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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I went to a state school and achieved very good results. We had streams which allowed the best to be in classes where they were pushed while also giving the less academic students the support they needed.

    Now how is a grammar school better than that?
    Stop looking for excuses for not doing as well as you should have.

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    well in my state school there was streams but it was easier for the teachers to let you wallow in your set already. stop being a monumental **** and projecting your experience onto everyone else.
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    (Original post by neal95)
    well in my state school there was streams but it was easier for the teachers to let you wallow in your set already. stop being a monumental **** and projecting your experience onto everyone else.
    I'm sick of people making excuses. You want to succeed then work hard, you don't need a grammar school. Do you think kids at grammar schools walk around reading encyclopedias?

    There is zero evidence that grammar schools increase social mobility.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I'm sick of people making excuses. You want to succeed then work hard, you don't need a grammar school. Do you think kids at grammar schools walk around reading encyclopedias?

    There is zero evidence that grammar schools increase social mobility.

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    I am going to become a corporate lawyer. I am going to succeed. I don't need a grammar school. I am only saying I could have done bette.
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    We live in the day of the Internet and technology. If you think your teacher is preventing you from getting from an A to an A* then maybe you don't deserve an A*. There may be special subjects like possibly English, but from maths to sciences to even languages, you can use the Internet to get an A*.

    What's much more important is primary school and early secondary school. You need to instill a certain attitude in kids that makes them want to learn, and not see school as uncool.
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    (Original post by neal95)
    I take responsibility for my own underachievements. however all I am saying is that the state schools throws in variables that parents cant control. you would be a thick uneducated **** to argue against that assertion. I wasn't the most studious individual, however in the environment I was in it wasn't "cool" to study. If I went to a place that was more rigorous concerning acadmemics I am sure I would have done better. stop sucking up to the establishment and try and empatathise for a change. just a bit of constructiver criticism
    I'm sure that peer pressure and the anti-aspiration, anti-intellectual, anti-studying culture in many state schools can have this negative effect, but then surely it is more important to improve things in these state schools, and hence for the vast majority, than it is to make sure the top 10% don't get dragged down? Wouldn't pretty much anyone do better somewhere more academically rigorous?

    Also, to be honest the state of GCSEs (at least before the overhaul-I cannot speak for them right now) is such that one hardly needs to be a hard worker, if they are academically "gifted". I went to a pretty poor comprehensive school (bottom 25% in Wales); I had a friend, a very high performer in standardised tests, there who was tremendously lazy, and just crammed the night before, if that, but got 3 A*s, 5As and 2Bs IIRC. Myself I could barely work and come out with A*s and As in mocks, though admittedly I knuckled down (in a sense - I still revised far later than is generally advised) for the actual exams. So I do wonder what intelligent people are doing to significantly underperform at GCSE level. I suppose that my education was really not that bad relative to the horror stories I have heard from others in some comprehensives. Even though our school didn't have the best resources or the best statistics, the anti-studying culture was less pronounced. So perhaps that explains it.
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    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    I'm sure that peer pressure and the anti-aspiration, anti-intellectual, anti-studying culture in many state schools can have this negative effect, but then surely it is more important to improve things in these state schools, and hence for the vast majority, than it is to make sure the top 10% don't get dragged down? Wouldn't pretty much anyone do better somewhere more academically rigorous?

    Also, to be honest the state of GCSEs (at least before the overhaul-I cannot speak for them right now) is such that one hardly needs to be a hard worker, if they are academically "gifted". I went to a pretty poor comprehensive school (bottom 25% in Wales); I had a friend, a very high performer in standardised tests, there who was tremendously lazy, and just crammed the night before, if that, but got 3 A*s, 5As and 2Bs IIRC. Myself I could barely work and come out with A*s and As in mocks, though admittedly I knuckled down (in a sense - I still revised far later than is generally advised) for the actual exams. So I do wonder what intelligent people are doing to significantly underperform at GCSE level. I suppose that my education was really not that bad relative to the horror stories I have heard from others in some comprehensives. Even though our school didn't have the best resources or the best statistics, the anti-studying culture was less pronounced. So perhaps that explains it.
    I agree! You don't often see an anti-intellectual environment at grammar schools. In fact, it's much the opposite. As much as it is the teachers job to encourage students to learn, the student's attitude will take them much further.
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    Why should a child born with a higher IQ, have the opportunity to have a better funded education?
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    (Original post by niteninja1)
    To all the people arguing having a separate school for intelligent students is wrong. Is it wrong that "special" needs students usually go to a separate school
    Are you honestly trying to compare a group of people which have complex and often severe mental, emotional, social and/or physical needs with a group of people that score slightly better than others on a test?*
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    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    I'm sure that peer pressure and the anti-aspiration, anti-intellectual, anti-studying culture in many state schools can have this negative effect, but then surely it is more important to improve things in these state schools, and hence for the vast majority, than it is to make sure the top 10% don't get dragged down? Wouldn't pretty much anyone do better somewhere more academically rigorous?

    Also, to be honest the state of GCSEs (at least before the overhaul-I cannot speak for them right now) is such that one hardly needs to be a hard worker, if they are academically "gifted". I went to a pretty poor comprehensive school (bottom 25% in Wales); I had a friend, a very high performer in standardised tests, there who was tremendously lazy, and just crammed the night before, if that, but got 3 A*s, 5As and 2Bs IIRC. Myself I could barely work and come out with A*s and As in mocks, though admittedly I knuckled down (in a sense - I still revised far later than is generally advised) for the actual exams. So I do wonder what intelligent people are doing to significantly underperform at GCSE level. I suppose that my education was really not that bad relative to the horror stories I have heard from others in some comprehensives. Even though our school didn't have the best resources or the best statistics, the anti-studying culture was less pronounced. So perhaps that explains it.
    dpnt get me wrong I didn't bomb my gcses but I didn't get any a* grades either, a large part of that was not being entered for higher papers, although for English I was
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    (Original post by SCIENCE :D)
    Why should a child born with a higher IQ, have the opportunity to have a better funded education?
    Having a higher IQ does not determine those who attend a grammar school! I'd put it to hard work and determination. The education really is no different to a comprehensive it's the mentality of the student as well as the teacher. (an enthusiastic teacher teaching intellectually driven students will achieve much more than the same teacher with students that do not want to obtain academic excellence).
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    (Original post by umar39)
    Having a higher IQ does not determine those who attend a grammar school! I'd put it to hard work and determination. The education really is no different to a comprehensive it's the mentality of the student as well as the teacher. (an enthusiastic teacher teaching intellectually driven students will achieve much more than the same teacher with students that do not want to obtain academic excellence).
    Hard working 11 hear old? Do me a favour. Do tell me how that's better than a streamed school..

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Hard working 11 hear old? Do me a favour.

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    I think you'd be surprised by those who are intellectually driven....
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    (Original post by neal95)
    I am going to become a corporate lawyer. I am going to succeed. I don't need a grammar school. I am only saying I could have done bette.


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    There is nothing a grammar school can do that a streamed school cannot. And a streamed school doesn't leave behind less academic children to rot.
    If you make it as a corporate lawyer then you couldn't have done better.
    Do you have a training contract?
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    "it's about social mobility" suuuure it is
    How can allowing intelligent poor students to attend good schools with high quality teachers be a bad thing?

    At the moment a lot of them would have to attend poor deprived schools with poor teaching, which will clearly reduce their potential whilst the rich kids get to get good teaching at private schools.Poor students can often perform worse due to the bad behaviour often seen at poor schools, which can lead to them joining the bad behaving pupils and not working hard for their education.

    Clever poor students are often held back in state schools, like my teacher once mentioned how she could form a small group who could sit the exam earlier and she had to move the exam till later as the class was not grasping the concepts(I remember factorising quadratics that my teacher had to teach again as I was the only one who could do it as I could do it in my head).

    I often feel that the school system at the moment is practically useless for average/low achieving students, who forget virtually everything they learned at school.Introducing more Grammar Schools can allow those who fail the 11+ test(or equivalent) to go into schools more suitable for them were they will learn more functional skills(budgeting, basic Maths and English rather than Algebra and Trigonometry) more relevant to them.While the clever students skip all this and go onto more advanced topics like Calculus in Secondary School.

    Such a system would probably help stop the dumbing down of education we have seen since new Grammar Schools were banned from being created, with new GCSEs only being sat by those in Grammar Schools with those in other schools achieving functional/vocational certificates(similar to the 1960s I believe).

    I do think it is important that we allow some transition between Grammar Schools and whatever the other schools shall be called, as students shouldn't feel trapped in a particular school and should feel if they work hard they can earn the right to be moved up to Grammar School and badly behaved students in Grammar Schools can be easily expelled into the other schools so that the top quality education in these Grammar Schools isn't ruined.
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    (Original post by umar39)
    I think you'd be surprised by those who are intellectually driven....
    Oh do me a favour. No 11 year old is like that.

    I went to a state school and achieved 7A* at GCSE and 2A* at A Level.
    I outperformed all my grammar and private school friends.

    You don't need a grammar school.

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    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    How can allowing intelligent poor students to attend good schools with high quality teachers be a bad thing?

    At the moment a lot of them would have to attend poor deprived schools with poor teaching, which will clearly reduce their potential whilst the rich kids get to get good teaching at private schools.Poor students can often perform worse due to the bad behaviour often seen at poor schools, which can lead to them joining the bad behaving pupils and not working hard for their education.

    Clever poor students are often held back in state schools, like my teacher once mentioned how she could form a small group who could sit the exam earlier and she had to move the exam till later as the class was not grasping the concepts(I remember factorising quadratics that my teacher had to teach again as I was the only one who could do it as I could do it in my head).

    I often feel that the school system at the moment is practically useless for average/low achieving students, who forget virtually everything they learned at school.Introducing more Grammar Schools can allow those who fail the 11+ test(or equivalent) to go into schools more suitable for them were they will learn more functional skills(budgeting, basic Maths and English rather than Algebra and Trigonometry) more relevant to them.While the clever students skip all this and go onto more advanced topics like Calculus in Secondary School.

    Such a system would probably help stop the dumbing down of education we have seen since new Grammar Schools were banned from being created, with new GCSEs only being sat by those in Grammar Schools with those in other schools achieving functional/vocational certificates(similar to the 1960s I believe).

    I do think it is important that we allow some transition between Grammar Schools and whatever the other schools shall be called, as students shouldn't feel trapped in a particular school and should feel if they work hard they can earn the right to be moved up to Grammar School and badly behaved students in Grammar Schools can be easily expelled into the other schools so that the top quality education in these Grammar Schools isn't ruined.
    Why can't we achieve all that through streamed schools? I did.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
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    There is nothing a grammar school can do that a streamed school cannot. And a streamed school doesn't leave behind less academic children to rot.
    If you make it as a corporate lawyer then you couldn't have done better.
    Do you have a training contract?
    I am about to enter my second year and am going to be applying for training contracts and vacation schemes this year. I have been to a number of open days and am part of social mobility programmes which will hopefully help me on the way to bagging a TC
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Oh do me a favour. No 11 year old is like that.

    I went to a state school and achieved 7A* at GCSE and 2A* at A Level.
    I outperformed all my grammar and private school friends.

    You don't need a grammar school.

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    You are one individual amongst how many thousands?

    It's great to hear of your academic success and I admire you for that but you simply can't state that grammar schools are similar to state schools in all aspects of school life because that is simply not true. There are many reasons that I have collated from my experience at a grammar school (which of course may not be similar to all grammar school students) which is reasonably sound proof to disprove your point that 'You don't need a grammar school' (both academically and in extra-curricular terms)
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    (Original post by neal95)
    I am about to enter my second year and am going to be applying for training contracts and vacation schemes this year. I have been to a number of open days and am part of social mobility programmes which will hopefully help me on the way to bagging a TC
    Doesn't look like a state education has failed you at all given that you're at a RG uni and going to be a corporate lawyer.

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    (Original post by umar39)
    You are one individual amongst how many thousands?

    It's great to hear of your academic success and I admire you for that but you simply can't state that grammar schools are similar to state schools in all aspects of school life because that is simply not true. There are many reasons that I have collated from my experience at a grammar school (which of course may not be similar to all grammar school students) which is reasonably sound proof to disprove your point that 'You don't need a grammar school' (both academically and in extra-curricular terms)
    If you work hard enough you can succeed whichever school you are at. Grammar schools are not the magic solution people pretend they are. Well funded structured streamed schools are the answer. They push the brightest students on while supporting the less academic. They also allow for late bloomers and to cater to your needs for each subject.

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