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Bakery refuses to make "gay cake"; faces legal action Watch

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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    As plenty of people have already pointed out very eloquently, the bakery owners weren't discriminating against the person based on his sexuality. If a straight person had requested the same cake, they still wouldn't have made it.
    However, there is no basis in the Bible for an anti-gay or homophobic attitude. Find me verses/passages/quotes and I will argue my case.
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    (Original post by Theflyingbarney)
    I'm in two minds over the whole thing (as I was with the B&B case). On the one hand I'm staunchly in favour of homosexual rights, but at the same time I'm also staunchly in favour of the principle of contractual freedom which is just as, if not more, important. On balance here I'd probably be tempted to side in favour of forcing the bakery to make the cake, since the reasons they've given for refusing to do so are solely discriminatory in their basis. However, that makes it very difficult to draw an actual line as to when we can force someone to provide goods/services against their will, and certainly I don't think that businesses should be forced to serve anyone who asks them to. So personally I'd prefer to go with an approach of only forcing people to serve particular customers where their reasons for not doing so are solely on the basis of discrimination because of their own opinions, and not for any business reason.
    Are they solely discriminatory?

    I think this could be an interesting discussion.
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    It is literally their damn business.
    Their business is the designing and making of cakes - not what goes on it or what goes where or how it should look, that is entirely up to the customer. A bit like web design - you accept what the client says, no matter how wrong and stupid you think they sound.
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    This has happened in Belfast. Belfast has a lot of other issues to address, including it's Assembly's refusal to grant equal marriage rights available elsewhere in the UK. A small, independent bakery that holds archaic views is not news.

    It is however an opportunity for something that really annoys me- lazy activism. "Damn this bigoted bakery, denying civil right- I shall boycott them, I hope the courts screw them!"

    Oh yeah? Do you boycott global conglomorates like Nestlé and Coca Cola? Or is that too inconvenient for you? Also have you lobbied your local public representative?
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    (Original post by Helevorn)
    Discriminating based on political affiliation is illegal in Northern Ireland.

    The legislation outlaws four types of discrimination which a person can complain about to a Fair Employment Tribunal. Direct discrimination is where someone is treated less favourably on the grounds of their religious belief and/or political opinion than another person in the same or similar situation. For example, the best person in a company was not given a promotion because of their religion while a less able person of a different religion was promoted. Direct discrimination on the grounds of religious belief or political opinion can include discrimination based on an employer's perception of a person’s religious belief or political opinion, even if that perception is incorrect.
    It should be said that employment legislation is a very other situation. Generally any discrimination not directly relevant to the job is illegal. Not so in the service case.
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    This has happened in Belfast. Belfast has a lot of other issues to address, including it's Assembly's refusal to grant equal marriage rights available elsewhere in the UK. A small, independent bakery that holds archaic views is not news.

    It is however an opportunity for something that really annoys me- lazy activism. "Damn this bigoted bakery, denying civil right- I shall boycott them, I hope the courts screw them!"

    Oh yeah? Do you boycott global conglomorates like Nestlé and Coca Cola? Or is that too inconvenient for you? Also have you lobbied your local public representative?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    As plenty of people have already pointed out very eloquently, the bakery owners weren't discriminating against the person based on his sexuality. If a straight person had requested the same cake, they still wouldn't have made it.
    Straight people were also unable to marry people of the same sex until recently.
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    (Original post by Mazzini)
    However, there is no basis in the Bible for an anti-gay or homophobic attitude. Find me verses/passages/quotes and I will argue my case.
    I'm not personally religious. I just don't think the bakery was discriminating against someone on the basis of their sexuality.
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    If people want to practise gayism they can do so just not in a bakery run by someone who is against such actions.
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    You're going to have to clarify what you mean here. Linking wikipedia pages defining types of argument is not sufficient.
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    (Original post by CJKay)
    Their business is the designing and making of cakes - not what goes on it or what goes where or how it should look, that is entirely up to the customer. A bit like web design - you accept what the client says, no matter how wrong and stupid you think they sound.
    Yeah I know, I just wanted to say that line really.

    That said, the principle has to be limited. The business owners have to be within their rights to refuse to make some products. After all, one could design a cake which could harm the reputation of any business willing to produce it.
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    (Original post by CJKay)
    Their business is the designing and making of cakes - not what goes on it or what goes where or how it should look, that is entirely up to the customer. A bit like web design - you accept what the client says, no matter how wrong and stupid you think they sound.
    If you go to a restaurant though, you're normally expected to order something that is on the menu; something that the chef is willing to cook, and the restaurant is willing to sell. They might offer some flexibility, but you can't just invent any random dish and expect them to prepare it for you.

    Unless they are specifically advertising "we will tailor-make it exactly the way you want, no matter what it is", you have to also operate within the constraints of what the provider is willing to sell - not just what the customer wants.
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    Where does the line get drawn if this kind of thing is allowed though?

    Let's say I stay at a hotel, Premier Inn for example.

    Are they allowed to turn me away because I'm pansexual?
    Are they allowed to turn me away because I'm pansexual and have brought a male partner?

    Let's assume they allow us to stay, and in the restaurant they offer personalised cakes, included in the room rate.

    Are they allowed to reject my gay marriage proposal text?
    Are they allowed to reject the cake entirely because that particular baker is homophobic?
    I've paid for my room already; can I get it refunded?

    I have to leave early in the morning and ask to leave a message for my partner when he leaves.

    Are they allowed to reject it because I'm gay?
    Are they allowed to reject it because I tell him I love him?
    Are they allowed to have one member of staff accept the message, but during handover the next employee call me up during my meeting to tell me they've thought about it and don't think it's appropriate?
    Can I get my room refunded yet?

    What about if a family-run business of 3 has one homophobic member. If businesses as entities are allowed to do what they want as has been suggested, then what about individual staff members where the company has no policy? Is it acceptable that a business be allowed to employ somebody who refuses me a room because I'm not straight while employing 2 members of staff who would treat the next gay couple differently?

    The Equality Act exists to support equal treatment and opportunities for people regardless of sexual orientation among other characteristics. There's little point if people are allowed to advertise themselves as homophobic and bypass the legislation purely because they're open about their bigotry.

    If this customer were straight they'd have been served, but because they're not they were discriminated against whether this is masked as a political protest or not.
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)


    This is activism though. They have every right to refuse to make activist cakes. Besides, it's not as, by your logic by the images you posted, they refuse to serve gay customers or even if they would refuse to make a wedding cake with two men on the top. What they refused to make was an activist design, perhaps because of their own beliefs or because they feel it might reflect negatively on their business. Instead of suing them, the morons should've asked elsewhere.

    **** me, it's just a cake - And not even for someone's wedding or birthday either.


    "Businesses should not be able to pick and choose who they serve," Mr Muir Alliance Councillor said.
    Wow, what a blatant lie. They never said they refused to serve anyone because they were gay.

    I don't see the problem. They didn't refuse to serve people because they were gay. They refused to make a product regardless of who asked for it. The activist group are over-entitled nutsacks as they want some media attention so filed this lawsuit instead of using common sense and ask someone else to make their product.

    This will be what the bakery's lawyers will say in court. A service hasn't been refused to people because of the customers. The service has been refused because of the product. Good luck claiming this is discrimination.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    If you go to a restaurant though, you're normally expected to order something that is on the menu; something that the chef is willing to cook, and the restaurant is willing to sell. They might offer some flexibility, but you can't just invent any random dish and expect them to prepare it for you.

    Unless they are specifically advertising "we will tailor-make it exactly the way you want, no matter what it is", you have to also operate within the constraints of what the provider is willing to sell - not just what the customer wants.
    Of course you can't, because they likely a) don't have all the exact ingredients you're looking for, b) the chef doesn't know how to make the meal you're looking for and c) nobody has the time to take down recipes and figure out how to cook them. The whole reason for a menu is so that they can provide particular meals at pace with no faffing around. That is one of the worst comparisons ever.
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    (Original post by Three Mile Sprint)
    It's their business, they get to discriminate.
    No they do not
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    No they do not
    Not legally of course.

    But they should get to.
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    (Original post by Three Mile Sprint)
    Not legally of course.

    But they should get to.
    So you would support discrimination based on sexuality, race and disability?
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    So you would support discrimination based on sexuality, race and disability?
    Yes

    For the record, I would be affected by such discrimination.
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    (Original post by CJKay)
    Their business is the designing and making of cakes - not what goes on it or what goes where or how it should look, that is entirely up to the customer. A bit like web design - you accept what the client says, no matter how wrong and stupid you think they sound.
    Yet numerous web-hosting companies and web-designers have refused to work for or host white-supremacists site Stormfront and other related groups.
 
 
 
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