Who is the best footballer in history?

Messi is nothing legendary without that GOAT Barca side imho. That midfield was made for him but he'll never be anywhere near as good without it

Reply 181

baconbutty

Original post by Zürich

Messi is nothing legendary without that GOAT Barca side imho. That midfield was made for him but he'll never be anywhere near as good without it

?? He had arguably his two best individual seasons when the midfield was past its peak. Attributing his success to the barca midfield is probably the laziest argument you can make and just shows you've got no idea what you're talking about

Reply 182

ZÃ¼rich

20

Original post by baconbutty

?? He had arguably his two best individual seasons when the midfield was past its peak. Attributing his success to the barca midfield is probably the laziest argument you can make and just shows you've got no idea what you're talking about

Well I've watched him live twice and it seemed clear to me that trying to judge Messi in isolation without acknowledging what a platform his midfield gave him, is folly. Midfield may have been past it's peak but it still fitted him like a glove.

What does 'laziness' of an arguement have to do with truth in any case? Football is a simple game really and the subtlelty of an opinion is on no consequence whatsoever.

Reply 183

baconbutty

Original post by Zürich

Well I've watched him live twice and it seemed clear to me that trying to judge Messi in isolation without acknowledging what a platform his midfield gave him, is folly. Midfield may have been past it's peak but it still fitted him like a glove.

What does 'laziness' of an arguement have to do with truth in any case? Football is a simple game really and the subtlelty of an opinion is on no consequence whatsoever.

It's lazy because you aren't describing how his success is attributed to the midfield at all. It's easy to say. So go on explain it

Reply 184

pane123

16

Original post by Zürich

Messi is nothing legendary without that GOAT Barca side imho. That midfield was made for him but he'll never be anywhere near as good without it

I think Messi would be absolutely superb in any team. I said it in an earlier post, but his 1 v 1 stats, as well as his stats for unassisted shots and goals are aastounding and suggest he doesn't need very much help. There are numerous other stats that show just how much better Messi is than anyone else on the planet, regardless of the players around him.

If anything, Messi probably makes the Barca midfield look better than it is. I know the Spanish midfield is very good but throw Messi in with those players and he makes the midfield and attack nothing short of incredible.

Reply 185

Tom_Ford

2

"That midfield was made for him but he'll never be anywhere near as good without it"
"Trying to judge Messi in isolation without acknowledging what a platform his midfield gave him, is folly. Midfield may have been past it's peak but it still fitted him like a glove.

:lol:

And my personal favourite, the cheeky little chip:

But who was midfield?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 186

username917703

17

Original post by Tom_Ford

video of 3 or more players

Posted this the other day, 6:31 is too much.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 187

Tom_Ford

2

Original post by Wilfred Little

Posted this the other day, 6:31 is too much.

I'm not even ashamed to admit that I'm a Messi fanboy. He is inhuman. Right up there with El Diego. Those two are better than everyone imo. I'd say it's fittingly a tie, it's too unfair on either to say one is better than the other. It is like father and son.

Maradona to me is like the rebel, he knew he was so good that he could afford to play at a non top team and decided to walk untrodden path. Messi may have better stats afaik in the European Cup and domestically, but Maradona had that leadership quality, that inspirational quality. He was not just a football player but a leader of a cult of personality effectively. So tenacious too, players used to kick him and he would get straight back up. Napoli became Maradona-land, **** the privileged north and all that. It was brilliant.

Reply 188

Sharpshooter

20

Original post by pane123

The general consensus is that Messi is the best player ever, regardless of the age of the people you ask.

EDIT: Rivaldo? Seriously?

The general consensus isn't that Messi is the best player ever, that's widely exaggerated. Gary Lineker during the WC said Messi was the best player since Maradona, Glenn Hoddle on the fantasy football show with Paul Merson was asked Messi and thinks Maradona was better. I think Mark Lawrenson still thinks Pele was.

Again you can probably find me footballers who agree with you, but the widely accepted view that Messi is undisputabley the best player ever no questions asked is total BS. Most people who are voting have admitted they couldn't vote for older players as they've never seen them play, so that already throws this poll into disrepute.

Also, if Messi was the undisputed GOAT (like Federer in tennis, or Jack Nicklaus in golf, Michael Jordan in Basketball, Wayne Gretzky in Hockey etc), how come even in this age biased poll, he can't even score above 30%? That means that over 70% of people think someone else was better. General consensus?.

This sport doesn't have a GOAT, its has GOATs. This may sound like a bit of a repeated cliché, but for Messi to go down as the undisputed GOAT, he has to at least win the WC, otherwise his international career, regardless of what you think of international football generally will be used as a stick to beat him with and will have many people questioning that acclaim and you'll get views like Zurich above. I don't regard Zidane to be as good as Messi, but Zidane at least won the WC (and Euro's) and has stood up to be counted scoring in both WC finals and CL finals. Zidane has a legacy with France, Messi doesn't (yet) with Argentina.

You think Messi is the GOAT and that is perfectly acceptable, but evidently a lot of people don't.

Reply 189

nimrodstower

2

Joe Blow never won this that or the other, so he cannot be a great player, what kind of argument is this? George Best was not a great player by this standard (???).

Anyway I voted Messi, even though he goes missing sometimes. I wonder why Puskas was not included, and also why goalkeepers never get in on these kind of things.

Reply 190

pane123

16

Original post by Sharpshooter

The general consensus isn't that Messi is the best player ever, that's widely exaggerated. Gary Lineker during the WC said Messi was the best player since Maradona, Glenn Hoddle on the fantasy football show with Paul Merson was asked Messi and thinks Maradona was better. I think Mark Lawrenson still thinks Pele was.

Again you can probably find me footballers who agree with you, but the widely accepted view that Messi is undisputabley the best player ever no questions asked is total BS. Most people who are voting have admitted they couldn't vote for older players as they've never seen them play, so that already throws this poll into disrepute.

Also, if Messi was the undisputed GOAT (like Federer in tennis, or Jack Nicklaus in golf, Michael Jordan in Basketball, Wayne Gretzky in Hockey etc), how come even in this age biased poll, he can't even score above 30%? That means that over 70% of people think someone else was better. General consensus?.

This sport doesn't have a GOAT, its has GOATs. This may sound like a bit of a repeated cliché, but for Messi to go down as the undisputed GOAT, he has to at least win the WC, otherwise his international career, regardless of what you think of international football generally will be used as a stick to beat him with and will have many people questioning that acclaim and you'll get views like Zurich above. I don't regard Zidane to be as good as Messi, but Zidane at least won the WC (and Euro's) and has stood up to be counted scoring in both WC finals and CL finals. Zidane has a legacy with France, Messi doesn't (yet) with Argentina.

You think Messi is the GOAT and that is perfectly acceptable, but evidently a lot of people don't.

The vast majority of polls I can find vote Messi as the best ever, so, without getting into semantics, "general consensus" is an acceptable term. He might not win over 50% of votes, but he consistently finishes higher than anyone who has ever played.

I won't start on your "undisputed" GOATs in the other sports, but they are far from undisputed.

And here's where I switch off: "This may sound like a bit of a repeated cliché, but for Messi to go down as the undisputed GOAT, he has to at least win the WC".

It is a repeated cliché and it's also completely wrong. Also, why did you throw in "at least"? What else do you expect him to do?

You seem to have ignored any mention I made of Messi's performances for Argentina. While the sample size is small, his performances for Argentina since the 2010 World Cup go a long way to suggesting that Messi for Argentina is the second best player in the world, behind Messi for Barca.

Anyone who cannot see past a World Cup in this debate should not take part.

We are lucky enough to live in an age where numbers and data are hugely important and readily available. Terms like "he is better technically" become meaningless when we have a huge number of meaningful stats to compare. Every meaningful statistic suggests that Messi is the best player in the world by a distance, so to vote for a player like Henry is, quite simply, incorrect. The 4 people who voted for Henry have every right to call him their favourite player, but the best? No chance.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 191

ZÃ¼rich

20

Original post by pane123

I think Messi would be absolutely superb in any team. I said it in an earlier post, but his 1 v 1 stats, as well as his stats for unassisted shots and goals are aastounding and suggest he doesn't need very much help. There are numerous other stats that show just how much better Messi is than anyone else on the planet, regardless of the players around him.

If anything, Messi probably makes the Barca midfield look better than it is. I know the Spanish midfield is very good but throw Messi in with those players and he makes the midfield and attack nothing short of incredible.

Fair points. But the point I'm making is that it was the synergy with his Barca team mates that brought him from being talked about as greatest now, to greatest ever. Of course he made that midfield look awesome as well.

Reply 192

billydisco

3

Original post by pane123

I hate comments like this. Why? Because it's so wrong.

I am older than 24 and all my friends are older than 24, yet I don't know one person who thinks Ronaldo, Zidane or Rivaldo is the best player of all time - that includes all the people I know who are much older than 24.

The general consensus is that Messi is the best player ever, regardless of the age of the people you ask.

EDIT: Rivaldo? Seriously?

[video="youtube;uS2bomiDOko"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS2bomiDOko[/video]

Enough said.

(88th minute, getting them 4th place in la liga and qualification for champions league)

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 193

Zander01

3

Maradona for me, without a doubt

Reply 194

pane123

16

Original post by billydisco

[video="youtube;uS2bomiDOko"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS2bomiDOko[/video]

Enough said.

(88th minute, getting them 4th place in la liga and qualification for champions league)