Turn on thread page Beta
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    [QUOTE=Dima-Blackburn;55872629]
    (Original post by Faisalshamallakh)

    Again, whether or not it's a deterrent is irrelevant (although I would dispute just how much of a deterrent it actually is - if you could provide reliable stats, I'd be happy to look at them). From a moral perspective, the punishment must be proportionate to the infraction under a retributive model (Islamic law endorses this model, with deterrence considered more of a side-effect). If we took out proportionality from the equation, we would have to inflict excessively cruel punishments regardless of the severity of the infractions. For example, under your model one could argue for the amputation of those who drive over the speed limit to get everyone to drive under the speed limit and prevent accidents on the road, but this punishment would not be proportionate to the speeding offense itself. This is basic legal theory, and the element of proportionate retribution is explicitly endorsed in Islamic texts (eye for an eye, nose for nose).



    Tbh, I don't see how draconian punishments benefit society in the long run. On the contrary, it makes people a lot more willing to engage in aggressive, violent behaviour if the State itself behaves in such a manner. A civilised society ought to move away from harsh, retributive models and move towards restorative justice as well as addressing the issues that give rise to crime. There's a strong correlation between the environment you're brought up in, and the likelihood of you committing crime (or being a victim of crime). Society should move towards addressing these issues.



    Yes, it does. There are reasons why different punishments are given for different crimes, even in Islam. If we wanted to save up time, we wouldn't have criminal law. We'd just torture all the criminals to death and be done with it, hoping that it would deter people from committing any crime.
    Here is a website that can show you the crimes per country. You can also see the crimes for each country per 1000 people to get a better picture.

    These statistics were taken from 2002 however the concept is there, in fact 2002 is a period where Islamic countries were a little less influenced by western policies so it may be a slightly more accurate reflection on Islam itself:

    http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...rimes-per-1000

    If you scroll down and start from the bottom upwards, you will constantly see Muslim countries such as Turkey, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc. I scanned the website fairly quickly and I didn't see any western countries at the bottom of the list. In fact they are mostly ranked at the top.

    Now, I'll return to the fact that these punishments are merely a deterrent. Soft punishments such as a fine will not stop thieves as we know. Why should we use public money to imprison thieves when they could be stopped in the first place? Now amputating a hand is a very harsh punishment but it still helps to minimise theft.

    According to Imam Sadiq, there are 19 pre-conditions before amputating the hand of a thief. If any of these conditions are broken, then the amputation will NOT take place however another punishment will be put in place (fines etc). There are too many preconditions to list but I will name the main ones, you can find the rest online:

    - The thief must be sane.
    - The thief must not have resorted to stealing under duress
    - The stolen thing must be something that is worth owning
    The value of the stolen object must not be less than one-fourth misqal of pure gold
    - The thing should have been stolen from a secure place
    - For a theft to be proved, two just eye witnesses should have seen the thief stealing

    Assuming a thief was proven guilty. He is allowed to go to the judge, repent, and promise not to steal in the future. In this case he will be exempt from any punishment including amputation.

    As you can see, due to the sheer evidence required to prove a case, Islam actually does a good job at discouraging and preventing crimes. If anything it is a psychological barrier that help maintain order and stability. It's not to say that thieves aren't amputated, but for the tiny minority that are, is a deterrent to other thieves. (As harsh as it sounds, it is effective)
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    [QUOTE=MrKmas508;55872775]
    (Original post by Faisalshamallakh)
    . Well if it's so good why don't you go live there. The reason why your family moved to a western country was because Sharia law countries were horrendous. Starving children who needed food to eat were brutally punished for trying to get food. There are hardly any stable Muslim societies left except maybe Turkey but they're secular.
    No, actually the reason I moved here is because the West need's people like my dad to come to this country. Help contribute to society by paying taxes. Paying for mainly (dare I say it) white people sitting at home thriving on their benefits.

    Couldn't I say the same to why Westerners move to our countries such as Saudi Arabia, UAE, Turkey etc just to make a fortune and avoid paying taxes in their home countries?

    Muslim societies are very stable, it just so happens that most of the countries are having a hard time trying to achieve democracy and freedom of speech. Turkey, as you mentioned. Is a very good example of an democracy, run by Muslims. And if you go to Turkey, you will know it's an Islamic society. Hell I would know because I have a house in Istanbul
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheBBQ)
    Jagerbombs are rubbish, trust me.

    As a tip, your first beer is generally crap but it grows on you. Don't go for cheap ones though.
    Apparently the hangover isn't as bad with Jagerbombs because of the red bull with it? That's what I was told for some reason haha.

    Thinking of starting with cider e.g. Koppaberg, then the 'proper' beers like Carslberg etc
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by s1993b)
    This thread has made an interesting read, aswell as you listing you choices etc. I have a lot of respect for you to do this and answer peoples questions so kindly, I hope you find happiness in leaving Islam and that your familly and friends all respect your choice and maintain some sort of relationship when you do tell them. It takes alot of courage to do.
    Thank you for your kind words!
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by string56)
    Given i can ask you anything, should I go for John Frieda frizz ease straight conditioner at £5.00 or Organix Argan oil hair conditioner at £7.00, what do you (or anyone in this thread) think is best for dry, frizzy, small hair?
    Apparently Argan oil works wonders for hair, but I'm more a Head and Shoulders man myself
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by student_2902)
    Bacon is AMAZING, ham not so much
    I've had Turkey ham, is it anything like actual ham? I feel like a kid, trying new foods for the first time haha.
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    When you were a Muslim, did make any assumptions about non-Muslims and the way they live that, after becoming an apostate, you realised were false?

    Also, good luck. :bigsmile: Hope everything works out for you mate. You should join the TSR ex-Muslim soc!
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by bobthewriter)
    How did your parents take it?
    They have no clue, yet. Difficult to decide how to break it to them to be honest. How/when I will do it, no idea.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Noura*)
    So OP, you left Islam just because you couldn't understand the concept of free will and decree in Islam? Did you bother researching, asking around? Just say it man- you want to live the kafir lifestyle. I hope you're happy, but you don't worry because the gift of Islam is being given to people who really deserve it and are grateful for it. There are many young Muslims living here fighting against these temptations every single day, but you lose when you give up.
    See this paragraph contains a lot of assumptions that are quite simply incorrect. Did I bother researching? Yes, a lot. Have I asked around? Yes, I have. I don't care for the 'kafir' lifestyle, I care about not being indoctrinated into believing an immoral and incorrect religion.

    Say what you want, if you feel that an innocent 15 year-old is not a Muslim and will therefore go into the hell-fire because they don't 'deserve' it, then this in itself exposes one of several flaws within the religion.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ibn Fulaan)
    I'll play u 1v1 rust quick scopin 3rd person throwin nifes aloud.
    MW2? Let's do this.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by generic_man)
    When you were a Muslim, did make any assumptions about non-Muslims and the way they live that, after becoming an apostate, you realised were false?

    Also, good luck. :bigsmile: Hope everything works out for you mate. You should join the TSR ex-Muslim soc!
    Probably just that they were totally wrong in their beliefs, and that they had no real end purpose in life, whereas I always had Heaven in mind. Thanks though! I will do tomorrow morning, thanks again. Have a good night :^_^::^_^:
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by eoe)
    Who said non-muslims would go to hell. They will be judged according to their situation
    Well, Allah actually:

    The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Bible] and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.
    Koran 98:6
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    I believe that Atheists or Agnostics are far more likely to go to heaven than any Christian or Muslim would. This is because everything they do is not because they are afraid of consequence or looking for reward but instead because they believed it was the right thing to do. This proves they have pure souls. However there are Muslims that never leave their community, communicate with kafirs or even refute Islam once. Did they ever really live, get tested, have free will or did they live their whole lives smug and afraid. Islam means submission but does that also mean that Muslims submit to self responsibility, God will sort it out its all apart of his plan. If Muslims meet God he may allow you into the afterlife but one thing he will not do is remember you because your just another Muslim who lived a Muslim life Eating,Sleeping and Praying.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Well, Allah actually:



    Koran 98:6
    Loll, correct me if I'm wrong- but it seems you've had to quote that several times today.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    Why do you describe yourself as an ex-Muslim? Is that your raison d'être?
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MrKmas508)
    However there are Muslims that never leave their community, communicate with kafirs or even refute Islam once.
    Lol, but that's ridiculous. Why on earth would belonging to a faith restrict you from communicating with those of different faiths..."communicate" - seriously though?!!!?¿ At the end of the day we are all still people and we may have differences but that is just...I'm speechless lol.- ofc I'm basing my response on the idea that what you're saying is 100% correct.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    8
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by rufflin)
    Hey man just wanted to say congratulations on leaving islam, I left 2/half years ago, now very happy living with my girlfriend.


    PM me if you need anything.

    also drop by the exmuslim thread and say hello
    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...0#post55874155
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    [QUOTE=Faisalshamallakh;55873391]
    (Original post by Dima-Blackburn)

    Here is a website that can show you the crimes per country. You can also see the crimes for each country per 1000 people to get a better picture.

    These statistics were taken from 2002 however the concept is there, in fact 2002 is a period where Islamic countries were a little less influenced by western policies so it may be a slightly more accurate reflection on Islam itself
    The Islamic countries listed on that website have not been influenced by the West in terms of their domestic policies and judicial systems.


    If you scroll down and start from the bottom upwards, you will constantly see Muslim countries such as Turkey, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc. I scanned the website fairly quickly and I didn't see any western countries at the bottom of the list. In fact they are mostly ranked at the top.
    The website states "Note: Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Figures expressed per thousand population for the same year" at the very top, so it's not really a reliable indicator. For example, Iceland is at the top of the list. Does this mean Iceland has more crime per capita than, say, UK or Saudi Arabia? Not really. Iceland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world; violent crime is virtually non-existent. As such, I cannot really trust these figures. Along with the Islamic countries you've mentioned, you'll find non-Muslim countries like India. As an Indian myself, I know for a fact that these statistics are incorrect, even if they were taken from 2002. Nevertheless, even with these unreliable figures, if we look at say car thefts per 1000, we don't really see much noticeable difference between the Muslim and non-Muslim countries. Hell, relying on these statistics would show that Germany has less prevalence of car-theft than Saudi Arabia, without taking into account the fact crime often goes unreported in KSA.

    Now, I'll return to the fact that these punishments are merely a deterrent. Soft punishments such as a fine will not stop thieves as we know. Why should we use public money to imprison thieves when they could be stopped in the first place? Now amputating a hand is a very harsh punishment but it still helps to minimise theft.
    Because they can be stopped by other, more proportionate means, without resorting to causing irreversible damage in the form of brutal amputations. As stated earlier, studies show that it's not the severity but the likelihood of getting caught that serves as much more effective of a deterrent.

    According to Imam Sadiq, there are 19 pre-conditions before amputating the hand of a thief. If any of these conditions are broken, then the amputation will NOT take place however another punishment will be put in place (fines etc). There are too many preconditions to list but I will name the main ones, you can find the rest online:

    - The thief must be sane.
    - The thief must not have resorted to stealing under duress
    - The stolen thing must be something that is worth owning
    The value of the stolen object must not be less than one-fourth misqal of pure gold
    - The thing should have been stolen from a secure place
    - For a theft to be proved, two just eye witnesses should have seen the thief stealing
    I am aware of these conditions. 1/4 misqal of pure gold would be about $60 I think, and the idea that it must be in a secure place rules out dropped wallets or pretty much anything out in the open, so yes it's hard to implement the hadd punishment from that perspective. Nevertheless, this doesn't really address the issue of the punishment being disproportionate and permanent, not to mention largely ineffective (an amputated thief is less likely to get a job, so they may even resort to committing more crimes to survive).

    Assuming a thief was proven guilty. He is allowed to go to the judge, repent, and promise not to steal in the future. In this case he will be exempt from any punishment including amputation.
    If the thief confesses, then they have the chance to take back their confession right until the moment of amputation, in which case other evidence will be presented (the 2 male just witnesses). But if the thief is caught and proven guilty, then no amount of repentance will exempt him/her from punishment.

    As you can see, due to the sheer evidence required to prove a case, Islam actually does a good job at discouraging and preventing crimes. If anything it is a psychological barrier that help maintain order and stability. It's not to say that thieves aren't amputated, but for the tiny minority that are, is a deterrent to other thieves. (As harsh as it sounds, it is effective)
    Once again, a) there's not enough credible evidence to suggest this, b) even if was, it's a disproportionate punishment, c) there's always the possibility that the thief has been framed, and the potential for the amputation of an innocent victim is always there, no matter how many precautions you take. Believe it or not, but legislators are not idiots. There are good, sound reasons as to why we do not carry out such cruel punishments.

    Amuputation for stealing was a pre-Islamic punishment in Arabia, and it was common in some ancient cultures (i.e. Hammurabi). It was seen as moral by the standards of the time, but we now recognise such punishments as unnecessarily cruel, ineffective, and morally unjust.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by rufflin)
    Well, I just go to the uni prayer hall on Friday's, so I don't wear it then. I think I wore a Jubbah to Jummah in the holidays one time. To your second question, Eid hasn't come past since I've left Islam. And I am of Indian descent.
    Do you know whether in your ancestry, your family migrated to India or are converts?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by rufflin)
    So God decided that they weren't worthy of heaven before they were born? As if we needed any more evidence that Allah is the most merciful ey?
    I aint a muslim and I aint trying attack you or say what you did is good or bad cus ur life so ur choice #YOLO but from what I heard in islam they believe that everyone is born with free will and choice therefore whatever they do in life is their choice but you know they way when you look at a map you can see all the countries in one whole view, but if you didn't have a map then you would have to travel through all the countries to see which countery came next well that is how life is. we travel through life making choices everyday. but god can see our life as a map seeing what happens at the beginning and what happens at the end but everything that does happen is completely our choice. so god has the view from above and can see our whole life what has happend and what will happen in future right infront of him like a map. that is how one of ma mates explained it to me and I found it really interesting but like you I aint exactly commited to any beleifs or religions so...erm hav a nice day
 
 
 
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: March 17, 2017

2,771

students online now

800,000+

Exam discussions

Find your exam discussion here

Poll
Should predicted grades be removed from the uni application process
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.