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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    This is a very strong feminist sentiment - again you should look at feminist critiques of masculinity.
    It is, but I take slight issue with the idea that we should all treat the threat of rape against men the same as that against women. Women are estimated to be almost 7 times more at risk of being raped compared to men, so at least from the point of campaigning and emotional support for rape victims, it makes sense for it to focus more around women. I find that the attitude of the rapist towards the female victim is one of exercising power and control, as you mentioned, which reflects the mainstream attitude towards women, which is pretty much the same; men telling women how to look, making money out of necessary hygiene items (tampon tax) and treating them as though they own them.
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    I'll be honest I haven't read your whole argument because it is rather long, but overall i find i idea of any women particularly on a site like the student room speaking out against feminism as laughable. You seem like a very educated girl, you go to school, you might want to go to university, you might want to get a job and if you do you can spend your money as you please, even if you're married. Yet you speak out against fem mists and the movement as though its had no impact on your life, do you know the number of women who have dedicated their entire lives and some who have even lost their lives so that you can have an education to be able to even write this argument in the first place?
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    Also, your first argument is invalid, you hate feminism because of the broad spectrum of views and aims? The civil rights movement in America was just a divided. Martin Luther King wanted integration into the American way of life, but Malcolm X wanted Black separatism. Is that a reason to hate a movement? No. Can you assume that all those in favour of racial equality in the 1960s were Anti-white, violent black men who wanted revenge against black people? No. Overall feminists was equality for women. Its simple.
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    (Original post by LaMandarine)
    To me white privilege doesn't exist because it didn't do ****e to make my life any "whiter".
    That is because you are also an eastern european. White privilege doesn't apply unless you are also from a western country.

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    Did not read but same, don't like it
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Narrow-minded, prejudicial rubbish. Feminism doesn't have a monopoly on the idea of gender equality. Men and women oppose feminism for a variety of very agreeable reasons, but those reasons almost never include being opposed to gender equality in some form or other.
    That doesn't change it being the core principle of feminism.
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    My personal opinion of feminism is that it simply means wanting society to treat you as of equal merit to a man. Not necessarily the same as a man, but of equal merit.

    If you would object to being treated as a second-class citizen purely because you are a woman, and would prefer to have equal opportunities to do things you're just as capable of doing, those are basic feminist principles.

    It's just a pity feminism's had such a bad press, but I'm sure most women and girls would, while not explicitly identifying as feminist, agree with the sentiments mentioned above.
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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)
    And they construct these bizarre theories involving things like phallic symbols, and seem to always band over backwards to try to find some example of women being disenfranchised.


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    Why do you assume that feminists want to be men? A Feminist is a person who believes in the equality of the sexes. They simply want to improve the position of women in society. That's like saying that Martin Luther King wanted to be white. Secondly, there are 52% women in the UK and 21% women in the House of Commons. Didn't have to bend over backwards to find that example. Heres another one, 1 in every 4 women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime.
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    (Original post by ummm)
    Can't be arsed to read that.

    Feminism = equal rights for men and women.

    If you're against that then you have a problem.
    Preach it
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    I read 2398 out of 2780 words; give me credit.
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    (Original post by LaMandarine)
    Bet I'm going to get a lot of viewers with that provocative title :teehee:
    Disclaimer No.1: Ladies, please hold your estrogen/prolactin hormones to a normal level until you finish reading my thread. Gents, please also hold your testosterone to a normal level until you finish reading my thread. Thank you :cute:
    Disclaimer No.2: This post is meant to challenge feminism- the ideology, and the movements (or mini-ideologies) within it. I am not against feminism as a whole in the same way as I am not in favour of it. I also encourage you to challenge my arguments, come up with your own in favour/against Feminism in order to make this post a debate and not a *****ing arena.
    Disclaimer No. 3: For those of you thinking that I have too much time on my hands to write this, I'm letting you know that debating over any ideology is part of my degree- so I'm actually being productive now xD

    I decided to write this just after coming from a seminar on "Feminism", and will start by saying that I don't hate "feminism" because of what it implies, I hate it because even after reading from so many books about this ideology, I am still not sure if I am a "feminist" or not (*)

    I also hate "feminism" because to the average person -regardless whether man or woman- not studying politics/IR/other social study or not reading about the ideology, feminism is still perceived as only being radical feminism.I met women that claimed that they wanted equality (which is what mostly liberal feminism is concerned with) but they didn't want feminism because they thought that all feminists are angry men-hating women, which is not by any means true.


    I also hate "feminism" because it just feels like all the ideologies this world currently has are compressed and divided from a single gendered perspective.

    1)You have liberal feminists: their proponents claim that the single and most important goal for women's liberation is sexual equality or gender justice

    2)You have socialist-marxist feminism: their proponents mostly attack the existing divisions of labour in society that made women primarily responsible for domestic duties. Just like Socialists-Marxists, they're also seeking the need for a revolution to overthrow capitalism, but also to overcome male dominance.

    3)You have radical-feminism (my personal least-favourite one):
    These people (mostly women) are virtually nuts.
    a) A lady called Shulamith Firestone claims that male power and control over women's biology can only be abolished by relieving women of their reproductive role.She's basically suggesting that us women shouldn't be mommas and that we should make babies in a tube. No thanks, I'm personally looking forward to feel some kicks in my tummy in the next decade or so.
    b) A lady called Mary Daly, who's really into ladies (if you know what I mean :sexface:)claims that women should create a culture separate from men. She, just like other radical feminists criticises liberal feminism for never questioning whether masculine and/or feminine traits are worth keeping.

    There are many other types of "feminism" but I won't go into them as this is not the point of my thread.

    (*) coming back to the idea I underlined earlier. I am still having a hard time deciding if I am a "feminist" or not, because of these disparaties I just mentioned. Every type of feminist movement is only concerned with one apparent problem. I can't consider myself any of them, because some are endorsing a number of ideas to which I agree, but they may be overlooking some that I also consider to be a problem. Some might have some ideas to which I agree, but they also have some ideas to which I am highly against. So, until I'll make up my mind whether I am or not a "feminist" per se, I will keep anything related to the word/ideology "feminism" in quotation marks (because I am still questioning and challenging the ideology).

    I'll now ennumerate the problems I see with "feminism" so far, and I will engulf all waves and movements in this summation:

    So far all movements of "feminism" that I reviewed raise the issue of inequality between the sexes. However, "feminists" such as radicals for instance, raise discrimination from men as an issue but at the same time discriminate other women. They're accusing women working in modelling or in the porn industry for doing what they are doing, but in reality it's their choice, and they are getting paid for what they're doing. They are shoving "objectification" as an issue whenever they're looking at magazines such as FHM, PlayBoy, Sports Illustrated, etc., but men are also at risk to have lower self esteem whenever they're looking at magazines with buff gym guys (most of whom take steroids and take other unorthodox methods to achieve that look). Does that mean women are more sensible to these adverts, hence should be pitied more and that men can deal with it because they've got an extra load of meat in their crotch? Sorry, but that's bs.

    This issue over the "ideal look" projected by the media and other companies is an issue for both sexes, therefore I don't see this as a legit pretext to be used by some feminists. Anorexia/plastic surgery resulting from what some girls see in the media is an equally severe problem to the one some men are having when they're injecting steroids into their bodies, as a result of what they're also seeing in the media.

    I also hate the idea of work quotas. In some parts of the world there is a certain number of positions allocated for women only, that companies must have. I see this as a response to "gender discrimination" by gender discrimination. I am sorry to say this, ladies, but we are not physically constructed by mother nature to fulfil some tasks. However, that doesn't mean that women shouldn't have access to all types of jobs, god forbid, but I believe that both men and women should first be tested for their skills and then be employed. Probation periods are a good example. If an applicant of either gender proves not to be fit for the job, that's the result of their capabilities. Women can work in the army, women can work in construction, women can do jobs that also men can do, but not all. This goes vice-versa.
    Of course there is still gender discrimination going on in the working environment, and of course some women are being paid less than some men for the same job, but men are not the only ones to blame for this. Gender inequality is a socially constructed concept and I think that the best way to respond to this is to not see a human being in terms of gender, at least when it comes to the work environment. When an employer looks at a prospective employee, he/she should see only the employee and what he/she must to for the job and not a man employee or a woman employee. If I was an employer and I had my company I would put a big sign in front of my office saying "I don't see gender in my employees; if you prove yourself fit for the job, you'll get it, and your pay is based on what you are assigned to do" (I would also add a small disclaimer saying "if you don't get accepted and you're shoving patriarchy/racism/atheism/homophobia in my face for that, gtfo).

    The lecturer I had for Feminism (who was a man) showed us some statistics with how many women are employed in some jobs, but a colleague of mine (who was a girl) asked a very good question- does that statistic show how many women actually applied for the jobs?

    EDIT#1: Make sure you don't sound like you're generalising men (I say men of course, because I'm male, so I'm taking offense). Clarify "Men are supposedly treating/ regarding women as "a piece of meat". This sounds potentially offensive, and could easily be taken the wrong way. So maybe "Many men..." or something like that.

    Both men and women are discriminating women when it comes to gender inequality, because people from both sides have "absorbed" this concept in their day to day lives, either consciously or unconsciously. Men are supposedly treating/ regarding women as "a piece of meat", but some women often use the phrase "Am I (or is she) just a piece of meat to you?" to their partners/ other men. As a woman, you are basically using this argument against you and your own gender, whether you're acknowledging or not. Same goes for some blacks, whenever one says "Oh, you think that's (=usually a bad thing) because I am black?". Sorry, but to me you are directly implying that blacks are bad, simply by saying that. This example can be merged to many other situations, but my post is long so please forgive my apparent bias- tis unintentional.



    I was recently provoked by what appeared to be a radical feminist after she heard I was wearing a corset whenever I'm sitting at my desk/sleeping. She blamed me for "torturing myself" to achieve some ideal female standards that she was blabbering about. Of course that corset offers me an hourglass figure (with which I was in fact born- thanks momma) but my main use of the corset is to redress my position, because I have some pretty bad scoliosis. Of course, I would also sound like a hypocrite to say that that's the only reason why I'm wearing one. I decided to buy a corset for that health reason, but I'm also enjoying the fact that it keeps (and mildly accentuates) my hourglass figure. Our bodies are a living canvas, and we're biologically constructed to have a certain shape, colour, and height. Being happy with/taking advantage of mother nature gave us is not a bad thing- of course exceptions apply, but each of us have our own standards of what is decent/indecent. For instance, I saw myself disliking some girls that were wearing shorts shorter than my boxers, but at the same time I was wearing a V neck top that was mildly accentuating my cleavage. "Decency" is another heated debate topic - among both sexes- and my post is already getting pretty damn long so I will only use this concept to challenge another "feminist" argument sexism. Although I already challenged this argument in what I said earlier, I will address some other examples of things considered to be sexist:

    One time I was talking on the phone with my ex and at some point (after teasing him) he said "shut up and go to the kictchen where you belong". I laughed so hard because I was actually in the kitchen stirring in my porridge. Personally, as a woman, I don't feel offended by this. I feel that I "belong in the kitchen" because I like cooking, but so does dad- he's a chef (that's why when he teases me I also ask him to go to the kitchen and make mum and me dinner xD)

    If she slept with more guys she's a ****, if he slept with more girls he's a legend.
    (Then there's the Taylor Swift saga of songs in which she's *****ing about all her exes for being players.)

    In my view, the expression above doesn't make either side more appealing to me. I personally wouldn't sleep with "a legend/player" etc. However, the fact that I'm into guys looking for a stable/committed relationship doesn't make me any more of a saint than a girl who's into having casual sex. It's a matter of preference. The idea is that we both know (or should know) what to expect when we're approaching some guys, in the same way that guys know (or should know) what to expect when they're approaching some girls.

    I was once at the beach playing volleyball with some friends and I hugged a guy from my team for saving the ball when I missed it. When I hugged him he got a boner and my gal friend snapped at him saying "she's taken, you jerk". Including the fact that that guys can get boners in plenty other embarrasing/not embarrasing situations, feeling aroused or attracted when you're seeing a girl showing more of her body is not your fault. That's your body's signal of saying that it wants some special time ( :hubba:), whether you listen to it and "take action" or not, that's a different story.


    This also reminded me of the "free the nipple campaign", and how people (particularly women) are aiming to allow women to walk topless/ be shown topeless in some circumstances.

    I see nothing wrong with this, but they should not disregard the fact that both men and women find boobs more arousing than moobs (a.k.a. man boobs- sorry guys :sad:). It is normal. It is natural. Men love lady breasts, and so do women, or at least some women (including myself :sexface:). Lady breasts, big or small, round or oval, pink nippled or dark nippled are a sign of fertility, and it is instinctual for men to enjoy seeing them.
    I personally wouldn't show my breasts out in the public, because I consider them to be something I would only show to my lucky man (:hubba:)

    Change something by here, this is where I (suddenly) lost interest from the incoming wall of text.

    but if any other woman decides to show it, that's fine by me. However, and now I'm referring to the last argument that I will challenge: "she asked for it", women shouldn't be surprised if they arise attention from men by exposing some parts of their body, and this includes the rest of the female body, not just the boobies. Again, it is instinctual for men to enjoy breasts, seeing some bum bum or whatever else gets them excited. Vice versa for us ladies. If I see a guy's naked back, and he has a bit of definition to it, I find it hard to still have courtesy :sexface:. Whether we like it or not, during puberty our body gets moulded into a sex machine, it is programmed to do so, because our species relies on it. By young adulthood our body is expecting to give it some lovin from somebody else, and it is natural. How we show our interest to our potential sex partners is a different issue. And here comes the issue of rape, and I'll intertwine it with the "she asked for it" issue. Rape is a very unfortunate, disgusting, dreadful crime. So is stealing from and afterwards killing a person. So is paedophilia. And these are just a handful of examples. Why do these crimes happen? A criminal would usually aggress a person who would fits his/her criteria. A male rapist would most likely attack a female, should he be heterosexual. A female heterosexual rapist would attack a man. Homosexual rapists of either gender would attack people of their own gender. In a criminal's eye the victim is "an easy", helpless target, regardless whether the victim is a he or a she. So is a child in the eyes of a paedophiliac, and moreover- paedophiliacs don't only assault children because "they're easy", but also because they're mentally really into kids. A robber would most likely attack an older person, because they're less likely to fight back/run to them. A wolf would only attack a prey that's weak, either old, young or sick.
    Nobody is ever asking to be assaulted in any way. A male heterosexual rapist, if "in the mood", will attack a woman/girl, regardless whether she's wearing a bikini or she's covered from head to toe.

    I skipped to here, because this regained my interest. The following sentence makes it sound like the blame for rape is sexual attraction, it would be best if you clarified what you think causes rape, and how factor X plays a part, so you leave less up to debate.

    It is true that women are more prone to being raped because there are more heterosexual rapists out there than any other type, but I believe that rape, just like any other crime, should be unacceptable for either gender. Men that are raped are often ashamed to speak out, primarily because they think that by doing so they're losing their manlihood.As far as the victims are concerned, being raped doesn't make you any more of a woman (= weak) than it makes you any less of a man(=weak).


    This is a very long post that addresses only a handful of problems regarding "feminism"- both what it implies and how it is perceived by people of either sexes nowadays. As I mentioned in my second disclaimer, I invite you all who read and feel like they want to share their thoughts to do it; feel free to write pro-contra arguments of what I said, challenge the ideology by giving further examples and also say what's good with feminism and what should be kept. Thank you :cute:

    I lost interest again here, so only skim read it. Do somethign to retain interest, and make me want to check that link out (haven't visited page yet).

    Here's a link to make you smile after so much reading. Please feel free to watch the link before commenting, as it will melt your hearts and release good neurotransmitters in your brains. That way I'll be dealing with less rage from the ones who felt angered by what I said. Consider it a benefit for both you and I xD.

    EDIT #2: Just checked out link, can't watch right now (in college), but looks interesting!
    Read more than I realised, going back to change previous post.
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    (Original post by SiminaM)
    That is because you are also an eastern european. White privilege doesn't apply unless you are also from a western country.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    o_o
    So you are implying that there is a special category of people that are white but aren't considered to have "white privilege"? Romania's population -aside from its ethnic and cultural minorities- is entirely "white"
    "The West" is a concept that has been interpreted differently throughout history, and there is still a disagreement over what makes a country a Western country or not.
    I'm guessing politically speaking, since Romania is a member of the NATO it can be considered a Western country, but in terms of how it is perceived by -what I would call "The Western of the West" it's not?
    Judging by your perception of a Western Country. I would suggest renaming your cute concept "White Western Privilege". But then again, a "white" American jobeless and homeless for not being able to pay his rent would thank you for including him in such a category
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    (Original post by LaMandarine)
    o_o
    So you are implying that there is a special category of people that are white but aren't considered to have "white privilege"? Romania's population -aside from its ethnic and cultural minorities- is entirely "white"
    "The West" is a concept that has been interpreted differently throughout history, and there is still a disagreement over what makes a country a Western country or not.
    I'm guessing politically speaking, since Romania is a member of the NATO it can be considered a Western country, but in terms of how it is perceived by -what I would call "The Western of the West" it's not?
    Judging by your perception of a Western Country. I would suggest renaming your cute concept "White Western Privilege". But then again, a "white" American jobeless and homeless for not being able to pay his rent would thank you for including him in such a category
    To be honest I do think "white privilege" is an over-simplified and misleading term. "Non-white disadvantage in white-majority societies" would be more apt but doesn't really have the same ring to it
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    (Original post by RobML)
    To be honest I do think "white privilege" is an over-simplified and misleading term. "Non-white disadvantage in white-majority societies" would be more apt but doesn't really have the same ring to it
    Again, please tell me what "white" means to you in this context
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    (Original post by LaMandarine)
    Again, please tell me what "white" means to you in this context
    ...White. As in those of European descent.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    ...White. As in those of European descent.
    Thanks I, finally got the confirmation that Romanians are white.
    :rofl:
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    (Original post by Wilfred Little)
    Be succinct. Not reading all of that.

    (Original post by hellodave5)
    A TL;DR Plz
    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    I hate feminism so I'll probably agree with everything you've written, but nobody on here is reading all that. Cut it down.

    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    Do you really think it will be something original, something that we haven't seen before (again and again) on this forum?

    It'll be the same old rubbish, leading to the same old tedious arguments.

    I'm bored.
    (Original post by kxylah)
    i didn't read it but i'll probably agree with it...
    Lazy. Is this not the "student" room? :facepalm: And then people ask what's happening to the world. Let's start with people are too lazy to read an online editorial. If this were lyrics to your favourite song or something about a celeb you love/hate, you'd have read something this size several times.
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    (Original post by Feline_Nymphet)
    Lazy. Is this not the "student" room? :facepalm: And then people ask what's happening to the world. Let's start with people are too lazy to read an online editorial. If this were lyrics to your favourite song or something about a celeb you love/hate, you'd have read something this size several times.
    I don't know... People actually have busy lives and have to be selective. I'm pretty sure as far as demographics go - TSR isn't one to go mad about celebs or song lyrics
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    Hi. I'm a newbie. Your title definitely caught my attention. After reading the first post I don't remember how I ended up here. What do you study, OP?

    You made some valid points and I must say you have a writing style I enjoy. The down side is I will need to re-read the whole thing to actually get which points carry more weight than others.
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    As a proud feminist I agree there are some who are part of the movement who have views that I consider wrong, but that is the case for any group in the world that you study. The basis of feminism is equality for women, something still incredibly important with wage gaps and rape culture here and things as terrible as genital mutilation of girls in other cultures. That is what feminism is too me and to the vast majority of feminists. Saying you "hate" feminism because of the minority of misandrists denies these ideas and sends a messages that women don't find these issues important.

    I realise you did comment on different kinds of feminism and how they shouldn't be all just lumped in together and I agree to a certain extent although I do think that many feminists believe both in trying to fix labour divisions and gender roles as well as gender justice as you said. I also think that the point about number of women applying for the job is part of the problem, girls are taught from a young age that science isn't for them, I witness this in my school where I am one of 2 girls in my physics class and have always been discouraged from taking sciences by my guidance teachers (they didn't say the same about biology actually, I don't know why just in the name of full disclosure on the matter) I think we need to focus on discrimination in the workplace definitely but also the societal view that women shouldn't do certain jobs which has a massive affect too.

    I would also like to say that on your thoughts on Playboy etc. and the 'free the nipple' campaign it is all about the sexualisation and objectification of women. There is nothing inherently sexual about a woman's breasts, it is society that makes it that way and therefore it can be changed if we work for it. It used to be the case with men too, only men fought for the right to be able to show their nipples and won that right although it was scandalous at first too. Perhaps if toplessness was normalised, breasts wouldn't be thought of as sexual objects and women would be allowed to feed babies in public - you know, the things breasts are actually meant to do but it is currently deemed unacceptable because breasts are seen as sexual. The problem with Playboy for many feminists isn't the nakedness, it is the fact that it is made for a male gaze and encourages ideas that toplessness is okay for the pleasure of men but not for the freedom of women. The fact that it is fine to have lad mags on display in shops but if in the same place a woman chose to be topless she would be judged harshly is unacceptable in my opinion.

    Basically I think feminism is so important and demeaning it because of a few does harm to women and if you feel they are ruining feminism then maybe you should write about why you dislike certain types of feminists rather than condemning a movement which has done, and continues to do, such important work. If you did that I would totally be with you because I realise you do know what you're talking about, I didn't read the entirety of your really long post but i skimmed it and yeah I think you should keep those facts in mind but I would appreciate it if you tried to see it from another point of view because destroying the feminist movement does nothing to help with gender equality and only plays into the hands of the sexist people.
 
 
 
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