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    (Original post by Steevee)
    Fair enough, but modern Feminism has alienated most and has certainly lost it's claim to being impartially egalitarian.

    I wonder, do you buy into the narrative about victim-blaming and slut-shaming as a real problem? It seems to me to be something that characterises the modern Feminist movement. There is a small percentage of people, a very small percentage, of both genders that actually engage in such behavior, but it presented by the modern Feminist movement as a huge problem. You get the same issue surrounding rape culture. The issue is blown out of all proportion by the Feminist agenda, then propagated by it and you end up simply alienating men from your cause.
    I think things like Staubenville made me feel slut shaming and rape culture is still an issue. Rape culture is a real issue of mine because I have been a victim of it and so have others I know. When you see a guy walking out a club dragging an unconscious girl laughing about he's going to get laid, and behaviour of that ilk as regularly as you do at Uni then the alarm bells do start to go that this is a bigger problem than you were aware of previously. I wouldn't say I alienate men with it though, most of my male friends are on side having seen it with their own eyes.

    I'd defy you to find more than 1 in 100 people that honestly believe 'She was wearing that so she was asking for it!' or similar, heck I think 1 in 100 would be rather high, and yet this is presented as such a huge issue? And because of the emotive nature of the issue you see people who are genuinely trying to help, such as advising women how to avoid attack in some situations, be branded as Misogynists, which again simply alienates yet more men from this modern brand of Feminism. Modern Feminism seems to be combative at every turn and everything is blamed on men, either explicitly such as with 'Rape Culture' or implicitly with the 'Patriarchy' argument. Surely you can see why it's difficult for any man to even want to align themselves with the modern Feminist movement?
    I wouldn't say that was my main issue at all, it's more 'it's ok to have sex with a girl who is so drunk she can barely see' and not understanding having sex with an unconscious girl constitutes rape. Then things like judging someones worth as a friend on how many people they have slept with.

    I date a male feminist so I don't think it can be THAT difficult! You just need to accept feminism is a movement and different people within it have different views. It is what you make it. I don't judge all right wingers by the BNP or all left wingers by the USSR or all black rights activists by Malcom X.
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    (Original post by CJKay)
    Like I said, that's up to the medical boards to decide - not you or any "feminist".

    Mental health issues come under medical issues.
    but the current limit is set by medical boards...

    I'm on the side of science and evidence where it is available over any bias I may hold.
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    (Original post by Eva.Gregoria)
    Specifically the women hating men. It's scary how many men really despise women on here.

    I didn't care much for feminism before I came here but this has really opened my eyes on how much hate women received in the past and that they continue to receive even now. I've only been here since November last year and I'm sure there have been in excess of a 100 woman hating threads.

    It's truly terrifying what many men think about women out there. The fact that its anonymous opinions really could only mean that many people you see in real life have this horrible opinions. How did this happen?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    For clarity, add a hyphen -

    'women-hating men'.
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    Hate women? Where? The only women-hating I see going on on TSR is the hating of the "feminist"-whiners who won't shut up! Men do not hate women.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    I think things like Staubenville made me feel slut shaming and rape culture is still an issue. Rape culture is a real issue of mine because I have been a victim of it and so have others I know. When you see a guy walking out a club dragging an unconscious girl laughing about he's going to get laid, and behaviour of that ilk as regularly as you do at Uni then the alarm bells do start to go that this is a bigger problem than you were aware of previously. I wouldn't say I alienate men with it though, most of my male friends are on side having seen it with their own eyes.



    I wouldn't say that was my main issue at all, it's more 'it's ok to have sex with a girl who is so drunk she can barely see' and not understanding having sex with an unconscious girl constitutes rape. Then things like judging someones worth as a friend on how many people they have slept with.

    I date a male feminist so I don't think it can be THAT difficult! You just need to accept feminism is a movement and different people within it have different views. It is what you make it. I don't judge all right wingers by the BNP or all left wingers by the USSR or all black rights activists by Malcom X.
    Well I'd disagree that such a thing is 'Rape Culture,' this is a moniker you Feminists have given such a thing. Staubenville is not an example of 'Rape Culture' it's an example of people of one group supporting their own, you'll find the condemnation of the boys involved was widespread, the defense was minimal and from a few select sources. Those sources had a vested interest in the males, be it family, friends, or one or two news media outlets in the US that are traditionally defenders of the athletic young man. This is the issue I have with 'Rape Culture,' in order for it to be such a thing it would have to be a culture, it is not. And many a time the drunk girl is walking out with an equally drunk guy, there is an issue around consent to be sure, but there is also an issue around personal responsibility and knowing a situation before you pass judgement. I've more than once supported a girl out of a club when she was too drunk and taken her home, in one instance I went on to do things with that girl, but there was consent before, during and afterwards. Other times I have supported a girl home when drunk and done nothing either out because I or they were too drunk or simply because I was helping them home. Again, there is an issue around certain groups of people being ready to accuse and being ready to abdicate responsibility.

    And again, men know not to have sex with an unconscious girl. Drunk consent is a contentious issue.

    I imagine your male feminist has the same views as you? Let us say the majority of men are alienated by the modern brand of vocal Feminism, the likes of which you see on Tumblr, in Wordpress blogs and on Youtube.
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    (Original post by The_Dragonborn)
    Hate women? Where? The only women-hating I see going on on TSR is the hating of the "feminist"-whiners who won't shut up! Men do not hate women.
    There are plenty of men who hate women. That's not to say they hate them for the duration of their lives (given that it seems the hate is often down to limited meaningful interaction with a range of women, combined with various frustrations), or that it's anything but a tiny minority. But of course there are men who hate women.
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    It'd be nice if people stopped making issues gender based when they are in fact class based.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    Well I'd disagree that such a thing is 'Rape Culture,' this is a moniker you Feminists have given such a thing. Staubenville is not an example of 'Rape Culture' it's an example of people of one group supporting their own, you'll find the condemnation of the boys involved was widespread, the defense was minimal and from a few select sources.
    so you wouldn't say that fox news has a rape culture?

    Those sources had a vested interest in the males, be it family, friends, or one or two news media outlets in the US that are traditionally defenders of the athletic young man. This is the issue I have with 'Rape Culture,' in order for it to be such a thing it would have to be a culture, it is not. And many a time the drunk girl is walking out with an equally drunk guy, there is an issue around consent to be sure, but there is also an issue around personal responsibility and knowing a situation before you pass judgement. I've more than once supported a girl out of a club when she was too drunk and taken her home, in one instance I went on to do things with that girl, but there was consent before, during and afterwards. Other times I have supported a girl home when drunk and done nothing either out because I or they were too drunk or simply because I was helping them home. Again, there is an issue around certain groups of people being ready to accuse and being ready to abdicate responsibility.
    well when you've had someone try to have sex with you when you are asleep and incredibly drunk and not even realise it constituted rape, spoken to your peers and had a similar response off then come back to me and say that you don't think that's a cultural problem. That was my first year of Uni wake up call...

    I just wish people would think a bit more.

    And again, men know not to have sex with an unconscious girl. Drunk consent is a contentious issue.

    I imagine your male feminist has the same views as you? Let us say the majority of men are alienated by the modern brand of vocal Feminism, the likes of which you see on Tumblr, in Wordpress blogs and on Youtube.
    I know most men know! Nah he has different views to me on a number of things but we chat them through and usually one of us goes one way or the other.

    it's difficult. I just think there's generally a problem of genders not empathising with each other, which works both ways.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    so you wouldn't say that fox news has a rape culture?



    well when you've had someone try to have sex with you when you are asleep and incredibly drunk and not even realise it constituted rape, spoken to your peers and had a similar response off then come back to me and say that you don't think that's a cultural problem. That was my first year of Uni wake up call...

    I just wish people would think a bit more.



    I know most men know! Nah he has different views to me on a number of things but we chat them through and usually one of us goes one way or the other.

    it's difficult. I just think there's generally a problem of genders not empathising with each other, which works both ways.
    No, because quite simply a 'Rape culture' is not a thing. It has facets that are certainly objectionable, conservative, behind-the-times and so on, but not a 'Rape culture.' This is like me simply taking parts of the current wave of Feminism that I find objectionable and saying you have a 'Vaginocentric culture!' It's pointless, an utterly meaningless phrase that is intentionally created to stifle debate and demonise the opposition.

    First of all, and with no word of lie, this has happened to me. Secondly, as awful as that may have been for you, a personal experience does not constitute evidence for the claim of a 'culture' that is pervasive and it certainly gives you no right to tacitly imply that it is a culture that a huge portion of the population are part of.

    I suppose you might be right, the biggest problems as ever with any issue, is that the most vocal tend to be the most extreme and combative.
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    (Original post by Eva.Gregoria)
    Specifically the women hating men. It's scary how many men really despise women on here.

    I didn't care much for feminism before I came here but this has really opened my eyes on how much hate women received in the past and that they continue to receive even now. I've only been here since November last year and I'm sure there have been in excess of a 100 woman hating threads.

    It's truly terrifying what many men think about women out there. The fact that its anonymous opinions really could only mean that many people you see in real life have this horrible opinions. How did this happen?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I get your point of concern. Many man have abhorrent, cynical views toward women nowadays, almost like they loath or have some sort of spite toward them. It's men's problem, not women's, these men just look insecure whilst doing it.
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    (Original post by Machop)
    Then why **** would would you be a feminist? How you can achieve gender equality by exclusively focussing on women alone which is what feminism does despite it's claims. There is also good proportion of feminists who absolutely despise men. These days people who genuinely are about womens rights identify themselves as humanists and they tend to care about everyone else's rights as well.
    Right go back, read through everything I said about my interpretation of feminism and tell me where I said anything about exclusively focusing on one gender?

    if by good proportion you mean like I'm an active feminist and I have come across one

    I care about everyones rights and still identify as feminist. I dont want to give a movement that has done so much good over to extremists!
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    (Original post by TheReckless)
    Oh, don't be so ridiculous.
    TSRians don't "hate" each other on the basis of gender; those who do are either in the small minority, or are trolls looking for a reaction, which is exactly what you're giving them here. It's certainly not a thing that happens as much as you make it out to be.
    It's so infuriating how much women jump to the conclusion that men must hate them because of their gender, rather than other factors such as, I don't know, maybe post content? :rolleyes:
    You go sister!
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    No, because quite simply a 'Rape culture' is not a thing. It has facets that are certainly objectionable, conservative, behind-the-times and so on, but not a 'Rape culture.' This is like me simply taking parts of the current wave of Feminism that I find objectionable and saying you have a 'Vaginocentric culture!' It's pointless, an utterly meaningless phrase that is intentionally created to stifle debate and demonise the opposition.
    I think rape culture is the obvious shortening of 'a culture promoting rape' and you are looking into it a bit too much to be honest.

    I quite like the term vaginocentric culture, I might adopt it

    'I'm not a feminist, I'm just part of vaginocentric culture man'

    First of all, and with no word of lie, this has happened to me. Secondly, as awful as that may have been for you, a personal experience does not constitute evidence for the claim of a 'culture' that is pervasive and it certainly gives you no right to tacitly imply that it is a culture that a huge portion of the population are part of.

    I suppose you might be right, the biggest problems as ever with any issue, is that the most vocal tend to be the most extreme and combative.
    Yeah it happened to my bf too. Poor lad.

    I was only saying it shaped my views, not that it proves anything.

    Well can you do me a favour, instead of going 'argh feminism' and dismissing the issues, can you just take them and think about them on your own terms and try and empathise with the people affected by it? Then just make up your own mind. But look out for drunk girls in clubs, just an 'are you ok?' as they are being dragged through the door can help. Horrid **** happens far too often. (and I in turn will continue to look out for guys who are getting bankrupted by girls who think it is cool to con free drinks out of them).
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    I quite agree OP. It's disheartening to see loads of guys on tsr calling women gold digger, sluts and other degrading names.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by TheReckless)
    Oh, don't be so ridiculous.
    TSRians don't "hate" each other on the basis of gender; those who do are either in the small minority, or are trolls looking for a reaction, which is exactly what you're giving them here. It's certainly not a thing that happens as much as you make it out to be.
    It's so infuriating how much women jump to the conclusion that men must hate them because of their gender, rather than other factors such as, I don't know, maybe post content? :rolleyes:
    This.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    I think rape culture is the obvious shortening of 'a culture promoting rape' and you are looking into it a bit too much to be honest.

    I quite like the term vaginocentric culture, I might adopt it

    'I'm not a feminist, I'm just part of vaginocentric culture man'



    Yeah it happened to my bf too. Poor lad.

    I was only saying it shaped my views, not that it proves anything.

    Well can you do me a favour, instead of going 'argh feminism' and dismissing the issues, can you just take them and think about them on your own terms and try and empathise with the people affected by it? Then just make up your own mind. But look out for drunk girls in clubs, just an 'are you ok?' as they are being dragged through the door can help. Horrid **** happens far too often. (and I in turn will continue to look out for guys who are getting bankrupted by girls who think it is cool to con free drinks out of them).
    But here we are at odds again, this culture does not promote rape. In some cases maybe certain people will be on the side of the criminal, that does not equal promoting it. It's like saying that someone who sympathises with a certain assault perpetrator is promoting a GBH society. It is simply not a thing in it's own right, as I said before, it's a device used by Feminists to attempt to stifle opposition and debate. No-one wants to be associated with something so awful sounding as Rape culture, so you throw that label at people and naturally it's going to silence a few. It's not a legitimate tool in debate and it certainly is not a term worthy of any recognition in it's own right. Which is why you'll see it's not used by anyone outside of a few in the modern feminist movement.

    You were implying I was without knowledge because you thought I'd not been through such an experience, perhaps this was not your intent, but it's what you were doing.

    No, I'll not do you any favour, because this is condescension on your part and I don't appreciate it. You're once again showing one of the classic traits of the modern 'Feminist.' Once again you're trying to say I have not thought on the issues and come to my own conclusions, but am ignorant simply because I disagree with you. I wouldn't say these sort of things to you, this level of self-righteousness is yet another thing that alienates people from your cause. I'll make no modification to my behaviour on your account, I'll continue to act as I always have, I have no obligation to look after drunk girls anymore so than drunk boys, infact to imply such would surely be sexist? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    But here we are at odds again, this culture does not promote rape. In some cases maybe certain people will be on the side of the criminal, that does not equal promoting it. It's like saying that someone who sympathises with a certain assault perpetrator is promoting a GBH society. It is simply not a thing in it's own right, as I said before, it's a device used by Feminists to attempt to stifle opposition and debate. No-one wants to be associated with something so awful sounding as Rape culture, so you throw that label at people and naturally it's going to silence a few. It's not a legitimate tool in debate and it certainly is not a term worthy of any recognition in it's own right. Which is why you'll see it's not used by anyone outside of a few in the modern feminist movement.
    I would say that saying the victim of GBH deserved it/brought it on themselves is perpetrating a culture of GBH! But obviously we differ there.

    actually I have heard quite a few people outside that sphere use that term.

    You were implying I was without knowledge because you thought I'd not been through such an experience, perhaps this was not your intent, but it's what you were doing.
    apologies I fully understand that people can have knowledge of an issue without having been through it anyway but I meant more obviously experiences like that will shape your views.

    No, I'll not do you any favour, because this is condescension on your part and I don't appreciate it. You're once again showing one of the classic traits of the modern 'Feminist.' Once again you're trying to say I have not thought on the issues and come to my own conclusions, but am ignorant simply because I disagree with you. I wouldn't say these sort of things to you, this level of self-righteousness is yet another thing that alienates people from your cause. I'll make no modification to my behaviour on your account, I'll continue to act as I always have, I have no obligation to look after drunk girls anymore so than drunk boys, infact to imply such would surely be sexist? :rolleyes:
    I didn't mean to be condescending at all. I was calling a truce and offering a hand in order to work together to get rid of the incredible amount of sexist bs that still goes around in society. You clearly have too many existing prejudices and are too narrow minded to accept that I was genuinely just being nice.

    You also clearly are not the empathetic person you claim to be as you don't want to look out for anyone that may be in trouble.

    I'm clearly not going to get anywhere with you, I put in a real honest effort to explain how I feel about the issue and how bitterness and prejudice won't get you anywhere and all you can do is insult and attack me.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    I would say that saying the victim of GBH deserved it/brought it on themselves is perpetrating a culture of GBH! But obviously we differ there.

    actually I have heard quite a few people outside that sphere use that term.



    apologies I fully understand that people can have knowledge of an issue without having been through it anyway but I meant more obviously experiences like that will shape your views.



    I didn't mean to be condescending at all. I was calling a truce and offering a hand in order to work together to get rid of the incredible amount of sexist bs that still goes around in society. You clearly have too many existing prejudices and are too narrow minded to accept that I was genuinely just being nice.

    You also clearly are not the empathetic person you claim to be as you don't want to look out for anyone that may be in trouble.

    I'm clearly not going to get anywhere with you, I put in a real honest effort to explain how I feel about the issue and how bitterness and prejudice won't get you anywhere and all you can do is insult and attack me.
    Not quite what I said, I said mitigating the attacker or instance is not the same as promoting the crime. I think that's pretty clear is it not?

    Perhaps you need to re-read what you wrote then, it is condescending, quite clearly so. And I said before I'd not modify my behaviour at your behest, you take that to mean I'm just an awful human being that doesn't look out for people? I've thrown no accusations nor called you any names, perhaps you should read over what you've written and what I've written before you start throwing accusations of narrow-mindedness and so forth.

    So let me put this forth another time. I do not appreciate your condescension, though perhaps it was not your intent to be condescending, in which case, use this as instance to make you aware of the tone of some of your posts so that such a misunderstanding does not happen in future. The fact that you are once again blaming my disagreement with you on prejudice as opposed to content is another example of what I'm talking about, your attitude is not the most conducive to reasoned debate.

    I don't think I ever claimed to be an empathetic person by the way. Just as I didn't insult you.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    Perhaps you need to re-read what you wrote then, it is condescending, quite clearly so. And I said before I'd not modify my behaviour at your behest, you take that to mean I'm just an awful human being that doesn't look out for people? I've thrown no accusations nor called you any names, perhaps you should read over what you've written and what I've written before you start throwing accusations of narrow-mindedness and so forth.

    So let me put this forth another time. I do not appreciate your condescension, though perhaps it was not your intent to be condescending, in which case, use this as instance to make you aware of the tone of some of your posts so that such a misunderstanding does not happen in future. The fact that you are once again blaming my disagreement with you on prejudice as opposed to content is another example of what I'm talking about, your attitude is not the most conducive to reasoned debate.
    To give both of you another perspective here, I did not read her response as condescending until you mentioned it, at which point it was very clear how condescending it was.

    I think the common use of such a tone on TSR in these specific situations surrounding this specific topic (and the fact that a lot of the more irritable and dismissive responses to feminist posts actually are by people who are arguing from a position of ignorance while clearly not realising it eg increasingly Robbie242 or whatever his name is, it seems) has blinded me to the implied attitude of it.

    I can therefore completely understand why redferry does not at all think her response came off as condescending and also see that it very much did.
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    (Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
    On my opinion that insitutional sexism is worse than sexism? My opinion?
    No, that institutional sexism exists?
 
 
 
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