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The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap watch

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    Nothing is inherently wrong with choosing to wear the burqa. It may be be seen as a symbol of oppression and against our western ideology but there is no harm in wearing it by choice. I cannot speak for the ladies in middle east but if it is worn by choice I don't get why some of us are trying to brain wash them into believing it is the wrong choice.
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    (Original post by YepItsMe)
    Am I the only one that got from the original that it is the burqa that is objectifying women? Because wouldn't that be contradictory to state so?

    Arguing that it is the burqa which symbolises the woman's body and not the bikini is totally the wrong way round?
    Well, it literally objectifies them because it treats them like objects, or property. Maybe they think they're following their religion, but it was originally imposed by the culture when women were chattel.
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    I don't wear the veil, but i do wear loose fit clothing and a headscarf. But i don't wear what i wear just out of modesty. There are multiple reasons behind why i dress how i dress and i don't feel oppressed at all. I willingly do what i do. I am not influenced by western culture but rather my religion. And my religion is my choice. If i thought that the rules or ideas behind islam were wrong, then i simply would nof follow them. I belong to a culture where sadly women are married off really young, and where education is not important for a woman. But just because i belong in that culture that doesn't mean that i will follow the norms of that culture. For me islam is perfect and there is a certain wisdom behind everything that we are commanded to do and i see that wisdom so i follow the rules. Simple as.

    Other reasons behind hijab; it is a representation of me. The hijab is a part of me, it gives me strength. People know when i walk past them that i am a muslimah, i am proud of my religion. I want to showcase my religion to the world. The hijab is never going to be a symbol of oppression. It is my choice. A sign of my freedom. I am not a slave to western culture. I am a slave to allah. I feel most free when i can obey my lord freely. And thank allah i am able to do that in this country.

    Regarding the bikini, i do see that as a sign of oppression. People over here are almost brainwashed by what they see on media and outside that they believr that ultimate freedom is dressing a specific way. Looking a specific way. No pain no gain and all of that bs. If it were really your genuine choice to dress the way you do, why not wear bikinis and other "skimpy clothing inside the house when youre all alone. Why is it that when you leave the house you have to look a specific way. Youre not dressing up because you like to. Youre dressing up because you want all eyes on you. Why can't you be attractive wearing a comfortable pair of joggers and a tee like you do when you are at home alone. Ill tell you why its because media and the outside world has changed your perception of beautiful and it has done this to you without you even noticing. As cheesy as this sounds. Beauty comes from within. A pure and generous heart, that is beautiful, whats on the outside means nothing.

    Regarding doing regular activites in a burqa. I've been going to school for 2 years wearing hijab and not once have i found dificulty in walking around. I think lots of women will agree with me. Im not going to lie, i did wear the headscarf (3 years ago) but i used to wear it with skinny jeans etc. And at the time i didn't reallly see the importance of it. But now i wear full hijab my life hasn't changed much, i can still walk around, go to the shops, i can still enjoy myself whilst wearing hijaab.

    Sunbathing- i personally dont need to (because i have darker skin anyways), but even if i did, i could do it in my own backgardern, and outside beauty is not important to a muslim woman anyways, so sunbathing is not really an issue.

    Swimming - most swimming pools do offer women only sessions. In which case a muslim woman can go.

    so yeh. I disagree with what youve said and my reasoning is written above.
    (There are a few grammatical errors and spelling errors, i hope you can forgive me for that, but i am using my tablet and i cant be bithered to go back and fix my mistakes) should be readable though. Hopefully you understand what im trying to say. Woukd be a lot easier if i can say all this in person. Feel free to ask me whatever you wish to ask me!!
    Peace
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    (Original post by Macy1998)
    Nothing is inherently wrong with choosing to wear the burqa. It may be be seen as a symbol of oppression and against our western ideology but there is no harm in wearing it by choice. I cannot speak for the ladies in middle east but if it is worn by choice I don't get why some of us are trying to brain wash them into believing it is the wrong choice.
    My gosh you make a lot of sense, thank you!! , oh and if you have ever been to the middle east, there are quite a few places where women do not wear hijab, but at the same time, i feel ashamed that some women over there are forced into it. It actually goes against islam. Becaus their intention is not right. The quran does say, encourage the good and forbid the evil, but i feel as though people have taken that message in the wrong way.
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    (Original post by ruweyda97)
    My gosh you make a lot of sense, thank you!! , oh and if you have ever been to the middle east, there are quite a few places where women do not wear hijab, but at the same time, i feel ashamed that some women over there are forced into it. It actually goes against islam. Becaus their intention is not right. The quran does say, encourage the good and forbid the evil, but i feel as though people have taken that message in the wrong way.
    People will always find ways to abuse any religious texts. But if the woman are openly choosing to wear it out if free will there is no shame on doing so nor Shame for nothing wearing it.The men forcing it are in the wrong.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    First of all, women generally wear bikinis when they're at the beach, swimming, or sunbathing. They don't really walk around the streets in them.
    Not necessarily. Women also wear bikinis in adverts, calendars, catwalks, magazines, pageants, photo-shoots and video-shoots, and a host of other situations specifically so that men can see them. It's not just for swimming and sunbathing.

    They certainly wouldn't be doing all that if men didn't exist. And often, even "swimming and sunbathing" is just a pretext for it. I'm not sure "girl's holidays" on those island beach resorts in hot weather would be anywhere near as popular if there weren't any men there.

    Plus, when bikinis are worn in the situations I mentioned, it's specifically to please and attract men, whereas burqas are worn so as not to be judged by men on appearances.
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    I don't really know enough about burqas to produced an informed opinion on them, but am curious about some of your statements about bikinis.

    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Here is a little test that proves that Islamic veils are a form of patriarchal oppression on women, while bikinis aren't: If men didn't exist, would women wear burqas at the beach or when swimming?
    Likely not. Would there be occasions if men didn't exist burqa type clothing was worn? Most likely yes, but that's kinda besides your point I guess.

    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Is the burqa practical in the situations where a bikini is generally worn? Because, I reckon that if men didn't exist, women wouldn't be wearing veils on the beach or while swimming. They would be wearing very little, if anything, as clothes are not practical for these activities.
    Clearly the burqa isn't practical for swimming at the beach. If men didn't exist would women be wearing bikinis or naked? I very much doubt it. If they had any sense they'd be wearing rash vests and long shorts of a similar material. No point in risking skin cancer for no good reason.

    (Original post by KingBradly)
    On the other hand, the bikini or any skimpy clothing that women wear certainly doesn't exist to help men keep women as their property. The female form is often very beautiful, and skimpy clothing is a way for women (who are willing and enjoy such attention) to celebrate their beauty. To call this "oppression" is utterly idiotic. It is not showing them as property, and it is not showing them as nothing more than sex objects any more than wearing Adidas clothing is showing you as nothing more than as an advert for Adidas.
    I agree it doesn't help men keep women as their property. I would argue though that some men certainly use such clothing to show off their "property". Just look at the guys you see strolling around the beach with a fake blonde hanging off their arm. I'd bet he often had some say in what she was wearing. He wouldn't be seen with her in a sensible loose fitting shirt and a skirt.

    Dan Bilzerian is a prime example of this.
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    (Original post by ruweyda97)
    For me islam is perfect and there is a certain wisdom behind everything that we are commanded to do and i see that wisdom so i follow the rules. Simple as.
    I'd be interested in the perfection and wisdom behind the permission to beat disobedient wives (4:34)

    People know when i walk past them that i am a muslimah, i am proud of my religion. I want to showcase my religion to the world.
    Why is it that when you leave the house you have to look a specific way. Youre not dressing up because you like to. Youre dressing up because you want all eyes on you.

    The hijab is never going to be a symbol of oppression.
    Regarding the bikini, i do see that as a sign of oppression.

    It is my choice. A sign of my freedom.
    they believr that ultimate freedom is dressing a specific way

    Not familiar with irony, are you?
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Not necessarily. Women also wear bikinis in adverts, calendars, catwalks, magazines, pageants, photo-shoots and video-shoots, and a host of other situations specifically so that men can see them. It's not just for swimming and sunbathing.

    They certainly wouldn't be doing all that if men didn't exist. And often, even "swimming and sunbathing" is just a pretext for it. I'm not sure "girl's holidays" on those island beach resorts in hot weather would be anywhere near as popular if there weren't any men there.

    Plus, when bikinis are worn in the situations I mentioned, it's specifically to please and attract men, whereas burqas are worn so as not to be judged by men on appearances.
    You seem to be implying that there is something wrong with feelings of attraction or arousal induced by the sight of the female or male form.

    You also seem to be implying that there is something wrong with maximising our appearance to attract the opposite (or same) sex.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    You seem to be implying that there is something wrong with feelings of attraction or arousal induced by the sight of the female or male form.

    You also seem to be implying that there is something wrong with maximising our appearance to attract the opposite (or same) sex.
    Not at all; I'm simply refuting the OP's argument going by the criterion that he used in his original post, namely whether it is worn by women for the benefit of men, and whether it would still be worn if men didn't exist.

    He pretty much claims that burqas are worn purely for the benefit of men, and that bikinis are worn purely for practical reasons, which is not at all the case.
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    (Original post by Dheorl)
    I don't really know enough about burqas to produced an informed opinion on them, but am curious about some of your statements about bikinis.



    Likely not. Would there be occasions if men didn't exist burqa type clothing was worn? Most likely yes, but that's kinda besides your point I guess.



    Clearly the burqa isn't practical for swimming at the beach. If men didn't exist would women be wearing bikinis or naked? I very much doubt it. If they had any sense they'd be wearing rash vests and long shorts of a similar material. No point in risking skin cancer for no good reason.



    I agree it doesn't help men keep women as their property. I would argue though that some men certainly use such clothing to show off their "property". Just look at the guys you see strolling around the beach with a fake blonde hanging off their arm. I'd bet he often had some say in what she was wearing. He wouldn't be seen with her in a sensible loose fitting shirt and a skirt.

    Dan Bilzerian is a prime example of this.
    Utter prattle. Of course women would go naked or wear clothes similar to bikinis. Why do you think nudist beaches exist? Because it feels very natural. Girls wouldn't wear rash vests either, because most normal humans haven't spent so long in their parents basements that they are poisoned by sunlight. People enjoy being in the sun. As if you're using utter conjecture about some Z list celebrity as an example to back up your argument. Also, "fake blond", that's a bit *****y isn't it? Sounds a little like slut-shaming. Typical feminist, pretending to be for womenkind but only really being for women who share your prissy values. Also, please explain how the burqa would have evolved if it wasn't for a patriarchal society, keeping in mind that is exactly what it evolved from.

    Is there ever a point where you stop and think "wow, I'm full of sh*t"?
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Utter prattle. Of course women would go naked or wear clothes similar to bikinis. Why do you think nudist beaches exist? Because it feels very natural. Girls wouldn't wear rash vests either, because most normal humans haven't spent so long in their parents basements that they are poisoned by sunlight. People enjoy being in the sun. As if you're using utter conjecture about some Z list celebrity as an example to back up your argument. Also, "fake blond", that's a bit *****y isn't it? Sounds a little like slut-shaming. Typical feminist, pretending to be for womenkind but only really being for women who share your prissy values. Also, please explain how the burqa would have evolved if it wasn't for a patriarchal society, keeping in mind that is exactly what it evolved from.

    Is there ever a point where you stop and think "wow, I'm full of sh*t"?
    Ohh, so you're one of those people who starts a thread inviting a healthy debate then when someone disagrees with you, you immediately resort to ad hominen attacks. Lovely. Such a wonderful display of intellect. Well I'll try my best to respond to your points in a reasonable manner.

    I think nudist beaches exist because yes, some people enjoy being naked. Others don't. I know plenty of girls who would happily wear more on a beach than a bikini is they didn't think they'd be laughed at for being "prude". Loose fitting shirts, as previously mentioned, can be very comfortable. You get a nice breeze without the sun becoming over bearing.

    There is very strong scientific evidence that sustained exposure to high levels of sunlight really isn't good for your skin. Sometimes it's nice to feel the sun and wind against your skin, sometimes you want to be able to do beach activities for hours without any risk to health. Rash vests can also make entering an exiting water with large temperature differences/windy conditions much more comfortable. If comfort was the only concern I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it becoming a more common attire at beaches.

    I'm not sure how "fake blonde" is *****y or slut shaming. I think that says more about the reader tbh. Do you honestly think though that these "trophy girls" dress as they do for their own benefit, or for that of the man they're hanging off of who's paying for their holiday?

    I wouldn't class myself as a feminist either, but that's completely besides the point.

    As for how the burqa would have evolved, you do realise there are areas of the world where men and women where attire that is very similar for purely practical purposes? I'm not saying that people would be wondering around the centre of London wearing one; I'm just saying there's places on the planet, many of which are in muslim countries, where they are actually very practical.
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    [QUOTE=QE2;61340377]I'd be interested in the perfection and wisdom behind the permission to beat disobedient wives (4:34)

    Anything taken out of context can sound bad. Ill give you an example, if i were playing with my younger brothers and i said "im going to eat you", news reporter walking by would not write an article about a mad canabalistic sister who has threatned to eat her brothers. They would look at the back story, the context, they would go into detail.

    Islam is exactly the same. We have 2 sources, the quran snd the hadith. The quran is kind of like a very basic instruction manual, whereas the hadith explains how to follow the instructions and the details involved. For example (i love giving examples!!) The quran says give to charity, the hadith tells us that only a person owning x amount can donate, and it tells us how much to donate and who to donate to.

    Regarding this verse, muhammad peace be upon him commented on this verse saying that it should only be "a light tap that leaves no mark" , unfortunately many people do what you do, they read the ayat in the quran, do not back up with a hadith. And think that it is okay to beat the crap out of their wives for putting too much salt in their curry. It isn't! Hopefully i've cleared up that issue.

    People know when i walk past them that i am a muslimah, i am proud of my religion. I want to showcase my religion to the world.
    Why is it that when you leave the house you have to look a specific way. Youre not dressing up because you like to. Youre dressing up because you want all eyes on you.
    I genuinely like wearing what i wear. and maybe showcase was not necessarily the right word to use. It's more that i feel proud to be representing islam. That when i wslk the streets i carry the flag of islam with me. I don't necessarily want all eyes on me but i want people to realise that islam is not as bad as they think.
    However women who go through plastic surgery, who wear those corset things, who wear skyscraper heels, who wear very tight, very uncomfortable clothes, these are women who want to please others. The only person i satisfy by wearing what i wear is myself.

    The hijab is never going to be a symbol of oppression.
    Regarding the bikini, i do see that as a sign of oppression.
    I do not understand how this is ironic, please ellaborate....

    It is my choice. A sign of my freedom.
    they believr that ultimate freedom is dressing a specific way
    The difference is i am comfortable with what i wear, i am happy, i am pleasing no one but myself and my lord.
    And you get sooooo many cases where women are not comfortable with dressing how they are. If they honestly feel comfortable and are happy and it is their choice then fine. Thats okay.
    But answer me this, why do women dress completely differently indoors as opposed to out?

    By the way if you do have anymore questions please do ask. I am happy to answer them. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. but again, my arguments are filled with grammar and spelling mistakes. Hopefully you can forgive me for that.
    Peace x
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    I think that an important distinction needs to be made here which even the muslim community is beginning to forget to make. Hijab is not a headscarf. The headscarf is called a Khamr in arabic. 'Hijab' is a code of modesty, not restricted to, but including dress code (this aspect is called 'jilbaab' in arabic) which applies to both muslim men and muslim women.
    http://quran.com/24/31
    Evidence here.

    By calling the khamr the headscarf, you are aiding in what is effectively the destruction of male hijab as a practiced concept - and when muslims preach female modesty without male modesty, that becomes oppressive.
    Came here to say this, prsom.
    For any other Muslims or people unfamiliar with women's dress codes in the Quran here is a website that breaks it down and includes the chapters/verses that it is citing.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Not at all; I'm simply refuting the OP's argument going by the criterion that he used in his original post, namely whether it is worn by women for the benefit of men, and whether it would still be worn if men didn't exist.

    He pretty much claims that burqas are worn purely for the benefit of men, and that bikinis are worn purely for practical reasons, which is not at all the case.
    so you agree that there is nothing wrong with feeling sexually attacted to the human form, and that here is nothing wrong with maximising ones appearance to attract others sexually.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    so you agree that there is nothing wrong with feeling sexually attacted to the human form, and that here is nothing wrong with maximising ones appearance to attract others sexually.
    Of course I agree with that. If it weren't for those things, none of us would exist. In and of themselves, they're both perfectly acceptable (though we'd all agree that there are situations in which they're probably inappropriate or inadvisable).
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Of course I agree with that. If it weren't for those things, none of us would exist. In and of themselves, they're both perfectly acceptable (though we'd all agree that there are situations in which they're probably inappropriate or inadvisable).
    So why is Allah at such great pains to stop these from happening? Why does he think that they are unacceptable on every occasion?
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    (Original post by ruweyda97)
    I don't wear the veil, but i do wear loose fit clothing and a headscarf. But i don't wear what i wear just out of modesty. There are multiple reasons behind why i dress how i dress and i don't feel oppressed at all. I willingly do what i do. I am not influenced by western culture but rather my religion. And my religion is my choice. If i thought that the rules or ideas behind islam were wrong, then i simply would nof follow them. I belong to a culture where sadly women are married off really young, and where education is not important for a woman. But just because i belong in that culture that doesn't mean that i will follow the norms of that culture. For me islam is perfect and there is a certain wisdom behind everything that we are commanded to do and i see that wisdom so i follow the rules. Simple as.

    Other reasons behind hijab; it is a representation of me. The hijab is a part of me, it gives me strength. People know when i walk past them that i am a muslimah, i am proud of my religion. I want to showcase my religion to the world. The hijab is never going to be a symbol of oppression. It is my choice. A sign of my freedom. I am not a slave to western culture. I am a slave to allah. I feel most free when i can obey my lord freely. And thank allah i am able to do that in this country.

    Regarding the bikini, i do see that as a sign of oppression. People over here are almost brainwashed by what they see on media and outside that they believr that ultimate freedom is dressing a specific way. Looking a specific way. No pain no gain and all of that bs. If it were really your genuine choice to dress the way you do, why not wear bikinis and other "skimpy clothing inside the house when youre all alone. Why is it that when you leave the house you have to look a specific way. Youre not dressing up because you like to. Youre dressing up because you want all eyes on you. Why can't you be attractive wearing a comfortable pair of joggers and a tee like you do when you are at home alone. Ill tell you why its because media and the outside world has changed your perception of beautiful and it has done this to you without you even noticing. As cheesy as this sounds. Beauty comes from within. A pure and generous heart, that is beautiful, whats on the outside means nothing.

    Regarding doing regular activites in a burqa. I've been going to school for 2 years wearing hijab and not once have i found dificulty in walking around. I think lots of women will agree with me. Im not going to lie, i did wear the headscarf (3 years ago) but i used to wear it with skinny jeans etc. And at the time i didn't reallly see the importance of it. But now i wear full hijab my life hasn't changed much, i can still walk around, go to the shops, i can still enjoy myself whilst wearing hijaab.

    Sunbathing- i personally dont need to (because i have darker skin anyways), but even if i did, i could do it in my own backgardern, and outside beauty is not important to a muslim woman anyways, so sunbathing is not really an issue.

    Swimming - most swimming pools do offer women only sessions. In which case a muslim woman can go.

    so yeh. I disagree with what youve said and my reasoning is written above.
    (There are a few grammatical errors and spelling errors, i hope you can forgive me for that, but i am using my tablet and i cant be bithered to go back and fix my mistakes) should be readable though. Hopefully you understand what im trying to say. Woukd be a lot easier if i can say all this in person. Feel free to ask me whatever you wish to ask me!!
    Peace
    1) How can the hijab be a sign of your freedom if you are a slave to allah?
    2) No. If the hijab is NEVER a sign of opression, the bikini isn't either. There is no country in the world where you are forced to weak a bikini.
    3) Yes beauty is on the inside but many people agree that what's on the outside brings to people together, what's on the inside keeps them together.
    4) Not wearing a burka though, are you.
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    Out of curiosity, if the idea that you're forced to wear a burka in some places makes it a sign of oppression, surely clothing in general is an even bigger sign of oppression? I mean you're forced to wear that pretty much everywhere.
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    Nah man the burqa is not a sign of oppression at all. If you want proof just get any women in any Islamic nations/communities who seem to wear the veil quite a bit to instead wear "standard" Western clothing, they will face no issues of any kind, none, nil, zilch etc, it is 100% up to them, no family pressure, nothing to do with shame or honour, no problems with the community if they don't, none of this sexual assaults nonsense.
 
 
 
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