Do you think we should abolish private schools? Watch

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nulli tertius
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(Original post by btuck812)
These don't give you an edge over everyone else in the future. As long as you're happy and not starving, none of these things matter in the long run. Schools, however, are the most important thing that decides your future.
Ultimately money buys status, location, position. You cannot single out education. Wealth and income determine where people live, the activities in which they they participate and the connections they make. One cannot single out education as being uniquely different from all the other advantages money brings.
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btuck812
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Ultimately money buys status, location, position. You cannot single out education. Wealth and income determine where people live, the activities in which they they participate and the connections they make. One cannot single out education as being uniquely different from all the other advantages money brings.
Education brings the biggest advantages. Your daddy's money won't buy you a high income unless he owns a company and is willing to pay you lots. Going to a good school enables you to get a better job and that is, in the end, the biggest factor in someone's success.
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by Kimina)
The highest ranking private schools in the country have admissions test which, if are not the grammar school 11+ are as difficult as and they are incredibly competitive to get into due to international competition (if boarding schools) and reputation. So getting into a good private school is not just dependent on having rich parents. The intelligence of child also comes into play.
Yes but you're talking about a specific minority of private schools. Rich parents of dumb children have ways of getting around these obstacles (such as private coaching, for example). Either way, having rich parents is the key to academic success, because even if you don't pass those difficult tests you'll be chucked into an expensive school regardless...
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ParetoOptimum
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
Yes but you're talking about a specific minority of private schools. Rich parents of dumb children have ways of getting around these obstacles (such as private coaching, for example). Either way, having rich parents is the key to academic success, because even if you don't pass those difficult tests you'll be chucked into an expensive school regardless...
And here I was thinking intelligence and dedication are the key factors to academic success :rolleyes: How silly of me!


Seriously though, you have a rather large chip on your shoulder.
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by btuck812)
In an ideal world, yes. They act directly against the meritocratic ideals of our country. But that is not the biggest inequality in the system - there is a bigger gap between the amazing schools in good areas and crappy schools in bad areas. This means that our society decides how good a school you go to based on where your parents choose to live. There is no logic in that, and private schools actually alleviate this by giving people in bad areas the chance of going to a good school. So instead of abolishing private schools, in bad areas we should bring back grammar schools for the top 40% as it has been shown that putting the 10-30% in with the top 10% increases their performance, and also have military schools for troublesome kids who are unlikely to ever get jobs so they have a guaranteed place in the army and therefore can't complain no one wants to employ them. This would hopefully raise standards of schools in bad areas and give the clever kids a good chance at getting an equal education to those who live in better areas or go to private schools. And as a byproduct, it also might get rid of a load of private schools that aren't needed any more.
I kind of agree with you but what are the chances of someone from a bad area being able to afford private schooling? And what are the chances of that child being able to pass the test required for a scholarship? How difficult are these tests, because it sounds to me like you need to be a little Einstein to pass them! And what are the chances his/her parents will allow this, or even know it's an option? And aren't most private schools located in far-away affluent areas anyway? It's not outside the realms of possibility but a lot of an awful lot of stress and sacrifice seems to be involved at the probable expense of the parent's money, and of the child's time (of commuting there)!
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by ParetoOptimum)
And here I was thinking intelligence and dedication are the key factors to academic success :rolleyes: How silly of me!


Seriously though, you have a rather large chip on your shoulder.
Someone has to say these things. I may have a chip on my shoulder, yes, but unlike many zombified young people today who only care about their iPhones and free WiFi, instead of being an apolitical couch potato, at least I actually have an opinion and some capability to rebel against something that's completely old-fashioned and psychologically demoralising to people who aren't rich, or non-rich idiots who are susceptible to being brainwashed by UKIP, or those who are simply too gutless to admit their ugly left-wing opinions because the consensus among TSR users is largely the opposite because presumably most of you were raised by affluent parents with the same mentality, unless you're just trying to be controversial for the sake of it (and failing miserably, because having a conservative mindset is not cool). At least I don't make pathetic counter arguments like 'yeah but the randomness of birth is unfair' to defend the existence of private schools when nobody else is willing to say 'yes but that's not the point; they shouldn't be an option in the first place', or 'in France the attitude is the opposite; people actually look down on you if you're privately educated and assume you're a bit special', or 'don't you think it's odd how Finland's education is now one of the best in the world after they got rid of its private schools, which may have hurt a few rich people, but more crucially made its education as a whole better and fairer?'
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btuck812
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
I kind of agree with you but what are the chances of someone from a bad area being able to afford private schooling? And what are the chances of that child being able to pass the test required for a scholarship? How difficult are these tests, because it sounds to me like you need to be a little Einstein to pass them! And what are the chances his/her parents will allow this, or even know it's an option? And aren't most private schools are located in far-away affluent areas anyway? It's not outside the realms of possibility but a lot of an awful lot of sacrifice seems to be involved at the probable expense of the parent's money, and of the child's time (of commuting there)!
I don't know about other areas, but in my closest town the schools are terrible, and there is a fairly large rich community and the rest are pretty poor If they can't get kids into the good school in a village, they get to send them to a private school. And the private schools give out lots of scholarships for clever poor kids. Rather ironically, they can be used to benefit social mobility. But of course, not most of the time. But I go to a state school that is just as good as some of the private schools, let down of course by the larger numbers of unintelligent pupils. I got into this school by living in the catchment, where house prices are upped by £20k because of being a good school catchment.
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Sheldor
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(Original post by btuck812)
These don't give you an edge over everyone else in the future. As long as you're happy and not starving, none of these things matter in the long run. Schools, however, are the most important thing that decides your future.
But money could also buy parents a house in the catchment area of a good school, stopping poorer pupils getting in.

(Original post by JamesTheCool)
I kind of agree with you but what are the chances of someone from a bad area being able to afford private schooling? And what are the chances of that child being able to pass the test required for a scholarship? How difficult are these tests, because it sounds to me like you need to be a little Einstein to pass them! And what are the chances his/her parents will allow this, or even know it's an option? And aren't most private schools are located in far-away affluent areas anyway? It's not outside the realms of possibility but a lot of an awful lot of sacrifice seems to be involved at the probable expense of the parent's money, and of the child's time (of commuting there)!
In my local area, the private schools give out massive bursaries which incorporate all costs. (including the school transport as we have special buses) Two are in fairly deprived areas but near areas of wealth. (one of these is near a road famous for being home to many crazily rich people).

As for finding out about the bursaries, any parent who is worried about their child's education who has internet access can do some googling

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Flobie
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
Yes but you're talking about a specific minority of private schools. Rich parents of dumb children have ways of getting around these obstacles (such as private coaching, for example). Either way, having rich parents is the key to academic success, because even if you don't pass those difficult tests you'll be chucked into an expensive school regardless...
Ok so I kinda agree and I kinda don't. Yes, there are ways rich people can try and get around it. There are some people in my year at school who shouldn't be there, but despite being at a really good independent school they don't do well.
I know a large number of people at school who get low grades consistently, yet I know people fro state schools who get straight As.
I got 7A*s 4As at GCSE, which is good, but my friend, who went to a rough state school, got 10 A*s. If we both applied to oxford she would've gotten in rather than me :') so yeah, money can get you into a good school, but it can't buy intelligence or determination


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seaholme
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State schools with really good teachers and results have people paying to move into the catchment area anyway. People pay to get something better, whether it's state or private.

Abolishing one or the other isn't going to solve the problem which to go dangerously off in another direction is in my opinion due to lack of streaming of people by ability and aspirations. Private schools are partly good because they are selective. The most successful state schools often have entrance exams and selection criteria.

Personally I think we ought to have a system more like what the Germans have where you have streams. Not everybody wants to be academic and rather than sticking all kids through the same system to the detriment of a lot of them, I have a theory that if state schools just streamed children into those who are more academic, those who are more likely to go onto practical things and so on then there's be a lot less disruption and everybody would enjoy school more because it would be more appropriate for them. A bit like the old grammar school system or whatever. Loads of German kids do the apprenticeship type version of school instead of the Abitur and get excellent jobs in manufacturing, business and so on - because that's where their skills and interests were and they've had the training to be successful in that field.
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by seaholme)
Personally I think we ought to have a system more like what the Germans have where you have streams. Not everybody wants to be academic and rather than sticking all kids through the same system to the detriment of a lot of them, I have a theory that if state schools just streamed children into those who are more academic, those who are more likely to go onto practical things and so on then there's be a lot less disruption and everybody would enjoy school more because it would be more appropriate for them. A bit like the old grammar school system or whatever. Loads of German kids do the apprenticeship type version of school instead of the Abitur and get excellent jobs in manufacturing, business and so on - because that's where their skills and interests were and they've had the training to be successful in that field.
I completely agree. I think the Germans have nailed what an education system is supposed to be, although I doubt that a country as proud as Britain will ever take much note.

But there should be some sort of academic mobility so that kids are able to move up and down classes depending on performance. We only had streaming for Maths. I was in the second-bottom Maths set when I started secondary school because my Year 6 SATs weren't great. We were known as 'the stupid class'. It was really frustrating because we weren't even taught the high-level criteria and we were forced to sit either a 'foundation' or 'intermediate' paper for our Year 9 SATs. As this was the point when I started giving a crap about my education and realised the impact it would have on my future, I studied as hard as I could for the intermediate paper. I did exceptionally well and was moved up to the second top set. I studied hard for my Maths GCSE and was 1 in 15 out of 300+ people in my year who achieved an A* (despite not being in the top set).

That's why I'm in favour of streaming as opposed to state and grammar division because people can change. Moving classes involves far less stress and hassle than moving schools!
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Kimina
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
Yes but you're talking about a specific minority of private schools. Rich parents of dumb children have ways of getting around these obstacles (such as private coaching, for example). Either way, having rich parents is the key to academic success, because even if you don't pass those difficult tests you'll be chucked into an expensive school regardless...
Not at the school I went to. It was so competitive that being wealthy was not enough to get in. Private tuition would still occur if state schools were abolished... resulting in the wealthy getting better grades regardless or being more likely to get into top grammar schools
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Ben_K
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I feel it is unnecessary to create a divide in society amongst different people based on wealth/class. I do however have no preference as to whether or not private schools are abolished or not... It's up to different people how they choose to live their own lives, however I do feel society would possibly benefit from private schools being abolished.
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sarcastic-sal
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Before I state my opinion, I'd like to point out that I'm state-educated, but am middle-class: by no means do my parents have to scrape together money to afford things such as holidays abroad, although with 3 kids they couldn't afford £10k+ a year for private education. By definition on this thread then, I would be 'lowere-middle class.'
One of my friends goes to a private school. There are only two which are in my area, and he attends the one which has better academic results. He often complains that the people at his school aren't particularly nice people: he finds some of them snobbish and he has told me a large proportion of them think that state kids are chavs. These people are those which will make Russell Group universities uncomfortable for the state-educated if they continue with their snobbish airs. Such is the problem I have with private schools: not that they can give an unfair advantage (of which I will discuss) but that they may develop a, possibly already present, sense of self-importance in a child who has realised that they are quite privileged. Of course this is not present in every private school student, but rarely will you see a state-educated child snobbish about their background.
On to the topic of unfair advantages, and back to my privately-educated friend. We are both in Year 12, and studying similar subjects. At GCSE, he achieved the highest grades in his year - 12A*s. I, as the state-educated peasant, achieved only 6A*s and 7As. When we first met I had the impression that we were of similar academic ability, but it would be inevitable that his grades would be higher than mine due to his schooling. For the sake of moving up 1 grade in 6 subjects is it really worth spending five years worth of private school fees? Sixth form and A-Levels may be different, as reduced class sizes will have more impact: in Chemistry, a subject both I and my friend take, my class size is 20 whereas his is 5. As quite a complex subject (but one fortunately I grasp most of the concepts of) I can imagine this is somewhere where the divide starts to show.
Private schools can not, and will not, be abolished overnight. I can understand why parents would send their child to one, even if the difference academically is not that great. What would serve to lessen the divide between state and private would be an increased focus on improving all areas of state education, but particularly in sixth forms. If state sixth forms offered smaller class sizes and improved in terms of not only teaching subjects but teaching students how to study then I believe they would become more attractive to those who have been privately educated up to the age of 16 or those considering to move to private education post-16. The problem lies not with the fact that private schools exist, but that they are far far better than state schools.
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laurenchelseafc
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Money doesn't equate to intelligence. I know people who have been to private schools, and parents who have sent their children there. In alot of cases, it wasn't because the education was any better...but it was because they could then brag that they went to private school. The children themselves weren't intelligent beyond belief...This shows that no amount of money can buy intelligence.

And as a sidenote, my School is a state school and achieves better OFSTED reports, GCSE/A Level results than every other educational establishment in the county, behind Eton College (I live in the royal borough).
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by Kimina)
Not at the school I went to. It was so competitive that being wealthy was not enough to get in. Private tuition would still occur if state schools were abolished... resulting in the wealthy getting better grades regardless or being more likely to get into top grammar schools
So being wealthy was still a requirement?

True, but I reckon the wealthy would also be keener on improving state schools if private schools were abolished.
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DaveSmith99
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No, how will that help anyone? We need to make state schools as good, if not better than public schools.
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by sarcastic-sal)
One of my friends goes to a private school. There are only two which are in my area, and he attends the one which has better academic results. He often complains that the people at his school aren't particularly nice people: he finds some of them snobbish and he has told me a large proportion of them think that state kids are chavs. These people are those which will make Russell Group universities uncomfortable for the state-educated if they continue with their snobbish airs. Such is the problem I have with private schools: not that they can give an unfair advantage (of which I will discuss) but that they may develop a, possibly already present, sense of self-importance in a child who has realised that they are quite privileged. Of course this is not present in every private school student, but rarely will you see a state-educated child snobbish about their background.
I'm a state-educated student at a Russell Group university and I suffered this problem in halls, hence my initial prejudice towards privately educated students. I made the fatal mistake of applying for expensive halls and I turned out to be the only state-educated person in my flat; the culture shock was immense and I felt absolutely intimidated by most of my flatmates even though some of them were actually quite nice. But one of them, a Medicine student, was a complete and utter bully - an UNFATHOMABLY HORRIBLE, entitled little trample-on-others-to-be-successful type who drove me to isolation in my first semester, and I blame that evil prick for basically hindering my whole social life here and driving me to loneliness and depression, and even alcoholism. Eventually the situation was so bad that I just moved out of my flat over the Christmas holidays without even letting any of my flatmates know - all because of one terror of a person without an atom of humanity. I hope this is not a reflection of most privileged kids...

In case people have a go at me, I'm fully aware that not all privately educated people are like this. Actually, the nicest people I've met at university are also privately educated so I usually keep my personal little prejudice quiet because I know it doesn't always apply, but what I refuse to deny on TSR is the godawful experience I had with the most insufferable end of the privately-educated spectrum - it was SO BAD that to this day I'm still mentally recovering and trying to get my head around it. Sure, there were some horrible pricks at my state school (as there are in all walks of life) but I'd never experienced or witnessed such a cruel and overwhelming sense of entitlement or superiority in a human being before. It was insane...

People don't have to take the following seriously: The good thing about state schools is that you're usually bullied or affected to the point that any self-esteem or ego you may have will not develop or inflict harm on anyone else. Private schools are all about providing 'the best' for its students, but if such places are responsible for harnessing such over-the-top, intimidating auras of holier-than-thou, academic smugness in certain young people and making them believe they're indestructible, merciless balls of brilliance who are destined for top-of-the-ladder careers and are meanwhile allowed to bully and $hit on everyone else 'below' them then yes, private schools should be abolished without question or excuse!
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by DaveSmith99)
No, how will that help anyone? We need to make state schools as good, if not better than public schools.
I agree state schools should be improved, but in the meantime, the private school system remains completely demoralising to people who aren't made of money. Abolishing them would be psychologically very helpful for many and would at last make education much more level and fair for all. Of course, we can't possibly have this because people are unequal! The respect and entitlement you deserve (should you deserve any) is defined by how wealthy your parents are from the moment you're born and for some reason this is still widely accepted and deemed fair by people living in a first world country in the 21st Century.
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DaveSmith99
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
I agree state schools should be improved, but in the meantime, the private school system remains completely demoralising to people who aren't made of money. Abolishing them would be psychologically very helpful for many and would at last make education much more level and fair for all. Of course, we can't possibly have this because people are unequal! The respect and entitlement you deserve (should you deserve any) is defined by how wealthy your parents are from the moment you're born, and for some reason this is still widely accepted and deemed fair by people living in a first world country in the 21st Century.
Private schools take around 10% of all school children in the country (IIRC), we ban them then these 10% just have to be absorbed by the state and resources will be stretched even thinner.
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