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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Both sides agreed that the fence around Gaza should remain in place in the Oslo accords
    There is a buffer zone inside of Gaza manned by the Israeli's. Even going by the 1967 lines, this is inside of Gaza.

    Israel occupies Gazan land and exercises control over it's imports and exports.

    Ergo, Israel is the de facto ruler of Gaza.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Superb.

    On Sky News the other day the headline was (I kid you not) "pregnant woman killed in Israeli air strike"

    Next day a Thai worker in Israel is killed by a rocket, no headline for him though.

    Is this the only conflict in history where the so-called victims who're crying to the media at every opportunity, are refusing ceasefires unless all their demands are met?
    There are questionable actions on both sides of the conflict but many of them are justifiable although controversial. But the one act by either side that absolutely cannot be excused is Hamas's use of its own people as human shields.

    Even time you bring up human shields the pro-Palestinians will either ignore you, or respond with an irrelvant generic comment like "Israel is an apartheid state", "Israel is committing genocide", or "Israel is occupying Gaza".

    Has it never occurred to the pro-Palestinians why the current conflict only involves Gaza and not the West Bank? It's because the West Bank isn't run by anti-Semitic extremists who have no aims other than to hate and destroy those the don't like. After all, surely if Israel hated all Palestinians and wanted to commit genocide against them, they'd be going to war with all of Palestine, no?

    Issues that actually matter to the people of Gaza, such as, erm, not being used as human shields, or not being forced to flee their homes, don't seem to matter to Hamas. All they are interested in is getting as many Western bleeding-heart liberals on their side as possible.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    There is a buffer zone inside of Gaza manned by the Israeli's. Even going by the 1967 lines, this is inside of Gaza.

    Israel occupies Gazan land and exercises control over it's imports and exports.

    Ergo, Israel is the de facto ruler of Gaza.
    I don't blame Israel for ensuring control over imports into a country whose sole aim is to destroy Israel and sacrifice its own civilians in the process.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    I don't blame Israel for ensuring control over imports into a country whose sole aim is to destroy Israel and sacrifice its own civilians in the process.
    Pasta was banned until Senator John Kerry, in 2010, exclaimed at the absurdity of it.

    What was the pasta going to do? Choke an Israeli?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Pasta was banned until Senator John Kerry, in 2010, exclaimed at the absurdity of it.

    What was the pasta going to do? Choke an Israeli?
    I'm not saying the minutiae of Israel's regulations on imports into Gaza are perfect, but you and I both know they exist for a just reason: which is that if Israel did not control imports into Gaza, then we would see Gaza quickly accumulate more powerful weapons that would be used to kill Israelis. It's nothing more than self-defence.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    I'm not saying the minutiae of Israel's regulations on imports into Gaza are perfect,
    Except Israel regards the imports into Gaza as a "central pillar in the armed conflict against Israel".

    According to that BBC article:

    Canned meat and tuna are allowed but canned fruit is not.
    Tea and coffee allowed but not chocolate
    Mineral water but not fruit juice

    but you and I both know they exist for a just reason: which is that if Israel did not control imports into Gaza, then we would see Gaza quickly accumulate more powerful weapons that would be used to kill Israelis. It's nothing more than self-defence.
    Israel does not allow any goods to cross the border unless it's on an approved list.

    Furthermore, it states that disclosure of what is and what is not allowed to be imported would "damage national security and harm foreign relations".
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    Zionism has such a violent history no wonder even Jews reject it many are even realizing that it is not compatible with Judaism. You just need to look at the history Hagganah and Irgun used to bomb people, murder people, shoot people to achieve what they want look to the current day of Zionism the Mossad and IDF who are also terrorists. Mossad are the ones who trained Taliban fighters in Pakistan and they do have links to 9/11 amazing how 4 Israelis are caught with explosives but they were never questioned and given the chance to back to Israel same with the white van driver who also had tonnes of explosives in his van turned out he was a Mossad agent he was never questioned also. And you look at the IDF today anyone that is against them they will kill them just last year they shot an American women who was saying what your doing is wrong what happens she gets shot in the eye how very "defensive" NOT. Also they only give Palestinians a 2-3 min to leave their homes where the hell are they gonna go in that time? Gaza is 7 miles in 2-3 mins wherever they go they will still be in Gaza hence getting rockets and missiles fired at them and Israel know many innocent people will die. I am not saying Hamas are perfect but using them as an excuse every time for Israel's savagery does not help its just a way to shut down debate and admit what IDF do is wrong.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Except Israel regards the imports into Gaza as a "central pillar in the armed conflict against Israel".

    According to that BBC article:

    Canned meat and tuna are allowed but canned fruit is not.
    Tea and coffee allowed but not chocolate
    Mineral water but not fruit juice



    Israel does not allow any goods to cross the border unless it's on an approved list.

    Furthermore, it states that disclosure of what is and what is not allowed to be imported would "damage national security and harm foreign relations".
    That's not relevant to the point I was making.

    We agree that the minutiae aren't perfect, but my point and the broader reason for Israel's control of imports still stands - they need to stop weapons coming in.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    That's not relevant to the point I was making.

    We agree that the minutiae aren't perfect, but my point and the broader reason for Israel's control of imports still stands - they need to stop weapons coming in.
    It's not like anyone from Israel will actually be importing weapons into Gaza.

    If any weapons are coming in, it's coming in from Rafah making the import restriction from the Israeli side largely redundant.
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    Colonel Richard Kemp CBE

    Talks about latest hostilities.

    Video in link

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...548821,00.html

    Very well spoken.

    Says Israeli army goes beyond the British and American forces in trying to prevent civilian casualties.
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    The website “Walla!” published talkback comments on an article about the four children killed on the Gaza beach.

    Shani Moyal: “I couldn’t care less that Arab children were killed, too bad it wasn’t more. Well done to the IDF.”

    Stav Sabah: “Really, these are great pictures. They make me so happy, I want to look at them again and again.”


    Sharon Avishi: “Only four? Too bad. We hoped for more.”

    Daniela Turgeman: “Great. We need to kill all the children.”

    Chaya Hatnovich: “There isn’t a more beautiful picture than those of dead Arab children.”

    Orna Peretz: “Why only four?”

    Rachel Cohen: “I’m not for children dying in Gaza. I’m for everyone burning.”

    Tami Mashan: “As many children as possible should die.”
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    We can't say bad things about Muslim people it is Islamaphobic or what ever that made up word is.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Colonel Richard Kemp CBE

    Talks about latest hostilities.

    Video in link

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...548821,00.html

    Very well spoken.

    Says Israeli army goes beyond the British and American forces in trying to prevent civilian casualties.
    Some things people should take into consideration.

    During the Gaza war, Kemp disputed allegations of Israeli war crimes without ever having visited Gaza.

    He writes articles for Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs which advocates itself as "pro-Israeli", whose director is the former Israeli ambassador to the UN and current foreign policy advisor to the Benjamin Netanyahu.

    He appeared before the UN HRC in 2009 and stated that "based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: during operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in the combat zones than any other army in the history of warfare" - Bear in mind his assertion that he had never actually visited Gaza during this period.

    He has relied extensively on the Israeli government over various periods of time for a variety of reasons.

    He, like Benjamin Netanyahu, engages in a lot of "whataboutery"...

    He is apparently a fundamental Christian Zionist who communicates with dead soldiers...


    Oh, and the ironic thing is that he labels himself as an "objective person"...
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    The website “Walla!” published talkback comments on an article about the four children killed on the Gaza beach.

    Shani Moyal: “I couldn’t care less that Arab children were killed, too bad it wasn’t more. Well done to the IDF.”

    Stav Sabah: “Really, these are great pictures. They make me so happy, I want to look at them again and again.”


    Sharon Avishi: “Only four? Too bad. We hoped for more.”

    Daniela Turgeman: “Great. We need to kill all the children.”

    Chaya Hatnovich: “There isn’t a more beautiful picture than those of dead Arab children.”

    Orna Peretz: “Why only four?”

    Rachel Cohen: “I’m not for children dying in Gaza. I’m for everyone burning.”

    Tami Mashan: “As many children as possible should die.”
    There are people with extreme views on both sides. It doesn't really demonstrate anything if you find a minority of Israelis making abhorrent comments as we know just as well that a minority of Palestinians do the same.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    There are people with extreme views on both sides. It doesn't really demonstrate anything if you find a minority of Israelis making abhorrent comments as we know just as well that a minority of Palestinians do the same.
    I've come to notice that the vast majority of pro-Israeli supporters engage in an incredible amount of "whataboutery".

    In the last couple of posts, there is:

    You: What about Palestinians who make the same comment?

    Richard Kemp: What about HAMAS who use civilians?

    Netanyahu: You are investigating war crimes against us. What about HAMAS?


    My question to pro-Israeli supporters is this:

    Why do pro-Israeli supporters engage in bouts of whataboutery to defend their positions not understanding the fact that they hold themselves out to be a "liberal democracy" and "the only democracy in the ME" which implies that they are better than HAMAS and above the actions perpetrated by other "terrorist" organisations?
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    There are people with extreme views on both sides. It doesn't really demonstrate anything if you find a minority of Israelis making abhorrent comments as we know just as well that a minority of Palestinians do the same.
    The difference is that on the 'palestinain' side, "death to Jews" is on their TV's, on children's shows and through every media.
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    More stupid comments from an Israeli minister urging FIFA to not hold the World Cup in Qatar:

    "Economy Minister Naftali Bennett calls on FIFA to cancel the soccer World Cup planned for 2022 in Qatar.“Qatar is one of the the greatest state sponsors of terrorism,” Bennett says. “The Hamas headquarters are based in Qatar, Qatar finances Hamas terror activity. Qatar is one of the main sources of unrest right now in the region … The world needs to decide if the World Cup is a cup of soccer or a cup of terror.

    The 2018 FIFA World Cup is taking place in Russia
    The World Cup is a cup of football, not politics.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I've come to notice that the vast majority of pro-Israeli supporters engage in an incredible amount of "whataboutery".

    In the last couple of posts, there is:

    You: What about Palestinians who make the same comment?

    Richard Kemp: What about HAMAS who use civilians?

    Netanyahu: You are investigating war crimes against us. What about HAMAS?


    My question to pro-Israeli supporters is this:

    Why do pro-Israeli supporters engage in bouts of whataboutery to defend their positions not understanding the fact that they hold themselves out to be a "liberal democracy" and "the only democracy in the ME" which implies that they are better than HAMAS and above the actions perpetrated by other "terrorist" organisations?
    The point I was trying to make is that you can't put forward the views of an extreme minority as an argument that the entire group is evil.

    I don't label all Palestinians as scumbags because a few of them have extreme views. So nor should pro-Palestinians label all pro-Israelis as scumbags just because a few of them revel in the deaths of Palestinian children.

    Whataboutery is a weak argument but that's not what I'm doing. I believe that Hamas are the bad guys here because they are the ones using human shields and leading their own people to their deaths. That is not as bad as anything Israel are doing. I'm not saying Israel are faultless, but human shields are way beyond anything Israel has done.
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    Playing devils advocate here. Is the land not really better off in the hands of an ally, a democracy and a wealthy, powerful nation as opposed to a poor Islamic state who would no doubt geg caught up in the Sunni-Shia conflict.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    The point I was trying to make is that you can't put forward the views of an extreme minority as an argument that the entire group is evil.
    "An extreme minority". Mate, there were crowds on Sderot cheering as the bombs fell on Gaza. These posters are usualy everyday Israeli's. That's the Israeli mindset. There is an "extreme minority" and that is those who do not wish to see more suffering in Gaza like B'Tselem.

    Hell, when members of your Knesset start calling for genocide against the Palestinians, when your ministers start calling for the operation to be expanded, when your military intentionally shells hospitals and schools, that my friend, is not an "extreme minority"...

    I don't label all Palestinians as scumbags because a few of them have extreme views. So nor should pro-Palestinians label all pro-Israelis as scumbags just because a few of them revel in the deaths of Palestinian children.
    Why are you engaging in whataboutery? Why do many pro-Israeli's do this?

    You say you are "better than HAMAS". Demonstrate that. Do not equate your actions with HAMAS. You have designated HAMAS a "terrorist organisation", shall we call you a terrorist state in return?

    Whataboutery is a weak argument but that's not what I'm doing. I believe that Hamas are the bad guys here because they are the ones using human shields and leading their own people to their deaths. That is not as bad as anything Israel are doing. I'm not saying Israel are faultless, but human shields are way beyond anything Israel has done.
    What do you mean "you are not doing" when you have already done it in this post?

    Can I see your source for "HAMAS using human shields"?
 
 
 
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