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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    BUT WHY WERE YOU ASKING ME THOSE THINGS?!

    I shouldn't have come back. We're done. WE'RE DONE.
    Okay

    Aurevoir.
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    (Original post by mevidek)
    I suppose so, but I can't see how their (the TSR Libertarians') version of politics could ever work in the real world, which probably explains why a libertarian has never been voted into power here.
    Has yet to be voted into power. The centre ground in British politics is today far to the right of where it was in 1945 or even 1960 and 1970. We are moving towards their world and further away from ours. Look at who is disillusioned with the way of life offered in the United Kingdom - not people such as Cyclopsrock but people like me and you whose ideals are squeezed further and further out of the mainstream of political life by all parties. The Libertarians have grown stronger here precisely because there is practically no difference between them and the Tories. When I first started here, there was a very clear difference.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    Oh. Sorry. So you support collective bargaining as long as workers don't have anything to bargain with. That totally works.

    Ffffff. That's not the same as collective bargaining rights.
    They can bargain with the fact that competition will enable them to take their expertise elsewhere as happens in the private sector.
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    (Original post by mevidek)
    It is because of the strikes. Can you provide me evidence that you're correct?
    The evidence is the lack of evidence for any strikes taking place.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Has yet to be voted into power. The centre ground in British politics is today far to the right of where it was in 1945 or even 1960 and 1970. We are moving towards their world and further away from ours. Look at who is disillusioned with the way of life offered in the United Kingdom - not people such as Cyclopsrock but people like me and you whose ideals are squeezed further and further out of the mainstream of political life by all parties. The Libertarians have grown stronger here precisely because there is practically no difference between them and the Tories. When I first started here, there was a very clear difference.
    What did the Tories used to be like on here?
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    What did the Tories used to be like on here?
    Non-existent, a lot of the time. They actually dissolved through lack of activity for a few terms and we had a very left-wing parliament! Those were dark days.

    I have to say, as someone who has been involved as a Libertarian in this house since 2005, I don't remember specifically a huge divide, but I think the old Tories were more akin to the IRL Tories - more socially conservative. Today, I don't think it's so much that we are like you - it's that you are like us.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Has yet to be voted into power. The centre ground in British politics is today far to the right of where it was in 1945 or even 1960 and 1970. We are moving towards their world and further away from ours. Look at who is disillusioned with the way of life offered in the United Kingdom - not people such as Cyclopsrock but people like me and you whose ideals are squeezed further and further out of the mainstream of political life by all parties. The Libertarians have grown stronger here precisely because there is practically no difference between them and the Tories. When I first started here, there was a very clear difference.
    It pains me to say this, but you're right. I hope that people realise how bad a decision it would be to vote in people like Cyclopsrocks or one of the other Libertarians... I also hope that people turn back to the left (albeit not too far left) for Governments that actually care about their people, like the Attlee Government.
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    Fair enough, we do have some some broadly Libertarian members however we do still have a few social authoritarians (tehFrance and Moleman being two and i used to be one).
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    They can bargain with the fact that competition will enable them to take their expertise elsewhere as happens in the private sector.
    There's no guarantee that conditions will improve under a free labour market - remember, businesses are clever - they can work with each other. A race to the bottom is far more likely to occur as there is an incentive to minimise the cost of labour to enhance profit made off of it. Just look at the effects of globalisation on raw job markets in Asia.

    I'm glad that - after several hours - we've settled the fact that the Tory leader doesn't support collective bargaining rights.
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    The evidence is the lack of evidence for any strikes taking place.
    http://labourlist.org/2012/01/privat...rs-strike-too/
    http://www.wragge.com/analysis_7931.asp#.T34YivD_pGQ

    Just two websites that tell you about private sectors striking.

    Oh, and a note on evidence: a lack of evidence (which my argument has not) is not evidence.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    There's no guarantee that conditions will improve under a free labour market - remember, businesses are clever - they can work with each other. A race to the bottom is far more likely to occur as there is an incentive to minimise the cost of labour to enhance profit made off of it. Just look at the effects of globalisation on raw job markets in Asia.

    I'm glad that - after several hours - we've settled the fact that the Tory leader doesn't support collective bargaining rights.
    Well there is the key word.

    I have no objection to collective bargaining, but i object to their current rights.
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    (Original post by mevidek)
    I suppose so, but I can't see how their (the TSR Libertarians') version of politics could ever work in the real world, which probably explains why a libertarian has never been voted into power here.
    About 1% of the population probably knows what libertarianism is, and who the libertarian party are. And even within that 1%, is probably some skewed view.
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    (Original post by mevidek)
    http://labourlist.org/2012/01/privat...rs-strike-too/
    http://www.wragge.com/analysis_7931.asp#.T34YivD_pGQ

    Just two websites that tell you about private sectors striking.

    Oh, and a note on evidence: a lack of evidence (which my argument has not) is not evidence.
    According to the video on one of the links Unilever employees launched their first national strike in 2002. The company has existed since 1930 so much for your theory of only strikes causing pay increases.
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    About 1% of the population probably knows what libertarianism is, and who the libertarian party are. And even within that 1%, is probably some skewed view.
    No, I'd say it's more.

    People don't vote them in, because (hopefully) people realise that Libertarianism is dangerous.
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    According to the video on one of the links Unilever employees launched their first national strike in 2002. The company has existed since 1930 so much for your theory of only strikes causing pay increases.
    Did the strikes not lead to the increase in pay?

    Can't you see it? Strikes aren't simply for the public sector.
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    (Original post by mevidek)
    Did the strikes not lead to the increase in pay?

    Can't you see it? Strikes aren't simply for the public sector.
    Yet pay certainly increased drastically from 1930 to 2002 without any strikes. The same is true across most other companies as well. You can't argue with the facts, the primary cause for wage increases is the competition for labour not strike action.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Because that's their politics. In the same way that your social democratic values are your politics. For most of the Libertarians here, their interaction with the state is often the negative face of it - they went to private schools, work in the private sector, and so forth. By negative I mean, they see a wage packet reduced by 32% (if not more) a month to pay for services which you and I use but they do not or have not. It's like trying to explain the beauty of Beethoven's music or the majesty of Shostakovich to a deaf person.
    You sure?

    And yes, most of my interactions with the state, and its operatives, have been negative.

    Education, the Police, tax, power, military occupation threatening our freedoms and safety, surveillance, free speech, having to pay for a Tv lisence depite hardly ever watching the BBC.
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    (Original post by mevidek)
    No, I'd say it's more.

    People don't vote them in, because (hopefully) people realise that Libertarianism is dangerous.
    I really have to disagree, hardly anyone knows what (right) libertarianism is, and I reckon a lot of the population can find some common ground, a lot in fact

    - War
    - Drugs
    - Marriage
    - Tax
    - Road Laws
    - Free speech
    - negative liberty
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    Yet pay certainly increased drastically from 1930 to 2002 without any strikes. The same is true across most other companies as well. You can't argue with the facts, the primary cause for wage increases is the competition for labour not strike action.
    Because pay in general, across the public and private sectors, increased.

    Can't you see the correlation :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by mevidek)
    Because pay in general, across the public and private sectors, increased.

    Can't you see the correlation :rolleyes:
    Which was caused by competition not strikes.
 
 
 
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