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    (Original post by TheIr0nDuke)
    Ad hominem, nice.

    Those who work for it are able to better their quality of life.
    Don't act as if you are some profoundly intellectual debater by crying ad hominem. At any rate, it would only constitute ad hominem if I was trying to use it to undermine your argument - which I wasn't so it wasn't a fallacy.

    That was an insult not an ad hominem.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    is it really so hard to just give me a brief explanation and not look as if you're running away from the argument?
    If it's so hard for you to find the post yourself, I'll copy it in here for you:

    'Because at some point (in monarchical and developing feudal systems) there was an assumption that some humans just are born better than others. It is the concept that high-born children just do have a higher intrinsic value than low-born ones. Nowadays we consider that ridiculous, right? Capitalism doesn't reflect this being ridiculous - even if it isn't written into capitalism as a concept it is certainly the outcome of it running its course.'

    Someone made your point before you.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    I certainly disagree. We have tried to create the system dozens of times and It has never succeeded, usually ending in an authoritarian dictatorship. Believing that the proletariat can just seize the means of production is like allowing the livestock to run the farm.

    The best system is the one which gives the most personal and financial freedom to the individual while maintaining a level of order.

    (Original post by TheIr0nDuke)
    Enjoy daydreaming about a theory that cannot and will not ever come to fruition.

    Actually, there are plenty of examples showing the structures of communism/anarchism being feasable. Paris commune, revolutionary Catalonia, Ukrainian free territory, Zapatistas in Mexico, etc. Plus modern humans for the majority of our existence lived communally in communes which were classless and stateless. Engels called this 'primitive communism'. Then you can look at the progress which was made in the Ussr, Cuba, etc. Now while a true communist society has not been established (meaning living in a complete classless, stateless, moneyless world society where the workers own the means of production and where capitalism does not exist), all of these examples(and there are more) clearly suggest that the basic structures of communism/anarchism are feasible as practice shows and can work. The only reason why a true communist/anarchist society has never been achieved is down to massive capitalist and fascist influences.

    Of course capitalists pretentiously will claim it isn't, this is to be expected, if it was they would not be in power and would not be able to hoard onto masses of wealth and resources at the expense of the workers and masses.

    Some of you should read Homage to Catalonia by Orwell, he fought alongside the anarchists in the Spanish civil war and praised how they lived. Here is a quote from the book :

    "I had come to Spain with some notion of writing newspaper articles, but I had joined the militia almost immediately because at that time and in that atmosphere it seemed the only conceivable thing to do. The Anarchists were still in virtual control of Catalonia and the revolution was in full swing . . . it was the first time that I had ever been in a town where the working class was in the saddle. Practically every building of any size had been seized by the workers and was draped with red flags or the black and red flag of the Anarchists; every wall was scrawled with the hammer and sickle and with initials of the revolutionary parties; almost every church had been gutted and its images burnt . . . Every shop and café had an inscription saying it had been collectivised . . .Waiters and shop-walkers looked you in the face and treated you as an equal. Servile and ceremonial forms of speech had temporarily disappeared . . . There were no private motor cars,they had all been commandeered . . . And it was the aspect of the crowds that was the queerest thing of all. In outward appearance it was a town in which the wealthy classes had practically ceased to exist . . . Above all, there was a belief in the revolution and the future, a feeling of having suddenly emerged into an era of equality and freedom. Human beings were trying to behave as human beings and not as cogs in the capitalist machine."
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    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    So how many "selfless" acts do you perform on a daily basis then? Or are you another left wing hypocrite who doesn't live by what they preach?
    I'm a nice enough person, I spent 2 hours volunteering in an oxfam shop today as I have once a week for the last 2 years. There's not a whole lot more I can do really - at any rate I live in a system which discourages selfless acts.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    Don't act as if you are some profoundly intellectual debater by crying ad hominem. At any rate, it would only constitute ad hominem if I was trying to use it to undermine your argument - which I wasn't so it wasn't a fallacy.

    That was an insult not an ad hominem.
    Truly believing in communism just means you have a sub-80 IQ anyway. Anyone with a brain can see the pattern in history it has created.

    Ad hominem = personal attack. You labeled me an arrogant bigot (not backed up, by the way) which is a personal attack on me rather than the argument I made. Are you retarded?
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    (Original post by TheIr0nDuke)
    Truly believing in communism just means you have a sub-80 IQ anyway. Anyone with a brain can see the pattern in history it has created.

    Ad hominem = personal attack. You labeled me an arrogant bigot (not backed up, by the way) which is a personal attack on me rather than the argument I made. Are you retarded?
    Not that it matters but I have been tested in the 160 range. I didn't want to put it here but you seem to want me to.

    An ad hominem FALLACY means a personal attack IN THE CONTEXT OF A DEBATE. I wasn't trying to debate anything with you, in fact I had previously said that I didn't want to. I just wanted to insult you because you were asking for it.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    Not that it matters but I have been tested in the 160 range. I didn't want to put it here but you seem to want me to.

    An ad hominem FALLACY means a personal attack IN THE CONTEXT OF A DEBATE. I wasn't trying to debate anything with you, in fact I had previously said that I didn't want to. I just wanted to insult you because you were asking for it.
    Hahahahaha lmao try harder plebeian

    We were debating communism. I argued my point, you insulted me. Ad hominem.

    'Weeeh he's right wing I won't debate him I'll just insult him instead of rebutting his points'

    t r a s h
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    If it's so hard for you to find the post yourself, I'll copy it in here for you:

    'Because at some point (in monarchical and developing feudal systems) there was an assumption that some humans just are born better than others. It is the concept that high-born children just do have a higher intrinsic value than low-born ones. Nowadays we consider that ridiculous, right? Capitalism doesn't reflect this being ridiculous - even if it isn't written into capitalism as a concept it is certainly the outcome of it running its course.'

    Someone made your point before you.
    ...*or* human beings are naturally selfish and that assumption was there already...:/ umm?
    also, if we're all naturally altruistic, some being better changes nothing about our nature.
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    (Original post by TheIr0nDuke)
    Hahahahaha lmao try harder plebeian

    We were debating communism. I argued my point, you insulted me. Ad hominem.

    'Weeeh he's right wing I won't debate him I'll just insult him instead of rebutting his points'

    t r a s h
    Oh if you're talking about that I merely decided I don't want to argue with you. At this stage I can tell who's going to provide me with new and interesting points against communism and who's going to come out with generic and flawed points. I'm afraid you fell in the latter category. If you need proof, notice how I continued debating with others while I turned you down. Don't take it personally. Please stop replying as this chain of conversation is offering nothing.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    ...*or* human beings are naturally selfish and that assumption was there already...:/ umm?
    also, if we're all naturally altruistic, some being better changes nothing about our nature.
    Capitalists in theory believe everyone should be born equal as well, you know that right?
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    (Original post by Artyom17)
    How many is capitalism responsiple for? And religion? I could go on and on. From the Native American genocide to the millions dead in Iraq. All for the profit interests of the few. Then there is more capitalist imperialism and colonialism which is directly responsible for the deaths of millions.
    I tried starting a thread on that topic if you want to bump it. It's just a link to revleft but I thought it might be interesting.
    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=4272044
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    Capitalists in theory believe everyone should be born equal as well, you know that right?
    firstly, that's true, at least in terms of liberalism.
    secondly, just because we're all "equal" in a lockean sense, that doesn't mean that some people are physically or mentally "better" than others. even socialists would realise that fact of reality.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    I'm a nice enough person, I spent 2 hours volunteering in an oxfam shop today as I have once a week for the last 2 years. There's not a whole lot more I can do really - at any rate I live in a system which discourages selfless acts.
    That's fair enough

    I did volunteer to help out at a Paralympic Training Camp in 2011 (for London 2012) so not all us capitialists are "evil" .

    Society doesn't "discourage" selfless acts though. People, just naturally put themselves first. Anyone who says they don't is lying. This doesn't mean you can't look out for others btw
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    (Original post by New_Frontiers)
    I tried starting a thread on that topic if you want to bump it. It's just a link to revleft but I thought it might be interesting.
    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=4272044
    If I'm honest I'm not sure if it's worth discussing on TSR. Most here seem to be strongly anti-communist which means one has to spend all their time defending it instead of discussing different variations of it.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    If I'm honest I'm not sure if it's worth discussing on TSR. Most here seem to be strongly anti-communist which means one has to spend all their time defending it instead of discussing different variations of it.
    Yes I agree it totally failed. The only person who commented was the right winger you've been arguing with.
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    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    That's fair enough

    I did volunteer to help out at a Paralympic Training Camp in 2011 (for London 2012) so not all us capitialists are "evil" .

    Society doesn't "discourage" selfless acts though. People, just naturally put themselves first. Anyone who says they don't is lying. This doesn't mean you can't look out for others btw
    I don't necessarily believe capitalists are evil, just that they live under an evil system. After all, if I hated all capitalists I'd be a pretty lonely person!

    Capitalism in a way does discourage selfless acts - to give away money you are giving away the greatest asset (under capitalism) and putting yourself at a disadvantage relative to others who don't perform these acts.
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    (Original post by New_Frontiers)
    Yes I agree it totally failed. The only person who commented was the right winger you've been arguing with.
    People on this site are mostly either too young, too simple or too lazy to consider the benefits of communism to be honest. (That wasn't a dig at capitalists, I'm just saying that to evaluate communism requires a level of openmindedness that a lot of people lack - the people in this thread generally do not lack this skill).

    Revleft is a very technical and complex forum however which assumes a lot of prior knowledge. I feel like there should be some middle ground where people can learn the basics of communist principles and actually give them a fair chance. Unfortunately I don't know of any such platform.
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    (Original post by Artyom17)
    Actually, there are plenty of examples showing the structures of communism/anarchism being feasable. Paris commune, revolutionary Catalonia, Ukrainian free territory, Zapatistas in Mexico, etc. Plus modern humans for the majority of our existence lived communally in communes which were classless and stateless. Engels called this 'primitive communism'. Then you can look at the progress which was made in the Ussr, Cuba, etc. Now while a true communist society has not been established (meaning living in a complete classless, stateless, moneyless world society where the workers own the means of production and where capitalism does not exist), all of these examples(and there are more) clearly suggest that the basic structures of communism/anarchism are feasible as practice shows and can work. The only reason why a true communist/anarchist society has never been achieved is down to massive capitalist and fascist influences.
    These societies all lasted less than 5 years or are rebel groups. "Classless and stateless", stateless maybe, but you would have to be genuinely stupid to think that hunter-gatherer societies were classless. Even in Marxist stage theory admits that there is a clear distinction between shamans/elders and the best hunters and the rest in pre-civilisation societies. Blaming the other ideas is a stupid argument, because communism should be strong enough to succeed while facing competing ideologies. The fact it couldn't succeed proves it was a bad idea.

    (Original post by Artyom17)
    Of course capitalists pretentiously will claim it isn't, this is to be expected, if it was they would not be in power and would not be able to hoard onto masses of wealth and resources at the expense of the workers and masses. <-- Or maybe it is because they want the freedom to have businesses and get hired, alternatively.

    Some of you should read Homage to Catalonia by Orwell, he fought alongside the anarchists in the Spanish civil war and praised how they lived. Here is a quote from the book :
    You seem to forget that there was ****ing tons of infighting in Republican Spain, particularly towards the end.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    People on this site are mostly either too young, too simple or too lazy to consider the benefits of communism to be honest. (That wasn't a dig at capitalists, I'm just saying that to evaluate communism requires a level of openmindedness that a lot of people lack - the people in this thread generally do not lack this skill).

    Revleft is a very technical and complex forum however which assumes a lot of prior knowledge. I feel like there should be some middle ground where people can learn the basics of communist principles and actually give them a fair chance. Unfortunately I don't know of any such platform.
    I agree. Also just by looking at the threads which trend here I can see that it is largely a pointless exercise. I was surprised to find somebody like you here.

    As for middle ground r/communism101 might be useful to somebody with no prior understanding. But the difficulty is getting people interested in political thought in the first place.
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    (Original post by New_Frontiers)
    I agree. Also just by looking at the threads which trend here I can see that it is largely a pointless exercise. I was surprised to find somebody like you here.

    As for middle ground r/communism101 might be useful to somebody with no prior understanding. But the difficulty is getting people interested in political thought in the first place.
    I seem to be something of an anomaly - almost everyone I know is a capitalist - my social circles are the sort to be dominated by capitalists. Whenever I try to mention communism in conversation I get shut down very quickly which is why I tried to make this thread; in the end it just became yet another test of my zeal.

    I generally group non-communists into 4 categories:

    Those who benefit from capitalism.

    Those who don't have the mental capacity to consider political theory and philosophy.

    Those who don't have the time or energy to learn about communism.

    Those who have capitalism so deeply ground into them that they defend it as though it's their life.

    These 4 must make up at least 99% of the population which makes our cause pretty impossible unfortunately.

    Still, with new technology and better education there is hope.
 
 
 
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