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The Republic of Ireland shoud re-join the Union Watch

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    (Original post by engrishdegree)
    theres no point in wales being a sovereign state
    I don't think there's any point in England or Scotland being sovereign states either.
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    (Original post by Peace'n'loveman)
    As someone of Irish Catholic descent I would whole-heartedly welcome Eire becoming part of the Union again. Obviously the idea of coercion is a non-starter,as it was coercion that led to the desire for independence anyway. I can't really see Eire as a seperate country when probably more people of Irish descent live in the uk than in Eire itself. I happen to believe in the union of the Irish,English,Scottish,and Welsh peoples ,and believe that we are stronger together than apart.
    Eire's affinity for the EU for many years shows that sovereignty was never the central issue in wanting independence from the uk.As someone said when Eire signed the new EU constitution ' We spent 400 years fighting for independence ,only to give it away in a second.
    No the main reason why eire would naturally want independence from the uk was simply because they were not treated with equanimity within it. So we would need a new type of constitution that would give equanimity between all four countries.
    Lets not forget that some of the driving force behind eire's desire for seperation was due to the Catholic church's loathing of protestant england.This can't hold as much sway now because the church is relatively discredited in eire now ,and people are generally more secular anyway.Moreover under Labour here there were some historic constitutional changes which allow Catholics more equanimity at the heart of the establishment .
    The ideas of oppression are complicated by the fact that the protestant community within eire were always under the cosh. I believe that at the time of partition eire was 30 per cent protestant ,but within a generation that had fallen to 9 per cent. Lets not forget that the playing of garrison games eg soccer,rugby,cricket, were looked down upon in eire,and only just allowed recently at the national stadium.Lets not forget that many people who were regarded as 'different' in eire eg gays etc,had to come to london to find refuge.Lets not forget that scotland was once a colony of ireland.
    I believe that the history of the irish people's is so entwined with the rest of the british people that i can't see us as seperate peoples where i definitely see the french and german as seperate.
    People may criticize partition ,but in countries like sri lanka ,the tamils curse the british for not creating partition at the time of independence.
    I think that recent economic events have shown that it is difficult for small countries to survive alone.
    I believe in the british and irish people's being as one,but i also rue the loosening of ties between ourselves and australia,new zealand,and canada.Somewhere along the line the british people lost their self-belief.The idea that people who shed their blood for the freeedom of europe now have to queue up as aliens when they come here,whereas romanians etc have freedom of access,is one of the great tragedies in history.
    So come on eire ,come back to the uk. Its that or having jerry adams as your next prime minister.
    In pure economic terms we are already close to eire because it is virtually our biggest trading partner.We export more to eire than we do to germany.
    I would think your parents are very proud of the way they have reared you lol
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    (Original post by in_vogue)
    Ireland would rather be ''independent'' - but keep ****ing up and then getting bailed out by us. Effectively, their independence is only a word, not a state.
    We rely so heavily on Ireland its pathetic! Most of our exports are bound for the shore of Eire!!!!! We are not doing the Irish a favour by lending them a few billion (with alot alot of interest) we are looking out for our own interests!

    The notion that Ireland would ever want to be part of the union is absurd, anyone thinking that is not living on planet earth!!! And if there was to be something like us taking them under our rule again, I think the extremists we are dealing with now would look very innocent in comparison to the nutty Irish terrorists! Firstly we would loose our main alley in the USA and secondly there would probably be a civil war in England as 1 in 4 of our population claim to be of irish decent !!!
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    (Original post by Tubby Isaacs)
    I like the American presidential system, in some ways. There's a balance of powers that we don't have here. As you say, the monarchy doesn't do much now, but the royal powers have just gone to the prime minister and the largest party in the Commons- what Lord Hailsham called "elective dictatorship".


    A president with some powers could be part of a proper rebalancing. It would need a lot of discussion first, but I don't see anyone much in politics even ask questions about this. Including people who always talk about the Constitution with regards to the EU.
    Lord Hailsham can call it what he wants, but there is no way you can justly call what we have a 'dictatorship'. The problem with a presidential system is that the president is basically an 'elected king', a person who centralises all state powers and basically do whatever they want.

    Now I'm sure it probably appears as if this is what we have in the British political system, but there are many more checks than first appears. I'll admit though, there is room for improvement, but I just don't think presidential systems are any good.
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    (Original post by in_vogue)
    Ireland would rather be ''independent'' - but keep ****ing up and then getting bailed out by us. Effectively, their independence is only a word, not a state.

    'Keep' ****ing up? The Irish government ****ed it up by paying out several billion to keep stupid corrupt banks afloat that the exchequer could not sustain. Does the Fianna Fáil party equate to the whole of Ireland now? Was Ireland the ONLY country to be affected by other recessions? Is Ireland the only country in massive debt now, or even the only one to be bailed out? Is the UK completely fine, no debt, recession over? In fact, that decision to triple college fees stands its ground amongst the punitive measures enacted here, and is a lot worse than our own hike in college registration fees. Also, Ireland is not being bailed out by the UK. The UK has contributed towards the bailout fund, it is not the sole contributor. Ireland did not ask for a bailout from anyone, Ireland did not ask for a contribution from the UK. In fact, the government denied it was happening at all, which is another matter. Not only that, but why did the UK contribute? It contributed because if Ireland went, the UK would suffer massively, way worse than the money given by them as part of the bailout. It is not pure generosity for those poor ****ers across the water. Not condemning the motives behind the contribution, perfectly valid, but it should be recognised what the motivations are.

    Also, careerchange, I would not call that reliance pathetic. Why wouldn't two island nations beside each other, geographically seperate from the European landmass have strong trade links? It stands to reason.

    Not all presidential systems control central state power. Ireland itself has a president, but she's basically the same as the queen. I'm not even sure if she opens the Dáil? She's a figurehead, basically. We do have an iron-clad constitution though, and a Taoiseach (Prime Minster) and government. I think ours is a fairly good set-up (current government aside, but it has been dissolved. Roll on General Election on the 25th!
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    Not all presidential systems control central state power. Ireland itself has a president, but she's basically the same as the queen. I'm not even sure if she opens the Dáil? She's a figurehead, basically. We do have an iron-clad constitution though, and a Taoiseach (Prime Minster) and government. I think ours is a fairly good set-up (current government aside, but it has been dissolved. Roll on General Election on the 25th!
    What are the alternatives though? Kenny is a complete and utter spoofer who is terrified of Vincent Browne (I would rather have Cowan in charge), and I don't like all this crap from Labour about possibly re-negotiating the IMF deal (are they really that delusional?). The prospect of Joan Burton becoming getting the finance job is vomit-inducing as well (though Rabitte would be alright).

    Personally I'll be giving my number one to Fianna Fail simply on the grounds that my local TD is excellent, knowledgeable, has done some good work for the local communities and deserves it regardless of how badly his party have mismanaged the economy.
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    (Original post by Teofilo)
    What are the alternatives though? Kenny is a complete and utter spoofer who is terrified of Vincent Browne (I would rather have Cowan in charge), and I don't like all this crap from Labour about possibly re-negotiating the IMF deal (are they really that delusional?). The prospect of Joan Burton becoming getting the finance job is vomit-inducing as well (though Rabitte would be alright).

    Personally I'll be giving my number one to Fianna Fail simply on the grounds that my local TD is excellent, knowledgeable, has done some good work for the local communities and deserves it regardless of how badly his party have mismanaged the economy.

    The best TD's in my constituency are Labour and Independent respectively, they'll be getting mine. Not sure about Fine Gael, I'd lean more towards Labour, but not a fan of some of their policies..one of my FF TD's is very good, I'll put him in somewhere, the other is awful. The Sinn Féin one has no profile, but is still doing well on the boards.ie GE Poll....sigh. The outcome is pretty much going to be a FG Labour coalition though isn't it, maybe with Independents depending on seats. I REALLY don't want Kenny as Taoiseach though, he'd be more suited to a role like Finance of Education or something..
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    Not all presidential systems control central state power. Ireland itself has a president, but she's basically the same as the queen. I'm not even sure if she opens the Dáil? She's a figurehead, basically.
    She doesn't. The last person to open a Dail was the Governor General back in the '20s. The President can, under the Constitution, address the Oireachtas on issues of national importance - which has happened on only a handful of occasions.

    In practice, the President lacks the involvement in the political and ceremonial sphere of Irish life that the Queen has in Britain, but deeper than that she actually has less authority overall: the Queen, for example, is the sole executive authority in the UK - in Ireland, that power is given to the Government; in theory the Queen retains the power to refuse assent to Bills, the Irish president only has the power to refer a bill to the Supreme Court, then must sign it if it is lawful.

    Ireland has cut the position of head of state down almost to the bone. There are very few powers at all - and none of them significant - that could realistically be removed from the President.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    She doesn't. The last person to open a Dail was the Governor General back in the '20s. The President can, under the Constitution, address the Oireachtas on issues of national importance - which has happened on only a handful of occasions.

    In practice, the President lacks the involvement in the political and ceremonial sphere of Irish life that the Queen has in Britain, but deeper than that she actually has less authority overall: the Queen, for example, is the sole executive authority in the UK - in Ireland, that power is given to the Government; in theory the Queen retains the power to refuse assent to Bills, the Irish president only has the power to refer a bill to the Supreme Court, then must sign it if it is lawful.

    Ireland has cut the position of head of state down almost to the bone. There are very few powers at all - and none of them significant - that could realistically be removed from the President.

    Didn't think she did, she's normally shown congratulating athletes, shaking hands with players before a match, and offending the North. DeV though was an actual voice of the state, he at least seemed to have power. I do think a constitution is important, much moreso than a figurehead president/monarch- why does the monarchy mean the UK doesn't have one, can you have both? If anything, the position of the monarchy could be detailed and secured by it.
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    I don't think there's any point in England or Scotland being sovereign states either.
    before devolution, I would agree with you. but the UK in it's current state is unsustainable and unbalanced. millions of people in england with no government, while a few million in wales and in Scotland have got their own first minister
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    (Original post by engrishdegree)
    before devolution, I would agree with you. but the UK in it's current state is unsustainable and unbalanced. millions of people in england with no government, while a few million in wales and in Scotland have got their own first minister
    First off, does the lack of a First Minister for England really matter? I certainly don't think it does so long as local authorities keep good links with central government and are openminded when it comes to co-operating on issues such as regional development.

    Keep in mind that, since 1707 and intensifying in the 19th century, Scotland (and, indeed, Ireland) have always been governed somewhat differently. I don't think people in England particularly noticed when virtually all of what is currently devolved was essentially being exercised by diktat from the Scottish Office in Dover House.

    I expect the most straightforward solution would be to divide England, just not in the rejected form of regionalism. I'd opt for a Northern Assembly and Southern Assembly to join the Greater London Assembly in managing local affairs. Still, the question which arises to my mind is 'why?' - I don't think devolution has been particularly great in Scotland and Wales, nor have the people of England presented an active campaign for change as the people of Scotland did from the 1940s onwards. In Scotland, a 2 million strong petition was lodged in support of devolution in 1950 - a place with a population of just over 5 million; there was then tireless campaigns by pro-devolution groups, a sort of won-sort of lost referendum in 1979, more campaigning and finally a huge effort in consensus building between political parties and social groups before it was finally delivered. Things like devolution aren't just handed to you... unless you're Welsh, I suppose.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    I expect the most straightforward solution would be to divide England, just not in the rejected form of regionalism. I'd opt for a Northern Assembly and Southern Assembly to join the Greater London Assembly in managing local affairs. Still, the question which arises to my mind is 'why?' - I don't think devolution has been particularly great in Scotland and Wales, nor have the people of England presented an active campaign for change as the people of Scotland did from the 1940s onwards. In Scotland, a 2 million strong petition was lodged in support of devolution in 1950 - a place with a population of just over 5 million; there was then tireless campaigns by pro-devolution groups, a sort of won-sort of lost referendum in 1979, more campaigning and finally a huge effort in consensus building between political parties and social groups before it was finally delivered. Things like devolution aren't just handed to you... unless you're Welsh, I suppose.

    Dividing England is the only option, but it was already rejected in 2004. England does need devolution because it would be impossible to take the Welsh assembley or the Scottish government back now. so that leaves either three options, millions of people in England carry on being ruled unfairly from London, Scotland break away and becomes sovereign or like you rightly said, they carve England up.


    But it can't stay as it is because the north of England has 15,000,000 people, while scotland is sitting pretty with free uni, and other benefits
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    (Original post by engrishdegree)
    Dividing England is the only option, but it was already rejected in 2004.
    One very specific form of poorly conceived, essentially powerless, bureaucratic and unsupported form of dividing England was rejected in one small part of the country. It was a 1960s hangover from the Redcliffe–Maud Report, rather than a seriously considered proposal in light of the changes to the British constitution since that time.

    so that leaves either three options, millions of people in England carry on being ruled unfairly from London
    I don't see it as remotely unfair. Devolution was the settled will of the people of Scotland. Devolution has never been the settled will of the people of England.

    But it can't stay as it is because the north of England has 15,000,000 people, while scotland is sitting pretty with free uni, and other benefits
    You do appreciate that government authority is entirely different from central government funding? Devolved Scottish functions still receive funding on the same basis that the Scottish Office did, based on a formula which accounts for spending increases and cuts in England. Getting devolution does not somehow bring an extra pot of cash, nor I suspect would England-wide devolution particularly change the priorities of government in England.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    In practice, the President lacks the involvement in the political and ceremonial sphere of Irish life that the Queen has in Britain, but deeper than that she actually has less authority overall: the Queen, for example, is the sole executive authority in the UK - in Ireland, that power is given to the Government; in theory the Queen retains the power to refuse assent to Bills, the Irish president only has the power to refer a bill to the Supreme Court, then must sign it if it is lawful.
    In fairness, because of your Constitution, the Queen has no power either. In theory is all well and good, but in practice it would be against the constitution for her to use those powers, as her predecessors never used them. She, legally, has as little power as the Irish President.
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    The best TD's in my constituency are Labour and Independent respectively, they'll be getting mine. Not sure about Fine Gael, I'd lean more towards Labour, but not a fan of some of their policies..one of my FF TD's is very good, I'll put him in somewhere, the other is awful. The Sinn Féin one has no profile, but is still doing well on the boards.ie GE Poll....sigh. The outcome is pretty much going to be a FG Labour coalition though isn't it, maybe with Independents depending on seats. I REALLY don't want Kenny as Taoiseach though, he'd be more suited to a role like Finance of Education or something..
    I always considered myself Labour if anything (I liked Rabitte as leader), but everything I see of them these days just suggests a hysterical criticism of government policies without any real concrete initiatives. This whole notion they are peddling of a re-negotiation of the bailout is absolute rubbish, and is merely covering the fact they don't seem to have a plan to plug the hole in the deficit. As much as Fianna Fail have been talking ****e about 'global recessions' etc to cover their absolute mismanagement, Labour are basically codding people with talk of softening the IMF deal. I know relatively about the Labour candidate in my area either; not sure where I would go for second preference actually

    The campaign doesn't seem to have really kicked off yet anyway; I think most people would welcome a debate about how to get public finances back on track, but neither FG or Labour seem to have the bottle for it yet. Symptomatic of the total and utter lack of leadership in Irish politics these days.

    And I just realised I won't be home on election day. **** the whole thing so...
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    (Original post by Teofilo)
    I always considered myself Labour if anything (I liked Rabitte as leader), but everything I see of them these days just suggests a hysterical criticism of government policies without any real concrete initiatives. This whole notion they are peddling of a re-negotiation of the bailout is absolute rubbish, and is merely covering the fact they don't seem to have a plan to plug the hole in the deficit. As much as Fianna Fail have been talking ****e about 'global recessions' etc to cover their absolute mismanagement, Labour are basically codding people with talk of softening the IMF deal. I know relatively about the Labour candidate in my area either; not sure where I would go for second preference actually

    The campaign doesn't seem to have really kicked off yet anyway; I think most people would welcome a debate about how to get public finances back on track, but neither FG or Labour seem to have the bottle for it yet. Symptomatic of the total and utter lack of leadership in Irish politics these days.

    And I just realised I won't be home on election day. **** the whole thing so...

    Between a rock and a hard place really, both Fine Gael and Labour have major flaws. I find Fine Gael to be an arsey pretentious party not much different in outlook to FF, and they have acted and may still be acting (don't have time to really keep track of campaigns these days) as if they can implement magical policies like a free healthcare system- with WHAT money. They have announced they want to scrap Irish being compulsory up until the Leaving Cert- what a load of crap. It needs to be reformed, not pulled, and the main group who would vote for that don't have the vote. As for Kenny, he's an able minister but he's an embarrassment as a leader- too scared to face Vincent Browne! I would prefer Gilmore but yeah don't like some of Labour's policies. Delusion appears to be common! Seems to be an epidemic of weak leadership/policies amongst all parties- Míchéal Martin is an extremely able leader, too bad he's in FF. Adams- delusional, but Sinn Féin will get more seats than FF. And they have the greatest orator, Pearse Doherty. Policies show not a whole lot of understanding of the economy though. Don't think either of the two stand much chance of power, and Greens are as good as dead. It's all about FG/Lab, I can only hope Kenny won't be Taoiseach.

    Damn, are you too late to apply for postal vote? It was the last day today to get on the register- there were stands in college, but not sure about postal vote.
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    (Original post by D.R.E)
    Lord Hailsham can call it what he wants, but there is no way you can justly call what we have a 'dictatorship'. The problem with a presidential system is that the president is basically an 'elected king', a person who centralises all state powers and basically do whatever they want.

    Now I'm sure it probably appears as if this is what we have in the British political system, but there are many more checks than first appears. I'll admit though, there is room for improvement, but I just don't think presidential systems are any good.
    The president in France might be described as an elected king, but not in most developed democracies. The president of the US certainly isn't- most of the stuff he gets elected on he doesn't have any direct power over.

    The elected king in Britain is the Prime Minister (though not even directly elected). You could certainly keep the constitutional monarchy as it is, not the end of the world by any means, and reform the PMs powers. But I'd do that including presidential elections as part of the mix. I don't think balances are adequate now.
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    (Original post by Tubby Isaacs)
    The president in France might be described as an elected king, but not in most developed democracies. The president of the US certainly isn't- most of the stuff he gets elected on he doesn't have any direct power over.
    Funny you should say that because isn't the President of France also technically an elected prince? The president of France is also a co-prince of Andorra, even though he's voted into power by France and not Andorra.
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    Between a rock and a hard place really, both Fine Gael and Labour have major flaws. I find Fine Gael to be an arsey pretentious party not much different in outlook to FF, and they have acted and may still be acting (don't have time to really keep track of campaigns these days) as if they can implement magical policies like a free healthcare system- with WHAT money. They have announced they want to scrap Irish being compulsory up until the Leaving Cert- what a load of crap. It needs to be reformed, not pulled, and the main group who would vote for that don't have the vote. As for Kenny, he's an able minister but he's an embarrassment as a leader- too scared to face Vincent Browne! I would prefer Gilmore but yeah don't like some of Labour's policies. Delusion appears to be common! Seems to be an epidemic of weak leadership/policies amongst all parties- Míchéal Martin is an extremely able leader, too bad he's in FF. Adams- delusional, but Sinn Féin will get more seats than FF. And they have the greatest orator, Pearse Doherty. Policies show not a whole lot of understanding of the economy though. Don't think either of the two stand much chance of power, and Greens are as good as dead. It's all about FG/Lab, I can only hope Kenny won't be Taoiseach.

    Damn, are you too late to apply for postal vote? It was the last day today to get on the register- there were stands in college, but not sure about postal vote.
    I don't think Sinn Fein will do as well as people are fearing to be honest. They have nothing to offer but rhetoric and delusional notions that everything can just carry on as normal if the bailout is shifted. Think that'll be seen through pretty easily. I think Kenny is pretty much nailed on to be Taoiseach btw; was reading there the other day that FG are nearly on target to form a government on their own. What is the story with the debates anyway? Is the TV3 one going ahead at all? I presume RTE will do a five way one which should suit Kenny, but the only one I would have any interest in watching is one with Vincent Browne front and centre...

    Apparently my sister said she enquired for me and I was on the register already from the local elections so I can apply for a postal ballot in the next week or something. Happy days....
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    (Original post by Teofilo)
    I don't think Sinn Fein will do as well as people are fearing to be honest. They have nothing to offer but rhetoric and delusional notions that everything can just carry on as normal if the bailout is shifted. Think that'll be seen through pretty easily. I think Kenny is pretty much nailed on to be Taoiseach btw; was reading there the other day that FG are nearly on target to form a government on their own. What is the story with the debates anyway? Is the TV3 one going ahead at all? I presume RTE will do a five way one which should suit Kenny, but the only one I would have any interest in watching is one with Vincent Browne front and centre...

    Apparently my sister said she enquired for me and I was on the register already from the local elections so I can apply for a postal ballot in the next week or something. Happy days....

    Yes he pretty much is but wasn't that long ago his leadership was challenged, could well happen again when the stakes are this high. Sinn Féin have more support than FF and will gain seats, but no I don't think they'll be in any position of helping to form a government. http://www.boards.ie/vote/ This is an interesting link, 9000 votes and has votes for each constituency (based on 1st pref currently). Now obviously polls shouldn't be taken at face value but boards is pretty much a normal unbiased community, I would think it's fairly accurate and it's bang on for my constituency. Labour are not too far behind Fine Gael there, both will probably gain a seat each in most constituencies, if not more.

    Vincent Browne is good at getting answers and showing up weaknesses but I think he's a bit too angry, tends to shout people down and doesn't let people talk or finish speaking sometimes. Wouldn't be a fan of Pat Kenny, plank, or Miriam O'Callaghan, walkover, doing them either. Somebody forthright but not angry! I'm not sure what debates are going ahead. Really though if Kenny can't face Browne what good is he as a leader? Dreading him with the queen when she visits this May.
 
 
 
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