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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    Yeah basically this. None of the vote leave population will understand this post though.


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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    I understand it, i 100% agree that there will be negative consequences in the short run of a Brexit but where we differ is the long term.
    Well, what is the difference in the long term?

    The EU will always be the UK's biggest market because it is next door. If the UK wants to trade with them then it will be exactly the same as it is now except with no voting rights.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, what is the difference in the long term?

    The EU will always be the UK's biggest market because it is next door. If the UK wants to trade with them then it will be exactly the same as it is now except with no voting rights.
    Unfortunately that just isn't the case. Over time our exports value to the EU has declined rapidly: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...UK-growth.html

    He thinks that the UK will suffer from a lack of investment and big companies will move abroad.
    I think although investment may fall in short run, it will pick up again and companies won't move anywhere. Also diversification of trade can't be a bad thing especially given the dire financial situation of EU economies.
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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    Unfortunately that just isn't the case. Over time our exports value to the EU has declined rapidly: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...UK-growth.html

    He thinks that the UK will suffer from a lack of investment and big companies will move abroad.
    I think although investment may fall in short run, it will pick up again and companies won't move anywhere. Also diversification of trade can't be a bad thing especially given the dire financial situation of EU economies.
    Keep coming back to this same point every time!!!!

    Toyota, some financial institutions and others have OPENLY STATED they WILL move jobs. You saying they won't is complete garbage - like you know their tax, and financial affairs?
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    (Original post by Axion)
    Yes, the more likely Leave goes through, the more turbulent the markets are becoming and the more evident the economic impact is going to be. Over £110bn wiped off the Uk markets alone over the past week when Remain odds have shortened from 70% to 57%, and the markets starting to tank.

    Still who cares right.... right?
    You understand markets moving are due to uncertainty.. right? So when leave was a 1 in 4 chance... there is little risk of uncertainty. Now leave is priced at 5/4 (Slightly worse than 1/1...) We have very real uncertainty about which way the UK will go...

    You have framed it as: leaving more likely > Billions wiped off = Leaving is bad for economy

    Truth: Leaving more likely > chances now 50/50 = extreme uncertaintity which way UK will go = Major uncertainty and money wiped off

    The fact you got 13 likes shows the level of ignorance or deceit from the remain side and i would suggest is why the polls are slipping away from you, because enough people are seeing straight through it
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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    You are derisive and a snob [sic]. But even worse than both of these; you're wrong. (More confusingly, you also seem to think derisive is a noun when it's clearly an adjective...)


    Someone makes a decision you disagree with, you call them uneducated and want to take the decision out of their hands! Indeed, what's the point of a democracy at all? Why don't we just have all the people who think themselves 'clever' make all the decisions for us!


    It's not complicated to want to live under your own laws voted for by your own MPs. It's not complicated to want control of your own borders. It's not complicated to want to make trade deals with the 160 countries in the world without being vetoed by Italian tomato farmers.


    I can't wait for the morning of June 24th when we awaken to find out the great British public has throw your elitist nonsense out the window! Hurrah!

    SS
    'You are derisive. She is derisive. They are derisive.' This is someone calling other people derisive. Derisive is an adjective. An adjective is a describing word. Ergo, I can be called, or described as being, derisive. And frankly I am not going to apologise for this derision because I've seen Brexit arguments, and those of people who subscribe to its politics.

    In any case, your regression to making petty remarks on grammar doesn't reflect well on your upcoming arguments but let's break them down shall we?

    Someone makes a decision you disagree with, you call them uneducated and want to take the decision out of their hands! Indeed, what's the point of a democracy at all? Why don't we just have all the people who think themselves 'clever' make all the decisions for us!


    You are putting words into my mouth.I believe that, universally, voters are not educated enough to make the decision on whether we should leave the EU (do I need to repeat this again?). You are not educated enough. I am not educated enough. Which is why this referendum never should have been called for in the first place, and I am furious with David Cameron and his counterparts for allowing it to fall into our hands. Leave or not, the country will be left almost irreparably divided following a referendum that never should have existed.

    POLITICS 101: We live in a democracy - we vote for the politicians. It is the politicians' duties to collectively make these legislative arrangements and come to reasonable compromises, and yes, make the majority of decisions. Rather than what the referendum offers us: 'tally ho, let's abandon ship!' or 'stay without promise of reform'.

    However, for me the prospect of remaining in the EU is far more enticing because - whether you'd like to admit it or not - it is probable that reform will ensue, and it's a hell of a lot easier to reform something when you are an integral part of it. The alternative is inexcusably selfish on Britain's part, to bail out and leave the EU member states at risk of fragmenting, without even attempting to change the status quo.

    It's not complicated to want to live under your own laws voted for by your own MPs. It's not complicated to want control of your own borders. It's not complicated to want to make trade deals with the 160 countries in the world without being vetoed by Italian tomato farmers.


    Claims that the Brexiteers' desires 'are not complicated' couldn't be further from the truth. They would invoke immensely, endlessly complex repercussions and overturning the current systems in place is a needlessly complex process.

    live under your own laws voted for by your own MPs
    Contrary to popular belief, the EU isn't some dictatorship that subjugates its members and forces laws on them. It's a cooperative arrangement between states and has input from Britain. You're contradicting your own statements - do you want politicians to vote and make decisions on our behalf or not?

    control of your own borders
    We never gave up control of our borders. We never agreed to Schengen. If economic migrants come into the EU then make their way to the UK a visa is demanded.

    As a matter of fact, leaving the EU removes us from the Dublin regulation and so asylum seekers wouldn't need to have applications examined and the flow of asylum seekers will become more difficult to regulate. I mean, I'm all for taking a higher number of asylum seekers, but that's precisely what many Brexiteers vehemently campaign against.

    make trade deals with the 160 countries in the world without being vetoed by Italian tomato farmers
    Firstly, I need a citation for that.

    Secondly, those trade deals are not a given, nor will they be easy to attain.

    49% of trade is with the EU. Sure, we can restablish those trade links from outside the EU, but why would we do that when we already have them? Britain also reaps the benefits of free trade around the world from its membership in the EU - not to mention the fact that the EU is in the process of establishing trade with some of Britain's closest counterparts including the United States.

    I can't wait for the morning of June 24th when we awaken to find out the great British public has throw your elitist nonsense out the window! Hurrah!
    The irony of calling me elitist when you support a campaign headed by an Etonian and you're a member of the Monarchist society. But that irony is probably lost on you.

    Apologies, I shouldn't resort to ad hominem :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    Unfortunately that just isn't the case. Over time our exports value to the EU has declined rapidly: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...UK-growth.html
    That still doesn't change the fact that the EU is the biggest export market by a significant distance.

    The rest of the world will continue to grow in importance but it won't replace the importance of the EU because it is next door.

    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    He thinks that the UK will suffer from a lack of investment and big companies will move abroad.
    I think although investment may fall in short run, it will pick up again and companies won't move anywhere. Also diversification of trade can't be a bad thing especially given the dire financial sit]
    Well, companies have already said that they will move jobs in the short term. So, you are just making things up when you are saying they won't move anywhere.

    Has one company said that they will invest more if Brexit happens? No. It provides no financial advantage whatsoever.
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    (Original post by 09876543211)
    In economic terms, a short term could be longer than our lifetimes. I'd rather see the economy declining at a slow rate rather than see it go into a recession and all the benefits (if any) we will never see. It's not a win situation when the house prices are going down, causing landlords to struggle to stay in the market; less competition for university places as less EU students would be applying, causing borderline retarded people to get degrees; and I don't want to be applying for visa to go to Spain or Greece on the holidays.
    Remain side = Think of the poor millionaire landlords enslaving the population pushing rents sky high

    University places ooo less competition thats bad

    Funnily enough the rents and tuition fee's have risen skyhigh with so much demand.

    Worst argument for your side EVER
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    (Original post by Axion)
    Keep coming back to this same point every time!!!!

    Toyota, some financial institutions and others have OPENLY STATED they WILL move jobs. You saying they won't is complete garbage - like you know their tax, and financial affairs?
    What is it with your obsession with Toyota?: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1afaf414-b...5c9a029fb.html

    Financial firms : "However, the executives told parliament’s Treasury committee on Wednesday that a Brexit was unlikely to unseat the City of London as Europe’s main financial centre. They added that the precise impact of leaving the EU would depend on what terms the UK managed to negotiate regarding its future relationship with the bloc."

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d0af25ac-b...5bba42e51.html

    Banks threatening jobs could be misleading as i know they are currently outsourcing many BO roles abroad to cheaper areas such as ireland/poland to cut down costs. Interesting to see what would happen to FO tho.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    That still doesn't change the fact that the EU is the biggest export market by a significant distance.

    The rest of the world will continue to grow in importance but it won't replace the importance of the EU because it is next door.



    Well, companies have already said that they will move jobs in the short term. So, you are just making things up when you are saying they won't move anywhere.

    Has one company said that they will invest more if Brexit happens? No. It provides no financial advantage whatsoever.
    1. As our trade becomes smaller, the benefits go down and costs of being in the EU rise. For many people the economy alone isn't the whole side of the equation. many people dislike how our 'voice' is being more and more diluted and eventually we will have little direct control over the laws of our country. The EU started out as a single market idea (which i don't disagree with) but has evolved and will continue to evolve to be more and more like a united states of europe.

    2. Big businesses can threaten all they want because the senior management may not want to deal with the short term negativity and headache the Brexit will bring, it doesn't mean they will actually follow through with their actions.
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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    1. As our trade becomes smaller, the benefits go down and costs of being in the EU rise. For many people the economy alone isn't the whole side of the equation. many people dislike how our 'voice' is being more and more diluted and eventually we will have little direct control over the laws of our country.

    2. Big businesses can threaten all they want because the senior management may not want to deal with the short term negativity and headache the Brexit will bring, it doesn't mean they will actually follow through with their actions.
    1. Well do you want to trade with the EU or not? If you want to trade with them then you will have to pay like everyone else does.

    2. You are basically hoping that they are lying about leaving. No businesses have said they will invest more in a Brexit. So it provides no financial advantage.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    1. Well do you want to trade with the EU or not? If you want to trade with them then you will have to pay like everyone else does.

    2. You are basically hoping that they are lying. No businesses have said they will invest more in a Brexit. So it provides no financial advantage.

    1. We will still be able to trade with the EU despite not being in the EU.

    2. It wouldn't be the first time big business has lied to get what it wants.
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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    1. We will still be able to trade with the EU despite not being in the EU.
    Well, if you want access to the single market then you will have to pay and have Freedom of movement.

    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    2. It wouldn't be the first time big business has lied to get what it wants.
    Difference is that you have no evidence that they are lying.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    Yes we did!

    I said there were ups and downs.

    Actually the history of the post Norman Conquest is another very good argument for leave.

    Because of it successive English Kings got caught in a sort of early European Union, with lands all over France. It caused all sorts of rivalries and problems.

    We didn't see the end of centuries of warfare until we finally lost all those possessions in continental Europe.
    Lmao the biggest reach I have ever seen
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, if you want access to the single market then you will have to pay and have Freedom of movement.

    Difference is that you have no evidence that they are lying.
    We can still trade, would just to subject to tariffs.

    No, but the constant flip floping from senior execs. But put it this way; where are they most likely to move to? Europe.

    What could stop then from moving right away? Potential domino effect of EU breaking up (many eurosceptic countries atm demanding referendums), not worthwhile profit wise. Takes time to conjure up relocation plans.

    What could stop them relocating in longer term? We establish good trade deals, UK recovers and they decide it's not that bad to stay after all.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    1. Well do you want to trade with the EU or not? If you want to trade with them then you will have to pay like everyone else does.

    2. You are basically hoping that they are lying about leaving. No businesses have said they will invest more in a Brexit. So it provides no financial advantage.
    Do non-EU countries trade with EU countries? Yes.

    e.g. the US, China

    So why the single market? So no tariffs between member states.

    Please don't act like there'll be "no trade", because that simply isn't true.

    Mayhaps "potentially limiting trade", but it is in their interests to have a good trading relationship because we are the biggest export market for goods for the rest of the EU.


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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    We can still trade, would just to subject to tariffs.l.
    So....then how can you expect Nissan or any other company to stay if their products are subject to tariffs?

    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    No, but the constant flip floping from senior execs. But put it this way; where are they most likely to move to? Europe.

    What could stop then from moving right away? Potential domino effect of EU breaking up (many eurosceptic countries atm demanding referendums), not worthwhile profit wise. Takes time to conjure up relocation plans.

    What could stop them relocating in longer term? We establish good trade deals, UK recovers and they decide it's not that bad to stay after all.
    Well, again, there isn't any evidence of the EU breaking up. The core countries will most likely increase their ties in any case to prevent another disaster like Brexit.

    You are literally hoping that complete disaster happens on the continent, so that companies won't leave.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Do non-EU countries trade with EU countries? Yes.

    e.g. the US, China

    So why the single market? So no tariffs between member states.

    Please don't act like there'll be "no trade", because that simply isn't true.

    Mayhaps "potentially limiting trade", but it is in their interests to have a good trading relationship because we are the biggest export market for goods for the rest of the EU.


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    No. I am talking about access to the Single market. Try reading what we are talking about instead of interfering half way through a convo.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    You understand markets moving are due to uncertainty.. right? So when leave was a 1 in 4 chance... there is little risk of uncertainty. Now leave is priced at 5/4 (Slightly worse than 1/1...) We have very real uncertainty about which way the UK will go...

    You have framed it as: leaving more likely > Billions wiped off = Leaving is bad for economy

    Truth: Leaving more likely > chances now 50/50 = extreme uncertaintity which way UK will go = Major uncertainty and money wiped off

    The fact you got 13 likes shows the level of ignorance or deceit from the remain side and i would suggest is why the polls are slipping away from you, because enough people are seeing straight through it
    That's not the truth, that's the stupid argument.

    Leaving more likely > More chance of an economic downturn incl. a potential 1-2 year period of recession > markets react badly.

    Not least because this referendum has major economic and political implications for the rest of Europe. If the market thought Brexit was good, then we'd have seen a strengthening of market indices in the UK!!!

    Your chain of reasoning is incredibly absurd.
 
 
 
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