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Why you should VOTE STAY in the EU referendum Watch

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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    you'll probably see a lot of fearmongering and outright lies from people that want to leave
    What, like the markets will crash, economy will nose dive, 3 million people will instantly be out of a job, families will be thousands and thousands of pounds worse off, the door will close behind us, we'll be less safe and secure (despite what military top brass think) and are wide open to WWIII? Dear God :facepalm2:

    "our NHS is failing"
    True, and 1,000,000+ immigrants arriving in 2015 alone certainly ain't helping!

    "the UK is overpopulated"
    True, we have the highest population density of any of the medium-large nations in Europe

    "we give the EU money and never getting anything back"
    Please attribute this quote to any of the official leave campaign leadership, or else retract this pure, unadulterated, misinformation

    EU law protects YOU
    It also protects convicted criminals, terrorists, and unemployed migrants | BBC

    EU makes laws that cost British companies money, and we'd be more well-off financially if we could get rid of those laws
    Correct. Estimates vary from £10bn p.a. (HM Treasury) to £200bn (Professor Tim Congdon)

    The EU is very progressive
    Perhaps you're unaware of TTIP, or of the kind of character who will one day rule over all of Europe, including us Brits here in the UK



    they provide your consumer rights
    See TTIP for how much respect EU cronies have for our consumer rights

    product safety regulations
    Most of which are welcome, and many of which relate to prior British standards, and will no doubt continue to be implemented in the event of a Brexit. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous, this is Great Britain, not the Wild West!

    workers' rights
    As above, and there's absolutely no reason to suppose the electorate can't put pressure on our politicians to mirror those sensible, genuinely progressive EU directives that come out in this area, going forward

    Human Rights
    We have our own Human Rights Act, and all of the above applies here too - we're world leaders in these areas, you appear to be implying the opposite, which is deeply offensive to the memory of the brave men and women who have stood up for them and made reform happen

    head of MI6 wants to leave the EU so we can get rid of the Human Rights Act
    If you really think that spooks want to do this so they can terrorise the population, and that our elected politicians would allow this, I'm afraid you're living in a North Korean fantasy novel

    The EU .. is the largest economy in the world
    It’s not a single economy (thank God). Shouldn’t really need this Economist to tell you that

    Many economics think-tanks believe that our economy would suffer significantly if we were to leave the EU
    Depends how you define "significantly", and invariably they’re forecasting only for the short term, and on the basis of fairly fixed assumptions/in the absence of information regarding contingency planning re: a Brexit. Talk about blunt instrument!

    These policies .. often make it more favourable to trade with other EU states than with external states
    Yes, because of trade barriers which have absolutely decimated African agriculture, trade, and development. Progressive?

    If we were to leave the EU, this would almost definitely decrease, as we become less favourable to trade with
    Depends what trade deals we do, and how much extra trade we get as a pay-off for taking our trading destiny into our own hands. I’m a decorated graduate economist and political campaigner and don’t feel qualified to make a categorical call here, so God knows why you do

    all that means is that if we leave, everybody ends up worse-off
    No it doesn’t, what it means is that from an international political economy and economic realist perspective, we’re in a very good position to navigate the high seas of independence, sailing into the sunset: proud, prosperous, and secure

    we do not need to let in criminals
    We can only really block them if there is a clear, present threat to national security, in which case we have to share all relevant intelligence - not just with an EU judge, who has no vested interest in the security of our citizens and can rule on the basis of whatever (s)he fancies, but also with the fricking terror suspect! Any ‘leader’ who actually supports this demonstrably has a slack attitude to the safety/security of the good people of these isles and is unfit for public office

    currently 1.3 million Brits living elsewhere in the EU
    They’ve had their time in the sun, good for them – they’re covered by the Vienna Convention and if individual member states, or the EU at large, dismisses this there is always the prospect of extended residency by separate negotiation, and this demographic brings a heck of a lot to the party in financial/real estate terms so they’d be mad to eject them!

    lots of people come over from poorer countries to do unskilled labour, so they take our jobs. This isn't true
    Unless it is (75% of jobs presently go to non-Brits, most are low-pay) | GDN

    EU migrants contributed 34% more in taxes than they took in benefits
    If you look at the broader fiscal impact, estimates vary between +/- £2bn. In other words, they may actually add to the deficit, but either way, the impact is relatively small so you certainly cannot reasonably argue that they’re a huge boost to the exchequer

    Leave campaign is lying when they tell us that people are coming here for our welfare system
    Provide a direct quote from official campaign leadership making this categorical statement, or retract

    most immigrants are unskilled workers - 32% of EU migrants had a university education
    What is 100 minus 32? I’ll give you a clue, the answer is > 50. Dear me, self-defeating arguments ftw!

    we effectively pay less than £150 million per week
    We pay £165 million net each week (and rising), and this really is quite a lot of money, particularly when you consider that the gross contribution amounts to one fifth of the all important budget deficit that Osborne is usually so keen to bang on about (not so keen on this issue!)

    The EU has been particularly important in tackling Climate Change
    How’s that going? The UK produces less than 2% of CO2 emissions (and falling), and the last time I checked the UN had moved away from a mitigation agenda, towards adaptation. Mission failed. You need truly international consensus and commitments to tackle international issues in a meaningful, timely manner, rather than individual blocs acting unilaterally (and hence killing entire industries, like UK steel, and iconic brands, like Landrover Defender). Realpolitik

    European Regional Development Fund
    Our monies can be similarly channelled, probably much more effectively/targeted, when we wrest back control of them and chose what we spend our £250 million per week on ourselves. #VoteLeave #TakeControl


    Related article: Countdown to the Referendum: What We Should All Know About the EU vs. UK Independence

    Related article: David Mitchell: The UK's EU Referendum Should be a Matter for Politicians NOT Plebs
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)

    True, and 1,000,000+ immigrants arriving in 2015 alone certainly ain't helping!
    Source? The official figure was 330,000 for that year.

    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Perhaps you're unaware of TTIP, or of the kind of character who will one day rule over all of Europe, including us Brits here in the UK
    The government are committed to TTIP, so it's hard to see them not opting for a similar arrangement with the US if we left the EU - indeed, the most likely scenario is that they would apply for the UK to be incorporated within its terms.

    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    As above, and there's absolutely no reason to suppose the electorate can't put pressure on our politicians to mirror those sensible, genuinely progressive EU directives that come out in this area, going forward
    Is that the sensible, progressive Ian Duncan-Smith, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage? Not to mention Boris, the hedge funder's friend.

    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    We have our own Human Rights Act, and all of the above applies here too - we're world leaders in these areas, you appear to be implying the opposite, which is deeply offensive to the memory of the brave men and women who have stood up for them and made reform happen
    True and how strange then that the modern right want to come out of an agreement that was originally engineered by British conservative thinkers and lawyers.

    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Yes, because of trade barriers which have absolutely decimated African agriculture, trade, and development. Progressive?

    Agreed, but what makes you so confident that British Conservatives would do things differently? I also note that it is UKIP that constantly moan about the 0.7% of UK GDP target for foreign aid.

    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    We can only really block them if there is a clear, present threat to national security, in which case we have to share all relevant intelligence not just with an EU judge, who has no vested interest in the security of our citizens and can rule on the basis of whatever (s)he fancies, but also with the fricking terror suspect! Any ‘leader’ who actually supports this demonstrably has a slack attitude to the safety/security of the good people of these isles and is unfit for public office
    There are problems with the EAW scheme as it stands, but let's just remember for a minute that it has also helped up speedily pick up terror suspects elsewhere in the EU. It does need reform though.

    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    We pay £165 million net each week (and rising), and this is quite a lot of money, particularly when you consider that the gross contribution amounts to one fifth of the all important budget deficit that Osborne is usually so keen to bang on about (not so keen on this issue!)
    EU budgets are much more under control than they were and there is no increase currently planned, largely due to British intervention.

    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    How’s that going? The UK produces less than 2% of CO2 emissions (and falling), and the last time I checked the UN had moved away from a mitigation agenda, towards adaptation. Mission failed. You need truly international consensus and commitments to tackle international issues in a meaningful, timely manner, rather than individual blocs acting unilaterally (and hence killing entire industries, like UK steel, and iconic brands, like Landrover Defender). Realpolitik

    Vehicle emission standards are a global push, the EU is part of that, but nothing would change outside the EU - we would still have to adhere, as there is so much pressure elsewhere. The Land Rover Defender was not dropped primarily because of those standards, but due to declining market share and sales. Perhaps consumers are ahead of Leavers in their taste for environmentally sensitive vehicles.

    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Our monies can be similarly channelled, probably much more effectively/targeted, when we wrest back control of them and chose what we spend our £250 million per week on ourselves. Take Control
    You seem to have a touching faith in the willingness of our government to replace EU initiatives. More than likely, this money, along with the basic contributions themselves, would simply be retained by the Treasury as part of austerity.

    Note that this is precisely what Gove, Johnson and Farage all believe in - they are all Reduced Government people with no interest in public spending or in enhancing the NHS or other public services.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Source?
    Telegraph (ONS, 2016)

    The official figure was 330,000 for that year
    That's net, long term migration dear. Attention to detail: the difference between a first-class Economist and a PPE tag along

    The government are committed to TTIP, so it's hard to see them not opting for a similar arrangement with the US if we left the EU
    They're committed to arranging a trade deal, for sure, but TTIP as is won't fly with the electorate, and they know that

    Ian Duncan-Smith, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage? Not to mention Boris
    1) Politics of personality is not enlightened; 2) I take your broad point but it is up to the British people to Democratically determine the best people/agenda to represent/satisfy their needs, not Brussels. Personally I'd like to see PR, and recognise that's a distant prospect, but there's no sense remaining caged in the EU just because we don't like our domestic political system or those who currently preside over it - that's the very definition of "quitting"!

    how strange then that the modern right want to come out of an agreement that was originally engineered by British conservative thinkers and lawyers
    1) They didn't know what they were signing up to, or if they did then they allowed careless presumptions/self-interest to colour their judgement, to the detriment of our nation; 2) How far back are we talking? 1973? 1993? Times change amigo

    what makes you so confident that British Conservatives would do things differently?
    You can't have it both ways duck. Either they're pursuing a free market approach a la TTIP or they're building walls. We'll still need to protect agriculture to some extent, but I certainly can't see us dumping (any more) food on Africa, going forward (not sure we dump all that much as it is?)

    UKIP that constantly moan about the 0.7% of UK GDP target for foreign aid
    If you look more closely you'll see that Farage & pals bemoan where it goes, and support things like disaster relief. You'll find this mirrors the sentiments of the majority of UK citizens

    let's just remember for a minute that it has also helped up speedily pick up terror suspects elsewhere in the EU
    These issues are not limited to the EAW but you probably don't need me to go into more detail on its other failings, nor explain how we operate extradition protocols outside of the EU perfectly satisfactorily in most cases, nor perhaps how it is in the interests of both UK and the continent to cooperate on matters of terrorism (not least because we have the finest intelligence/security services in Europe, if not the world)

    EU budgets are much more under control than they were and there is no increase currently planned, largely due to British intervention
    Agreed, but sadly we’re still not happy e.g. with the largess, waste and illogicality, misallocations, and fraud. For a textbook example:



    Vehicle emission standards are a global push, the EU is part of that, but nothing would change outside the EU - we would still have to adhere, as there is so much pressure elsewhere
    Personally, as a cyclist I have no problem with that, but you know full well that vehicular emissions are a fraction of global CO2

    The Land Rover Defender was not dropped primarily because of those standards, but due to declining market share and sales
    Source?

    Perhaps consumers are ahead of Leavers in their taste for environmentally sensitive vehicles
    1) If Western consumers were ahead of the pace then my dissertation would have been on a different topic altogether; 2) It’s mistaken to assume that leavers are all e.g. right-wing, climate change deniers, Eurosceptic by default, UKIP etc. You are exhibiting the very prejudice that Guardianistas like yourself build your whole identity/worldview around purporting to deplore. Bit silly really

    You seem to have a touching faith in the willingness of our government to replace EU initiatives
    You seem unprepared to engage with the fact that most EU initiatives have replaced/build on protocols that already existed, in legislature or in essence, prior to the EU/EEC and/or would have come to be, sooner or later, anyway. Again, we are not the Wild West, we have very fine public servants and institutions and I would invite you to join me in acknowledging that, rather than constantly doing Great Britain down, as if we’re one step away from becoming a North Korea

    More than likely, this money, along with the basic contributions themselves, would simply be retained by the Treasury as part of austerity
    Initially, perhaps, yes, there will be costs involved in a Brexit, for sure, and if I weren’t so certain that the EU is going to implode in the next few years whatever the weather then this would take a little wind out of my sails, but I am, so it doesn’t. You need to comprehend the magnitude of the colossal collapse that the Eurozone is teetering on the brink of. There will come a point at which ECB helicopter money can no longer stave off market confidence wobbles and the whole lot comes crashing down. Just look at the state of French/Italian banks, and German financial sector exposure to Southern Europe
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    Not going to post a massive paragraph so here's a really nice article instead:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ked-help-elite
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    If migrants are going to come here illegally, our EU membership has nothing to do with it.
    So what about what's happening in Germany? They are trying to get there illegally and the EU is basically saying accept them. Have you seen Calais? Do you

    What? The EU invests in the poorest parts of the country. How did you come to this conclusion?
    Wages are staying low because of the EU, especially public sector jobs. Why is this? Because of uncontrolled immigration. Great for businesses, not for quality of life.

    Except....... they aren't? The statistics are in the OP. You can't call something a lie because you don't like it. EU immigrants are more skilled than non-EU immigrants. This is a fact.
    What do you mean by "skilled"? You're not being specific. High-skilled workers like doctors, lawyers, teachers, lecturers etc or are you talking about cashiers, construction workers? Because we have a deficit in high-skilled jobs. Most of our low-skilled jobs right now are in a surplus.

    And yet despite that points system, EU immigrants are more skilled than non-EU immigrants. We aren't even controlling non-EU immigration properly.
    We have the power to control non-EU immigration, look who is talking about not controlling immigration "properly". Like I said, non-EU immigration is marginally higher than EU immigration, practically the same numbers. If there is an in flux we won't be able to control EU immigration will we?

    The deficit is going down. They have the money to build houses, they just aren't building them. That won't change if we leave the EU.
    I'm not saying it won't change. But assuming that you are a socialist and believe in quality of life, it would be cheaper to get a house if we leave than if we remain. Having immigration at this rate doesn't really help...

    I haven't seen any ads paid for by the remain campaign saying any of this. Like I said, there's a difference between individuals saying something and a campaign paying to advertise something.
    It doesn't have to be adverts... The Remain Campaign has actually said these things, people from your campaign, yes your campaign have said that. I wasn't even talking specifically about adverts so I don't know why you're bringing it up trying to make me look like I'm wrong. The Remain campaign, is not perfect, period.

    I explain 4 disadvantages of leaving in the OP.
    Sorry I mean one disadvantage of remaining.
 
 
 
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