Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
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Maths Tutor
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#2061
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#2061
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
To a certain extent I'd agree with you. The working classes would've been insured with their savings. The problem you have, and this is the big problem is the companies work for them.

Option 1. Employer has enough cash in the bank to pay wages. Bank goes under, they loose their money, so the end result is no wages at the end of the month, No means of payement of suppliers and the whole system falls down.

Option 2. Employer doesn't have enough money in the bank to pay wages so it borrows money on a short term loan basis to meet cash flow requirements. Bank goes under, employer has no means of borrowing money. No wages paid at the end of the month.

No wages = no money being spent in shops, so very quickly society as you and I know it collapses on itself.

You're option, which I think you're angling for is a socialist utopia where everybody works for the state. In an environment like that, you get no investment from companies wishing to employ people unless you do something like pay really low wages such as in China and North Korea. Basically you promote a degree of slave labour. Also, States need to borrow money from banks, so if the banks go under, then the state can't pay it's workers either.


You can bang the drum about Thatcherism all you like. People of our age never really lived throu it so don't care about it that much. Suprisingly the age group you're taking about. 60+ are more anti seperation than anybody else.
Cut out your long philosophy.

The working classes of Scotland AND England would have used their initiative to keep businesses running without billions being creamed off them by parasites.

But as long as Westminster rules, it is OK to subsidise the rich at the expense of the poor, but it is NOT OK to subsidise the poor at the expense of the rich.


The SNP government in Scotland has proved that it is possible to protect the poor by way of universal 'free' prescriptions etc, while at the same time not unduly tax the better off.

What is wrong about the better off also getting 'free' prescriptions or 'free' travel passes which they have helped to subsidise in part? At least the ones who really need them will not suffer the indignity of means testing, which anyway costs more money than it saves?
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MatureStudent36
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#2062
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#2062
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Cut out your long philosophy.

The working classes of Scotland AND England would have used their initiative to keep businesses running without billions being creamed off them by parasites.

But as long as Westminster rules, it is OK to subsidise the rich at the expense of the poor, but it is NOT OK to subsidise the poor at the expense of the rich.


The SNP government in Scotland has proved that it is possible to protect the poor by way of universal 'free' prescriptions etc, while at the same time not unduly tax the better off.

What is wrong about the better off also getting 'free' prescriptions or 'free' travel passes which they have helped to subsidise in part? At least the ones who really need them will not suffer the indignity of means testing, which anyway costs more money than it saves?
Firstly, you've missed out the Welsh and Northern Irish. You're always doing that. That's what gets me thinking that there's a degree of xenophobia in you're beliefs. It's always about the English.

I'm sure had the economy collapsed we'd have sorted something out. Possibly using the ancient Barter System. You know. One bag of coal and a sheep equals a weekend stay in a B& B.

However the problem then comes with buying in goods from abroad as they'd like cash.

So as a net importer of food for example, we'd possibly see a degree of famine until we could see a return of subsistance farming.

Medical supplies that are bought in from abroad wouldn't be supplied.

But yes, we are looking after our poor with free prescriptions.

I've told this story before, but I'll tell it again.


  1. University Tuition Fees

    It's generally acknowledged that Middle class people tend to go off to University whilst working class people tend to go off to college. (Personally I really think we've lost our way with trying to get everybody to University as I don't think we'd be anywhere near the mess we're in had we had a strong vibrant manufacturing base.Fergus, although being able to afford it get free University education, whilst Mac is now struggling foolow the SNPs recent cuts to college education resulting in Mac finding it difficult to learn the skills that will allow him to succeed.

    Conclusion. Mac's taxes are being used to better support Fergus.


    Free Prescriptions.Down South.Free prescriptions are available for:-
    • are 60 or over
    • are under 16
    • are 16-18 and in full-time education
    • are pregnant or have had a baby in the previous 12 months and have a valid maternity exemption certificate (MatEx)
    • have a specified medical condition and have a valid medical exemption certificate (MedEx)
    • have a continuing physical disability that prevents you from going out without help from another person and have a valid MedEx
    • hold a valid war pension exemption certificate and the prescription is for your accepted disability
    • are an NHS inpatient



You are also entitled to free prescriptions if you or your partner (including civil partners) are named on, or are entitled to, an NHS tax credit exemption certificate or a valid HC2 certificate (full help with health costs), or you receive either:

  • Income Support
  • Income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance
  • Income-related Employment and Support Allowance, or
  • Pension Credit Guarantee Credit
  • Universal Credit


http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthc...tioncosts.aspx

So basically, most people who need free prescriptions get free prescriptions.

Now Fergus, although more than capable of paying for a prescription as he doesn't fit into any of the above categories, gets a free prescription to deal with that rather irratating rash he picked up from a less than safe encounter in a nightclub one night.

Conclusion. Mac's taxes are being used to better support Fergus.

Council Tax Freeze.

The council tax freeze just results in a real term cuts in council tax spend as inflation and staff payrises dig into the budget. End result. Both Mac and Fergus will still get their bins emptied, but Mac's working class area which is more reliant on council services such as social housing, social care etc sees less spent on it. Therefore Macs working class area is the one that suffers as it has the heaviest reliance on the diminished services provided.

Conclusion. The more needier of society loose out.

Let us also have a long hard look at the following report relating to child poverty throughout the UK.Amazingly, Scotland is in a better situation than a lot of the area's in the UK although listening to the SNP we are the poorest region in the UK, but Scotland is still far from the best even with a higher spend per capita.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-21511583Suprisngly the North West of England, and the Midlands do a better job relating to dealing with Child Poverty than we do with more money to spend on it as they have lower per capita spending than we do, and having more control with a devolved parliament. I guess the question is where does the money go that can impact on that? I think the answer is on the entitlements.


I find it amazing as I see myself more as Fergus than Mac, so I should be jumping for joy with these free entitlments. But alas, I have a social conscious.
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Maths Tutor
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#2063
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#2063
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Firstly, it wasnt a subsidy of the banks. It was a bailout. i.e. they have to pay the money back. And yes, the WTO and the IMF sanctioned the bailouts as they were aware of the irreperable damage that would've been caused.
The industries that were providing livelihoods to millions could have been 'bailed out' in the same way. Were the The IMF and WTO not aware of the "irreperable damage" being caused to millions?
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MatureStudent36
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#2064
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#2064
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
The industries that were providing livelihoods to millions could have been 'bailed out' in the same way. Were the The IMF and WTO not aware of the "irreperable damage" being caused to millions?
Sadly it wasn't a bail out with those industries, It was a subsidy. They were continueing to loose money, and had been for some time.

They were put up for sale and investors didn't see a long term economic viable option. In some cases such as coal mines they offered to the miners to run as cooperatives, but many took the redundancy money instead.

So yes, long term state support is a subsidy.(Not allowed by WTO)

Short term is a bail out. (Allowed by the WTO)
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Maths Tutor
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#2065
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#2065
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I'm sure had the economy collapsed we'd have sorted something out. Possibly using the ancient Barter System. You know. One bag of coal and a sheep equals a weekend stay in a B& B.

However the problem then comes with buying in goods from abroad as they'd like cash.
The banks collapsing wouldn't have meant the money disappearing. The remaining mutual societies and credit unions, with appropriate support from the central bank, would have immediately taken over the functions of the casino banks.

To add insult to injury, the casino bankers were given big payouts despite bankrupting the banks. Not a single one has been brought before a court. It is only those who steal petty things who are swiftly brought before the courts and severely punished.

The rich had to be protected, and were protected, by Westminster. Eternal shame to the Scottish Labour politicians who betrayed the founders of the Labour party in Scotland.
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#2066
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#2066
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Sadly it wasn't a bail out with those industries, It was a subsidy. They were continueing to loose money, and had been for some time.

They were put up for sale and investors didn't see a long term economic viable option. In some cases such as coal mines they offered to the miners to run as cooperatives, but many took the redundancy money instead.

So yes, long term state support is a subsidy.(Not allowed by WTO)

Short term is a bail out. (Allowed by the WTO)
'Asset stripping' was in fashion among the rich during those days.

Isn't the UK a sovereign state? It could have told the IMF and WTO where to go if it wanted to. Perhaps re-negotiated membership terms and held an IN-OUT referendum.

But it was political dogma to look at money and nothing else - after all there was no such thing as society.
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MatureStudent36
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#2067
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#2067
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
The banks collapsing wouldn't have meant the money disappearing. The remaining mutual societies and credit unions, with appropriate support from the central bank, would have immediately taken over the functions of the casino banks.

To add insult to injury, the casino bankers were given big payouts despite bankrupting the banks. Not a single one has been brought before a court. It is only those who steal petty things who are swiftly brought before the courts and severely punished.

The rich had to be protected, and were protected, by Westminster. Eternal shame to the Scottish Labour politicians who betrayed the founders of the Labour party in Scotland.
Can you please stop doing stuff in bold.

The mutual societies could've stepped in for a very short term, but there's a problem. They have to get there money from somewhere. And do you know what. It's the banks.

I'd agree that if they have broken the law, then bankers should be brought to trial. But that's only if they broke the law. If they were operating within the realms of existing legislation then they couldn't have.

Again though. I'd like to point out that Alex Salmond was advocating an even higher degree of de regulation.

Yes, Bankers are still getting bonuses. But that will be more likely down to contractual obligations on the employement contracts. It'll probably be down to the work that they've been doing. For example, if a banker can reduce the liability of their bank from £100 million, down to £20 million, the nthey've still done a good job, even though they haven't turned a profit.

But remember, that Alex Salmond backed all of this as did the whole of the SNP.

Who knows, they may even be brought to trial if they have been operating illegally. It may be a case of the SFO is building their case slowly but surely so it improves the chance of going to trial.

But I'd still like to know how we would've fared better had we been seperate. The bank losses for RBS were huge and far outweighed are GDP by many times.
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MatureStudent36
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#2068
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#2068
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
'Asset stripping' was in fashion among the rich during those days.

Isn't the UK a sovereign state? It could have told the IMF and WTO where to go if it wanted to. Perhaps re-negotiated membership terms and held an IN-OUT referendum.

But it was political dogma to look at money and nothing else - after all there was no such thing as society.
We could've told teh IMF & WTO to stuff it. But you may want to do some research on it. Everybody is trying to get in it, not leave it. It's becasue the benefits outweigh the disadvnatges. If you're not in teh WTO then you get stuck with huge trade trafiffs, that make youre products even more uncompetive in the market place.

Are you advocating that we become an isolationists country?
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MatureStudent36
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#2069
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#2069
You may want to read this about the EUs anti competition rules aswell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...ompetition_law

You know, the EU that we've been told we'll get in automatically, but been told we won't.
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Maths Tutor
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#2070
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#2070
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Firstly, you've missed out the Welsh and Northern Irish. You're always doing that. That's what gets me thinking that there's a degree of xenophobia in you're beliefs. It's always about the English.
This thread is about ending the union between SCOTLAND and ENGLAND.

It is about ending Westminster rule over Scotland, it is NOT about the English or the Scottish people.

There is no 'Anglophobia' in the pro-Independence camp, but the anti-Independence camp wants to give that false impression.
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MatureStudent36
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#2071
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#2071
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
This thread is about ending the union between SCOTLAND and ENGLAND.

It is about ending Westminster rule over Scotland, it is NOT about the English or the Scottish people.

There is no 'Anglophobia' in the pro-Independence camp, but the anti-Independence camp wants to give that false impression.
You may want to have a chat with you're friends posting on the Scotsman webiste then as there's some quite blatant Anti English Bile coming out of a lot of them.

You're talking about us leaving the UK. The UK is made up of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
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Maths Tutor
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#2072
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#2072
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
We could've told teh IMF & WTO to stuff it. But you may want to do some research on it. Everybody is trying to get in it, not leave it. It's becasue the benefits outweigh the disadvnatges. If you're not in teh WTO then you get stuck with huge trade trafiffs, that make youre products even more uncompetive in the market place.

Are you advocating that we become an isolationists country?
I am not but England under UKIP pressure on the Tories is certainly heading that way.

Oh, and everyone is trying to get into the EU, not leave it, apart from the UK of course, dragging Scotland out as well.

It is just that when it suits Westminster, it will do everything it can to 'opt out'. But Westminster under Thatcherism was and is determined to cut back the advances made by the working classes. It could have a case for saving the industries if it wanted to, but it didn't because it didn't want to.
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MatureStudent36
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#2073
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I am not but England under UKIP pressure on the Tories is certainly heading that way.

Oh, and everyone is trying to get into the EU, not leave it, apart from the UK of course, dragging Scotland out as well.

It is just that when it suits Westminster, it will do everything it can to 'opt out'. But Westminster under Thatcherism was and is determined to cut back the advances made by the working classes. It could have a case for saving the industries if it wanted to, but it didn't because it didn't want to.
You've mentioned this time and time again. The Conservatives have offered a referendum on our membership, as they realise that support for leaving the EU, is even higher than support for the Yes Campaigns view to leave the UK.

As has been pointed out to you time and time again, even David Cameron is not advocating the UK leaving the EU. He's even stated that he'll promote staying in the UK. What he's after is a repatriation of more powers back to the UK.

One of those powers is an easing off of the EU Common Fisheries Policy. Think about that. We'd get more control over our fishing grounds again. A situation that wouldn't be likely unless we were part of a group of 65 million people wanting it in Europe.

You seem to keep banging on about Thatcher. She's dead and hasn't been in power for 21 years.
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Maths Tutor
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#2074
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#2074
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Can you please stop doing stuff in bold.

The mutual societies could've stepped in for a very short term, but there's a problem. They have to get there money from somewhere. And do you know what. It's the banks.
No, it is not from the banks. The money is at the Central Bank. A long term banking solution could have been easily and quickly found by for example simply reviving the Post Office Giro account, and making it available to businesses, while new proper banks were set up.

No point in arguing further with you about this. An unique opportunity was missed to level out the vast gap between the rich and the poor, without a bloody revolution. And to their eternal shame, it was SCOTTISH LABOUR politicians Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling who failed the working classes.
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MatureStudent36
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#2075
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#2075
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
No, it is not from the banks. The money is at the Central Bank. A long term banking solution could have been easily and quickly found by for example simply reviving the Post Office Giro account, and making it available to businesses, while new proper banks were set up.

No point in arguing further with you about this. An unique opportunity was missed to level out the vast gap between the rich and the poor, without a bloody revolution.
And where does the Post Office get it's money from?
Who pays for pensions that people have paid into?

What you're advocating has been done before in relativly recent history in Argentina and Zimbabwe. They never worked.

Please go to your University Library and get the following book out
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corporate-Fi.../dp/0077121155

You only need to read pages 1 to 4 to understand that you're speaking foolsihly.

I don't want to help you out, but you're meant to be spreading the gospel according to St Alex. He knows this argument will be won on economics. And you're doing more damage for your cause than you could ever realise.

You're making my job so easy in highlighting the failures of SNP supporters.
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Maths Tutor
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#2076
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#2076
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You seem to keep banging on about Thatcher. She's dead and hasn't been in power for 21 years.
Thatcherism is very much alive and thriving, destroying the working classes.

What do you think of Scottish Labour's extensive use of PFI to build schools and hospitals in Scotland which has left local authorities struggling to pay the instalments?
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MatureStudent36
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#2077
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#2077
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Thatcherism is very much alive and thriving, destroying the working classes.

What do you think of Scottish Labour's extensive use of PFI to build schools and hospitals in Scotland which has left local authorities struggling to pay the instalments?
Have you been told by you're Handler to stir up feelings against Thatcher?
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Maths Tutor
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#2078
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
And where does the Post Office get it's money from?
So you think all the money is physically hidden inside the banks?

The Post Office has an extensive network and in fact transactions on current accounts held at various banks can be carried out at Post Office counters. The Post Office network could have been very easily turned into a new banking system to service the real economy, not the casino economy.

The point is the deposits of the rich were protected by the bailouts. Much of their deposits would have been wiped out, reducing the gap between the rich and the poor. The basic infrastructure of the banks themselves would not have been destroyed.
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MatureStudent36
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#2079
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
So you think all the money is physically hidden inside the banks?

The Post Office has an extensive network and in fact transactions on current accounts held at various banks can be carried out at Post Office counters. The Post Office network could have been very easily turned into a new banking system to service the real economy, not the casino economy.

The point is the deposits of the rich were protected by the bailouts. Much of their deposits would have been wiped out, reducing the gap between the rich and the poor. The basic infrastructure of the banks themselves would not have been destroyed.

Please go away and do some basic research on this. My 8 year old nephew has a better grasp of the economy than you do.
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MatureStudent36
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#2080
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#2080
For those of you like me who are worried at the SNPs policy of seperation. Please feel free to read through Maths Tutors comments for a better understanding of our economy should we vote Yes next September. Start storing food and precious metals.
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