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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    Displaying one video from five years ago does not explain nor justify the current bombing of Palestinians.
    Displaying 'palestinians' firing from a UN-run school in Gaza. does not having any bearing?

    LOL

    We even know that the UN admitted the schools were being used to house rockets.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Article by Mehdi Hassan countering popular Israeli claims:

    1) "We pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005... we pulled out of every inch."
    Israel likes to pretend that the occupation of Gaza ended with Ariel Sharon's 'unilateral disengagement' from the strip in August 2005. It didn't. Israel is still, legally, the occupying power and continues to control Gaza's territorial borders, coastal waters and airspace. In fact, as Harvard University Middle East expert Sara Roy noted in the Boston Globe in 2012: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones -- areas of restricted access -- now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three..." Israel also continues to control the Palestinian Population Registry, which has the power to define who is a "Palestinian" and who is a legal resident of Gaza. Does Gaza sound sovereign, independent or un-occupied to you?


    2) "Hamas took over the Gaza Strip by force."
    Yes it did, in June 2007, after being elected to office in January 2006. But what Taub omitted to mention is that it did so in order to pre-empt a coup planned by the Bush administration and egged on by the Israelis. As investigative journalist David Rose pointed out in his acclaimed Vanity Fair piece on the coup, based on leaked documents from the US State Department, it was "President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams [who] backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."


    3) "At the end of the day democracy is... some sort of commitment to basic democratic values."
    Put to one side the fact that Israel rules over millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem while denying them the right to vote in Israeli elections, let's take a look for a moment at the 'democratic' fate of Palestinians who live legally inside of Israel as citizens of the Jewish State. There are, according to Ha'aretz, "695 communities, located in regional councils that control about 80 percent of the state's land" which have vetting committees, protected by law, that prevent Palestinian citizens of Israel from buying or renting property in those communities. Israel also operates discriminatory citizenship laws - chief among them, the 1950 Law of Return and the 1952 Citizenship Law - which privilege Jewish citizens over Palestinian citizens. What happened to "basic democratic values"?


    4) "Hamas has brutalised the people of Gaza."
    Yes it has. Hams is undoubtedly guilty of massive human rights abuses inside Gaza. But does that excuse Israel's 47-year brutalisation of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories? Consider this Reuters report from June 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields. Palestinian children in the Gaza and the West Bank, captured by Israel in the 1967 war, are routinely denied registration of their birth and access to health care, decent schools and clean water, the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said." Is this not brutalisation? Is this not a massive abuse of Palestinian human rights? How about bombing a cafe in which Gazans were watching the World Cup? Or bombing ashelter for Gaza's disabled residents?


    5) "Israel has been trying to show restraint."
    If "restraint" results in 500-plus dead in a matter of days, the vast majority of them civilians, including kids on beaches and disabled people in shelters, then I wouldn't want to see what Taub defines as a lack of restraint. Also, as I mentioned in my remarks to Vine, Israel is using the Dahiya doctrine which, as the 2009 United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict noted, is an Israeli security concept coined by former IDF general Gadi Eizenkot that involves "the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations". Targeting civilian populations and properties isn't evidence of "restraint", it's evidence of war crimes.


    6) "This was a [ceasefire] proposal that was presented to both Israel and Hamas."
    This isn't true and Taub knows it. The proposed ceasefire deal last week was struck between Egyptian president al-Sisi and Israeli prime minister Netanyahu, with the help of 'peace envoy' Tony Blair - but without any Hamas involvement. Hamas official, Mushir al-Massri, told Al Jazeera, "that the group was never involved in the formulation of the ceasefire and only learned about it from media reports. He said his group rejected the proposal 'in style because no body consulted with us in formatting it, [and] in content because its articles are a free service to the [Israeli] occupation'." To quote Sharif Nashashibi: "It is extraordinary that a supposed mediator between two warring parties would exclude one of them from the process."


    7) "Hamas has been obstructing people from getting the food and the medicines that they need."
    Maybe, but are we expected to believe that the Israelis care about the health and well-being of the people of Gaza? According to a 'secret' US State Department cable, based on conversations between US diplomats and senior Israeli officials, revealed by Wikileaks in 2011: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed ... on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." Also, official Israeli documents, released to the Gisha human rights organisation under Freedom of Information legislation, showed that "the Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010" and then refused to allow in enough trucks of food to meet those "daily calorie needs".


    8) "I have absolutely no idea what reports [about flechette shells] you're referring to."
    Perhaps Taub, who stuttered as he responded to Vine's very simple question on flechette use, should read the Guardian: "The Israeli military is using flechette shells, which spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal metal darts, in its military operation in Gaza. Six flechette shells were fired towards the village of Khuzaa, east of Khan Younis, on 17 July, according to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. Nahla Khalil Najjar, 37, suffered injuries to her chest, it said. PCHR provided a picture of flechettes taken by a fieldworker last week. The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) did not deny using the shells in the conflict... The munitions are not prohibited under international humanitarian law, but according to B'Tselem, 'other rules of humanitarian law render their use in the Gaza Strip illegal.'"


    9) "The tragedy is that Hamas... are stopping civilians leaving from the areas of fighting."
    Whether or not Hamas is indeed "stopping civilians" from leaving "the areas of fighting", where are those Palestinian civilians in Gaza supposed to go? Which part of their "prison camp", to quote David Cameron in 2010, can they legitimately and safely take shelter in, given Israel is bombing houses, schools and mosques on the grounds that they're all allegedly being used by Hamas to hide their rockets? To quote the inimitable Jon Stewart, of the Daily Show: "Evacuate to where? Have you f**king seen Gaza? Israel blocked this border, Egypt blocked this border. What, are they supposed to swim for it?"
    Hear Hear!:hat::congrats:
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    Hamas hides weapons in a UN ran school that was a shelter, knowing that the IDF have technology that identify and target buildings that hide weaponry, and you still defend them?

    I have nothing to say to vile animals like you. :rolleyes:
    Actually, that might not have been HAMAS. It might have been any one of the various outfits that operate inside that blockaded area.

    It is disingenuous for you to try and attribute it to HAMAS when you have no clear evidence...
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Huge? have you been keeping statistical data?

    We all know social media produces nutcases

    What's your views on the resurgence of Hitler's popularity amongst Muslims?

    He was always an ally and hero to 'palestinians' of course
    Yes social media produces nutcases, but what makes Israel even more special is that these nutcases who 'wish death upon Arab children', will soon (if not already) be given a gun as they complete their mandatory IDF service.
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    (Original post by broscience123)
    Yes social media produces nutcases, but what makes Israel even more special is that these nutcases who 'wish death upon Arab children', will soon (if not already) be given a gun as they complete their mandatory IDF service.
    Ah, I see - you've managed to find yet another special angle in which Israel can be criticised above all other nations for actions conducted by all other nations.

    Nice.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Ah, I see - you've managed to find yet another special angle in which Israel can be criticised above all other nations for actions conducted by all other nations.

    Nice.
    Again, why the need to engage in "whataboutery"?

    Defend Israeli actions on it's own merits.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)

    Defend Israeli actions on it's own merits.
    No problem


    'palestinians' using Wafa hospital to fire rpg's

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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    Hamas is not forcing Israel to use aggression and disproportionate force, Israel chose to bomb refugee camps using F16's as well as destroy hospitals. Fully aware that civilian casualties are most likely to occur from bombing places where civilians have taken refuge, it still chose to bomb those places. Without presenting proof that a vast majority of the places attacked have been used by Hamas, the onus is on the Israel. Show us clear evidence.
    You seriously expect Israel to reveal military intelligence every five minutes?

    The IDF's technology finds buildings where weapons are being hidden. The IDF issues warnings telling civilians to get out. Hamas tells civilians to stay where they are. The IDF attacks said buildings. Lo and behold, innocent Palestinians die because they wrongly trust Hamas to protect them.

    The UN confirmed this week that Hamas have been hiding rockets in schools. Or are you going to call the UN a unreliable source?

    http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/r...estinians.html
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    Netanyahu called out Erdogan for supposedly "anti-Semitic" remarks. However, Turkish ministers have condemned attempts to ban works of a Turkish author of Jewish descent.

    Is Turkey really anti-Semitic or is Netanyahu throwing that label around to censor critics of Israel because Erdogan decided to condemn Israel for their aggression against unarmed Palestinians?
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    No problem


    'palestinians' using Wafa hospital to fire rpg's

    Can I have independent verification of this video instead of IDF propaganda?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Can I have independent verification of this video instead of IDF propaganda?
    You can have a ':rolleyes:' like the rest of your posts.

    I'm sure anyone who's had the misfortune to read your posts, knows one of your tactics is to ask for the kind of 'proof' that no one can provide.

    As if there's another recording of this footage taken by Hamas TV.

    Don't waste my time.
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    Most Palestinians in Gaza are fed up of Hamas and want to live and work in Israel:

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07...re-poll-finds/
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    Most Palestinians in Gaza are fed up of Hamas and want to live and work in Israel:

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07...re-poll-finds/
    Mate, as long as they have it in their hearts to eventually destroy Israel, there will be no peace.

    That is the central point. None of the Palestinian internal media talks about 2 states. Even if they do, they often refer to it as the "first step" rather than the last.

    They still harbour ambition to destroy Israel. They think they can wear Israel down. Even on their forums they discuss this tactic to keep launching conflict after conflict.

    I watched a vid of a Hamas guy say that any truce is simply for them to rearm and start again.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    You can have a ':rolleyes:' like the rest of your posts.

    I'm sure anyone who's had the misfortune to read your posts, knows one of your tactics is to ask for the kind of 'proof' that no one can provide.

    As if there's another recording of this footage taken by Hamas TV.

    Don't waste my time.
    Thank you for conceding that your evidence is invalid.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Mate, as long as they have it in their hearts to eventually destroy Israel, there will be no peace.

    That is the central point. None of the Palestinian internal media talks about 2 states. Even if they do, they often refer to it as the "first step" rather than the last.

    They still harbour ambition to destroy Israel. They think they can wear Israel down. Even on their forums they discuss this tactic to keep launching conflict after conflict.

    I watched a vid of a Hamas guy say that any truce is simply for them to rearm and start again.
    What's your opinion on how Israel treats the Palestinians living in the West Bank (which are not ruled by Hamas). I'de especially like to hear how you feel about the Palestinians being treated as sub-human, and your opinion on the expansion of illegal expansion of Settlers on Palestinan land.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    Most Palestinians in Gaza are fed up of Hamas and want to live and work in Israel:

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07...re-poll-finds/
    All polls conducted in Gaza before the 2006 elections and exit polls on election day, disregarding the Israeli dirty tactics, said that Fatah would manage a comfortable victory.

    Imagine their surprise when HAMAS won by a landslide...

    Take a look at the HAMAS ceasefire requests, which of them do you actually disagree with...
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    (Original post by broscience123)
    What's your opinion on how Israel treats the Palestinians living in the West Bank (which are not ruled by Hamas). I'de especially like to hear how you feel about the Palestinians being treated as sub-human, and your opinion on the expansion of illegal expansion of Settlers on Palestinan land.
    You're ok mate. If I wanted to interact with someone that uses the hyperbole you do, I'd go on the Hamas chat rooms.

    Control yourself, or speak to someone else.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    You're ok mate. If I wanted to interact with someone that uses the hyperbole you do, I'd go on the Hamas chat rooms.

    Control yourself, or speak to someone else.
    Typical, expected response, once again dodging the question. One may wonder why on earth you are even on this discussion forum when all you can do is spout recycled hasbara garbage.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    You seriously expect Israel to reveal military intelligence every five minutes?

    The IDF's technology finds buildings where weapons are being hidden. The IDF issues warnings telling civilians to get out. Hamas tells civilians to stay where they are. The IDF attacks said buildings. Lo and behold, innocent Palestinians die because they wrongly trust Hamas to protect them.

    The UN confirmed this week that Hamas have been hiding rockets in schools. Or are you going to call the UN a unreliable source?

    http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/r...estinians.html
    Where can Palestinians go though? If the IDF has such technology and is so kind to warn Palestinians about impending air strikes, why have 80% of casualties been civilians?

    For the record I dont support either side, what both Hamas and Israel do is awful, but it frustrates me when people make out that Israel can do no wrong and that Hamas are the only reason this conflict is going on.
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    (Original post by MattBerry96)
    Where can Palestinians go though? If the IDF has such technology and is so kind to warn Palestinians about impending air strikes, why have 80% of casualties been civilians?
    .
    I'd caution on that 80% figure.

    In the last three confrontations between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah - the death tolls have been readjusted to show more combatants killed than first reported.

    It's part of Hamas' propaganda/

    They know that if 6 months down the line when word gets out of how many Hamas actually died, the media will not give a damn and Israel will still be thought of as having killed 80% civilians.
 
 
 
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