just dodged everything I asked you.
    Do the maths or look above. You lose so much in tax and other overheads you need that much more to run a car and live well.
    Well at my first year of uni I was able to live on 5K

    Second year almost 8K because of my car insurance

    This year I can live on 5K as well I reckon (based on 10 months) or 6K for the entire year

    And at uni around half my "earnings" did go on rent but atm a third go on rent. I'd be able to have half (ie: £500/month) go on rent easy and thats just with 12.5K

    I dont intend to. I never intend to. I intend to buy a vw golf bluemotion 2013/2014 around 2017/3018 (or similar cars)

    Also what houses do you see for 10-15K

    With student loans I'd say just under 36K

    Also ive taken the entire £2000 od ive been given by Co Op and popped it in a savings account and again ive loaned out £1000 for 5 years to around 100 people across the UK

    I can live well on less

    Of course I'd like to earn more, I'd like to gave a bigger house, a nicer car etc... So Im using where I am as a stepping stone

    And then once a mortgage is paid for, living costs around the UK sorta even out though electricity and gas prices would probably actually be cheaper in the south owing to the south getting more sun than here

    Once a mortgage is paid for, its a huge chunk saved (or for you to buy another house)

    I should expect at least 45K ("officially" ) though some even more senior positions are offering 60K and at the really top end which I doubt I'd reach 90K+

    And I'd hope a future spouse earns *something*

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    (Original post by de_monies)
    Well at my first year of uni I was able to live on 5K

    Second year almost 8K because of my car insurance

    This year I can live on 5K as well I reckon (based on 10 months) or 6K for the entire year

    And at uni around half my "earnings" did go on rent but atm a third go on rent. I'd be able to have half (ie: £500/month) go on rent easy and thats just with 12.5K

    I dont intend to. I never intend to. I intend to buy a vw golf bluemotion 2013/2014 around 2017/3018 (or similar cars)

    Also what houses do you see for 10-15K

    With student loans I'd say just under 36K

    Also ive taken the entire £2000 od ive been given by Co Op and popped it in a savings account and again ive loaned out £1000 for 5 years to around 100 people across the UK

    I can live well on less

    Of course I'd like to earn more, I'd like to gave a bigger house, a nicer car etc... So Im using where I am as a stepping stone

    And then once a mortgage is paid for, living costs around the UK sorta even out though electricity and gas prices would probably actually be cheaper in the south owing to the south getting more sun than here

    Once a mortgage is paid for, its a huge chunk saved (or for you to buy another house)

    I should expect at least 45K ("officially" ) though some even more senior positions are offering 60K and at the really top end which I doubt I'd reach 90K+

    And I'd hope a future spouse earns *something*

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    The issue here is that I think you are unfamiliar with a payslip and just how much disappears on tax. If you earn £25k, you are only going to see £1500 pcm, Now deduct the £500 for rent, £80 for bills, £200 for food and you are already at 720. Keep going with hobbies and nights out and blam, now you are at the few hundred it takes to keep your car going.

    Sadly, no house is 15-20k, but that is 10% deposit for many. You never pay for a house upfront.


    (Original post by River85)
    I certainly did not.

    You pointed out my rent was very cheap (which I already admitted to). But I can still manage a more average rent of £400 a month on my current income.

    Besides, in most cities in the UK I don't think £200 - £300 for what's still a particularly decent house is too hard to come by. It's all about budgeting and realising that you aren't necessarily going to live in the best area, or as nice a house as you ideally might like to. But it still provides shelter and is comfortable.



    I have done the maths. They are above. But I will repeat.

    Earning 22k will give me a take home pay of about 17k after tax, NI and student loan repayments. This is enough to meet all costs, leaving between £30 - £100 a week free for running a car, depending on budget.

    So let's make it 25k for something a bit more comfortable. This is still less than your 28k+.

    Also, although the OP does mention a car, it isn't a necessity in any urban area.

    I know plenty of people with sub-20k incomes who are able to have at least one car, even if it's second hand. These people are not well off but they managed reasonably comfortably.

    Do you have any hard evidence that running a car is so expensive? As I said, even the RAC's estimate was under 7k a year. The AA's estimate lower.
    Ah, it only linked me to the short answer you gave.

    £400 pcm average? You sure as rent across the UK is rapidly increasing and down in London area you are looking at easy 600+ for share, and 725+ for single occupancy.

    Pension and student loan is another £200 pcm of tax bs that people tend to forget about. It is a real kick in the balls and as they say, when you earn more, you always end up spending more but getting nothing more


    The thing you need to remember is OP asking to run a car AND live well. That is the key. Sure you can do it for less, but I hope you like buying cheap food, having a social life that never involves going out etc. Also I think too many people waste their money on a car when they could save for a house. That is far more important as it only goes up in value!

    NB. I was reading that 80% of new jobs in the last few years have been in or around London, so sure, cheap rent may exist, but the reality is that most people will have to deal with London if they are aiming for a career.
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    To buy a house have a car? id say atleast £40,000 my boyfriends on £35,000 and even he is struggling to buy a very small house
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    Ah, it only linked me to the short answer you gave.

    £400 pcm average? You sure as rent across the UK is rapidly increasing and down in London area you are looking at easy 600+ for share, and 725+ for single
    Averages I've seen in the media tend to be around the £400 mark for shared accommodation, though perhaps a year or two old.

    Even in London it's possible to get a rent of £300. As mentioned earlier, my brother was able to find two separate properties in Leytonstone for £250 a month between 2008 and 2011. Central London, perhaps not. But Greater London, yes.

    Pension and student loan is another £200 pcm of tax bs that people tend to forget about. It is a real kick in the balls and as they say, when you earn more, you always end up spending more but getting nothing more
    I already deducted student loan repayments, which would be about £500 on a 22k income. I assume the OP is a graduate with student loans, but might be incorrect in this assumption.

    Pensions I didn't include, but the OP didn't mention them. Nowhere were savings or pensions mentioned. Even if saving for a pension is strongly advised, I don't think a young person in their early 20s will be too disadvantaged should they be unable to pay into a pension scheme for just 2 or 3 years.

    As I said, I got the impression the OP is just looking to live the live of a young, relatively carefree person with no dependents for a few years. Once they want a better life/a pension they could look at earning more.

    The thing you need to remember is OP asking to run a car AND live well.
    He wants a car and to live "decently", not necessarily "well" which, to him, is a couple of nights out. Nowhere has he given any indication that he has expensive lifestyle tastes, large food bill, wants to eat takeaways or go to restaurants, or has a medical condition which could reduce in greater costs.

    That is the key. Sure you can do it for less, but I hope you like buying cheap food, having a social life that never involves going out etc. Also I think too many people waste their money on a car when they could save for a house. That is far more important as it only goes up in value!
    Yes, which is why I'm going for more like 25k, to give that little more comfort and spare cash.

    NB. I was reading that 80% of new jobs in the last few years have been in or around London, so sure, cheap rent may exist, but the reality is that most people will have to deal with London if they are aiming for a career.
    Most people I know manage a career without going near London. Only one friend and my brother moved there, and that was out of choice as jobs were available here.

    But cheap rents are available in London anyway if you look. Plus living in London, or any urban area, you don't need a car and the minority don't bother in inner London in my opinion. If the OP, or anyone else, lives in London they'd find they probably wouldn't bother getting/using the car.
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    I'm going to be happy with a starting salary of £21k when I graduate as a teacher. Will not lie, happy when it goes up but I think that as a starting salary is decent!
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    The issue here is that I think you are unfamiliar with a payslip and just how much disappears on tax. If you earn £25k, you are only going to see £1500 pcm, Now deduct the £500 for rent, £80 for bills, £200 for food and you are already at 720. Keep going with hobbies and nights out and blam, now you are at the few hundred it takes to keep your car going.
    If you read, I said that 25K post tax, would do a family of 5. I mean I can live perfectly well by myself for 6K. 25K would do a family of five easy (with money left over)

    "Few hundreds" lol. Insurance costs "few hundreds" yes, but it's getting lower and lower. Service/MOT, perhaps take it to another £300 extra/year

    And my car itself, for driving is pretty economical - giving me 60Mpg long distance, and 33Mpg "locally" Locally, being I cba walking at 8am to work for 1.6 miles. Ill happily walk back at 5pm, but I don't really want to walk in at 8am - though perhaps in the summer (Making my car cheaper to run)

    Also, in the summer, I find it's cheaper again for me to run my car, because the auto stop feature, kicks in a lot more readily - though fuel is cheaper in the winter. Swings and roundabouts. Any way, I digress a little. Running a car isn't cheap, but nor is it ridiculously expensive, unless you happen to live where I do in the north (Whereby any rent/mortgage payments are far, far lower, and would cancel the insurance costs out)

    Im lucky in the sense that I live pretty close-ish to Leeds, which is pretty decent because it's the second largest for financial, legal, and business services (Well it regularly competes with Edinburgh, but I found that Edinburgh was considerably more expensive to roam about in)

    And not only that, it's cheaper to live in the north as well. Let's say we rent out a house at £350/month for a 3 bedroom (terraced) house. That's far, far cheaper than any where I've lived, and when I made those calculations, I was using a house costing £800/month (on mortgage), in my calculations

    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    Sadly, no house is 15-20k, but that is 10% deposit for many. You never pay for a house upfront.
    No, but you really shouldn't be looking to buy a house with 10% deposit imo



    £400 pcm average? You sure as rent across the UK is rapidly increasing and down in London area you are looking at easy 600+ for share, and 725+ for single occupancy.
    Hence the London wage. The job Im going for as a grad job pays around 5 - 7K more than the north, and I'd assume one reason IS because it's in central London

    And also, if Im going to live in London, I wouldn't be using my car all that much at all
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    To live comfortably and with a little to spare for luxuries like holidays?

    I live in the North-West and so I would imagine that you could achieve the above with ~£40k per annum. I'd be relatively happy on £40k per year.

    (Original post by lindars)
    I'm going to be happy with a starting salary of £21k when I graduate as a teacher. Will not lie, happy when it goes up but I think that as a starting salary is decent!
    Junior Doctors start on ~£22k, so that's not bad at all! Is that for secondary or primary, and who sets your wage now that every-chuffing-where is an academy?
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    For me, anything over £40k in London would be able to provide for a family and still be able to save (as far as I'm aware), and so would be a decent (as in good) salary.

    Unless you mean decent as in "OK", in which case I bump it down to £32k.
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    Well I earn pretty well above the average(~20k more, depending on which stats you go off) and lets just say I'm in no way struggling for anything.
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    (Original post by Vian)
    For me, anything over £40k in London would be able to provide for a family and still be able to save (as far as I'm aware), and so would be a decent (as in good) salary.

    Unless you mean decent as in "OK", in which case I bump it down to £32k.
    Well he clearly explains decent in his opening post, no mention of holidays or savings, let alone a family to support. Just a young person with no dependents who wants to go out a couple of times a week.

    I've yet to find anyone who's shown me that it's not possible to live reasonably comfortably in London on 30k and still have enough money to put into savings.
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    (Original post by River85)
    Well he clearly explains decent in his opening post, no mention of holidays or savings, let alone a family to support. Just a young person with no dependents who wants to go out a couple of times a week.

    I've yet to find anyone who's shown me that it's not possible to live reasonably comfortably in London on 30k and still have enough money to put into savings.
    I thought I had read the OP, but it seems I skipped straight to the responses. :doh:

    In that case, £30k-£32k sounds about right, but seeing as I'm just a measly first year with little real world experience...
 
 
 
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