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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    It is idle to claim that Hamas ignored all requests for ceasefire. The only 'requests' Hamas refused to comply with were the requests that were taken for granted to happen, even though Hamas was not consulted during negotiations.
    I also refuse to believe that you genuinely believe with all your heart that 'it doesn't matter how densely populated' the Gaza strip is. It actually matters immensely if Israel is so concerns as it purports to be about civilian deaths.

    What you are effectively saying is that Mike Tyson (Israel in this case) is perfectly justified in punching a toddler (Hamas in this case) that has unfortunately chanced to spit in his face, Hamas having taken the latter course of action in this case as a sign of resistance. It is is something Hamas has been doing for a long, long time, ineffectively, and entirely harmlessly, so it is certainly not the reason, no matter how much Israel claims it is, for Israel's currently ongoing killing spree in Gaza. May I suggest a read: http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-energy-crisis
    It's more like Mike Tyson punishing a toddler with a gun, your argument would work if Hamas were not capable of causing damage. As it is, they can and do kill people.

    Israel has no obligation to accept the terms set out by Hamas, Israel is the one being attacked (Hamas struck first) and so have every right to counter attack. If Hamas want peace, they can settle for the terms Israel is happy with. Why should Israel do what Hamas wants when Hamas are the aggressors? If Hamas want the war that they started to end, they have the option to end it. Israel has less need to end the war because they are winning.
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    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    Oh look, a Hamas supporter. I'll pretend not to be disgusted as much as id be at someone justifying ISIS or Al Qaeda.

    No, Hamas is not a terrorist. The world does not go by Israel's account of events. Hamas is Palestinian resistance.

    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    1) We know Hamas is under no obligation to stop firing Iranian supplied rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, their existence is to kill Jews as written in their charter. Oh, and no obligation either to stop using the Palestinian people as HUMAN SHIELDS. A Palestinian child being killed is good headlines for them, nothing more.
    You are no spokesperson for Hamas, and nobody is going to believe the nonsense you're spewing about what Hamas likes and what it wants to do with Jews.
    Suffice to say that Hamas would not currently be in existence were the state of Israel not in existence. It would be even less in existence if Israel were less a bloodthirsty bestial being and showed more human traits towards its gentile neighbours, who also happen to be the very people Israel has historically sorely wronged.

    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    2) This ceasefire was not some chit chat on twitter. It was a formal proposal endorsed by the Arab League, the U.S. and the UN.
    Astoundingly inaccurate details. You seem to know very little of exactly how this ceasefire came about to be announced, much less of the inner details of who was and wasn't involved.

    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    3) A loser does not set terms. Have you watched the movie "Downfall" which is about the Soviets going into Berlin in 1945? the soviet general almost laughed when the Germans asked for a conditional ceasefire.
    And I laugh now, or cry, as it were, at you quoting me a movie as backup for your juvenile and unprofessional claim that 'a loser does not set terms'.
    Not only is it questionable whether Hamas is a loser in the long run, seeing Israel's incapability as dismantling it, no matter how hard it tries and how it loses perspective of everything, but that is also not how things work in the real world, and thank God for that.
    This is a war, or battle, whichever you prefer, and a serious ceasefire will be negotiated by both sides, if it is what is genuinely wanted. This 'ceasefire' that was unilaterally arranged is a joke, and by no means a ceasefire. It is as much a ceasefire as the ceasefire Hamas arranged. Interesting, and very telling, that you choose to ignore altogether Hamas's attempt at a ceasefire, perhaps again simply because you perceive it as being on the losing end of things. I dare say Hamas the same opinion of Israel.

    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    3) Between 2005-2007 when the PA had Gaza under their control, there was no blockade by Israel and Egypt. The blockade came because Hamas came to power and imported missiles, turning Gaza into an Iranian launching pad for rockets. What kind of country would allow a terrorist group to have free movement and smuggle more weapons in? their terms are reasonable if you hate Israel.
    The PA is a corrupt government, a puppet government, ready to bend over backwards at whatever Israel orders. That is why Israel is on such friendly terms with it.
    Please, do not commence with the 'no country would allow terrorists' tripe. Israel is no ordinary country. Israel was built on the skulls of Palestinians; Israel came about illegally and immorally, as recognised by the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, and Israel will have no peace until it compromises and until justice is done to those who were direly wronged with Israel's inception.

    4) The main aggressor is not Israel when Hamas started this by firing 350 rockets at Israeli cities, 3 weeks prior to the Israel finally reacting. Hamas is an aggressor against both Israel and the Palestinians.
    Inaccurate.
    How it all started: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHtJS...AgVhKH9jT0ViRg

    Israel uses weapons to defend its civilians. Hamas uses its civilians to defend its weapons.
    A sorry misconception popular with a particularly deluded class of Zionists.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    Israel has no conceivable right to order civilians out of their homes. Israel has as much right to evacuate homes as Zionists did back in 1948. Like HRW said, just because Israel is ordering civilians out of their homes does not legitimise or legalise Israel's bloody rampage in Gaza.

    Nobody is ordering anyone out of their homes. They're not being forced to leave, they're being advised to leave because there are targets in close proximity to them.


    Hamas is the only Palestinian resistance. Hamas rules Gaza. Hamas is in a position to urge Palestinians to stay in their own homes, and Hamas is right, as Israel, as I have already said, has no right in the world to order Palestinians out of their homes

    Hamas is not right to ask its civilians to stay in places where they'll be bombed, but sure they can make that suggestion. The clueless masses need sob stories to continue their pro Gaza protests.


    I would prefer to use a more reliable source than some random website off the Internet on whose anti-Zionism I should have to take your word. If you'd done your number crunching right, you would know that HRW has made it clear that the civilian casualties are well over 70%.
    Even were they 30% that would not be any cause to condemn Israeli any less. Israel has no right to kill any single civilian. Zionist cronies think they're being very liberal when they allow that civilian casualties are regrettable. Not only are they regrettable, they are also unacceptable, and are the reason why Hamas exists and continues to fight.

    ​Israel did not target civilians, civilians just happened to be hanging around military targets when they were repeatedly told not to. Almost like they've adopted the role of... um... I don't know, human shields?

    If you don't mind, I will not reply to any of your incoming posts if you continue to be devotedly and frankly disgustingly biased to Israeli murder by calling Israeli strikes 'stunningly accurate'. If Israeli strikes were stunningly accurate as you hail them, I would have no case.

    Any such operation would have some civilian casualties. It is inevitable.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    Neither does the rest of the world.
    What exactly are you blathering about?
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    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist:

    “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
    “We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
    “When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    Israel has no conceivable right to order civilians out of their homes. Israel has as much right to evacuate homes as Zionists did back in 1948. Like HRW said, just because Israel is ordering civilians out of their homes does not legitimise or legalise Israel's bloody rampage in Gaza..
    I'm afraid it does.

    First of all, under international law, if a school, house, cafe whatever is being used to fire from i.e being used for military purposes - then it's a legitimate military target.

    Similarly, under international law, Israel is obliged to notify civilians of upcoming air strikes. Not ordering them, notifying them.

    That means that if the civilians have been notified and chose NOT to leave, then Israel will not be culpable for their deaths

    Those are the facts.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)

    Any such operation would have some civilian casualties. It is inevitable.
    Like HRW made clear, just because Israel is ordering Gazans out of their homes (and Israel indeed ordered them out; do you honestly expect Israel to meekly request them to evacuate) doesn't make its strikes on those homes any more moral or legal.

    I do not buy the Zionist-ego-stroking argument that Hamas uses Palestinian civilians as shields.
    The fact is that Palestinian civilians die as a result of direct Israeli missiles.
    You choose to say that the Palestinian civilians were specifically positioned there to act as human shields, though you have no evidence for it, as correlation does not imply causation.
    Allowing, for argument's sake, that that is true, Israel, knowing of the existence of Palestinians at the time, should have better sense than to bomb the life out of them.
    Did you read of the young men watching football on a beach? The little children playing football on a beach, who had the life bombed out of them, just a few hours ago?
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...t-hand-account
    https://twitter.com/StefanieDekker/s...26261702217728
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/wo...?smid=tw-share
    Israel is a criminal.
    Israel is aware that civilian deaths are inevitable and yet it goes on striking Gaza under the blatantly false pretext that it aims to wipe out Hamas. It has tried repeatedly to do that but has failed, and yet it continues to risk civilian lives with its inhuman assault.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    Oh, look, a Zionist supporter. I'll pretend no to be as disguted as I'd be if someone supported Hitler's crimes against Jews.
    bla bla blaaaa.

    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    No, Hamas is not a terrorist. The world does not go by Israel's account of events. Hamas is Palestinian resistance. I'm sorry (or not) if your sheltered existence renders you faint at that proposition.
    As it happens, the international community does go by the fact that Hamas are terrorists. Even Jordan and Egypt have designated them as a terrorist organization.


    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    You are no spokesperson for Hamas, and nobody is going to believe the nonsense you're spewing about what Hamas likes and what it wants to do with Jews.
    Suffice to say that Hamas would not currently be in existence were the state of Israel not in existence. It would be even less in existence if Israel were less a bloodthirsty bestial being and showed more human traits towards its gentile neighbours, who also happen to be the very people Israel has historically sorely wronged.
    Western media is covering Hamas' crimes big time.


    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    Astoundingly inaccurate details. You seem to know very little of exactly how this ceasefire came about to be announced, much less of the inner details of who was and wasn't involved.
    Go cry about it. There was a big headline on the front page of CNN about Israel accepting the ceasefire and Hamas rejecting it, lol. The CNN journalist mocked that ugly Hamas spokesman in Beirut, his beard was shaking.

    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    This is a war, or battle, whichever you prefer, and a serious ceasefire will be negotiated by both sides, if it is what is genuinely wanted. This 'ceasefire' that was unilaterally arranged is a joke, and by no means a ceasefire. It is as much a ceasefire as the ceasefire Hamas arranged. Interesting, and very telling, that you choose to ignore altogether Hamas's attempt at a ceasefire, perhaps again simply because you perceive it as being on the losing end of things. I dare say Hamas the same opinion of Israel.
    Oh yeah, like all the other ceasefires Hamas has violated. For Muslims a ceasefire is simply a period used to reorganize for the next battle. The poor Egyptians who are very pro-Palestinian worked hard for this ceasefire.


    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    The PA is a corrupt government, a puppet government, ready to bend over backwards at whatever Israel orders. That is why Israel is on such friendly terms with it.
    Please, do not commence with the 'no country would allow terrorists' tripe. Israel is no ordinary country. Israel was built on the skulls of Palestinians; Israel came about illegally and immorally, as recognised by the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, and Israel will have no peace until it compromises and until justice is done to those who were direly wronged with Israel's inception.
    Yeah, "corrupt" because you're mad that they renounced violence and recognized Israel in 1993 in the Oslo Accords. How dare those infidel traitors do such a thing?!!

    Israel is the most legal as it gets. Germany and Italy were created by war as did many countries. Not that it matters, as long as its a Jewish state then its "illegal" BTW cherry picking names to prove a point does not count.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    I'm afraid it does.

    First of all, under international law, if a school house, cafe whatever is being used to fire from i.e being used for military purposes - then it's a legitimate military target.

    Similarly, under international law, Israel is obliged to notify civilians of upcoming air strikes. Not ordering them, notifying them.

    That means that if the civilians have been notified and chose NOT to leave, then Israel will not be culpable for their deaths

    Those are the facts.
    By international law, Israel is guilty of crimes in Gaza and the West Bank, and is guilty of an ongoing occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people.

    Israel will be culpable for all deaths brought about by Israeli strikes.

    By this international law you quote, Hamas is all too justified in using Israel as a target for its rockets, no matter how ineffective these rockets are.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    By international law, Israel is guilty of crimes in Gaza and the West Bank, and is guilty of an ongoing occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people.

    Israel will be culpable for all deaths brought about by Israeli strikes.

    By this international law you quote, Hamas is all too justified in using Israel as a target for its rockets, no matter how ineffective these rockets are.
    You can use hyperbole as much as you like, but it doesn't change the facts that if Israel notifies civilians (as they have done through leaflet drops, phone calls, texts and 'roof knocks') and the civilians choose to remain/forced to by Hamas, Israel is not culpable for their deaths.

    In situations where there is an operational error and a target is hit that was not being used for military purposes and civilians were not warned, then there is a case.

    As for Hamas, I'm afraid you're mistaken. They do not notify civilians and their targets are indiscriminate. Which makes this a war crime.

    International law is quite simple in this regard.
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    (Original post by james22)
    It's more like Mike Tyson punishing a toddler with a gun, your argument would work if Hamas were not capable of causing damage. As it is, they can and do kill people.

    Israel has no obligation to accept the terms set out by Hamas, Israel is the one being attacked (Hamas struck first) and so have every right to counter attack. If Hamas want peace, they can settle for the terms Israel is happy with. Why should Israel do what Hamas wants when Hamas are the aggressors? If Hamas want the war that they started to end, they have the option to end it. Israel has less need to end the war because they are winning.
    In that case, Hamas is under no obligation to accept a ceasefire orchestrated by Egypt and Israel, both entities oppressive to Gaza and its inhabitants.
    'Hamas struck first'? That's as juvenile and ridiculous as an adult can get.
    'Hamas are the aggressors; Hamas started the war'? Are you actually being serious???

    Please watch:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHtJS...AgVhKH9jT0ViRg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ3UZxWAcfw
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)

    By this international law you quote, Hamas is all too justified in using Israel as a target for its rockets, no matter how ineffective these rockets are.
    Not really. Hamas is actively targeting Israel, which also includes civilian buildings. Nowhere under international law is Hamas allowed to actively target civilians. Just areas which are used for military activities or storage of military armaments.

    So no, Hamas is not at all justified in firing their ****ty rockets anywhere.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    You can use hyperbole as much as you like, but it doesn't change the facts that if Israel notifies civilians (as they have done through leaflet drops, phone calls, texts and 'roof knocks') and the civilians choose to remain/forced to by Hamas, Israel is not culpable for their deaths.

    In situations where there is an operational error and a target is hit that was not being used for military purposes and civilians were not warned, then there is a case.

    As for Hamas, I'm afraid you're mistaken. They do not notify civilians and their targets are indiscriminate. Which makes this a war crime.

    International law is quite simple in this regard.
    I am far from employing hyperbole. I am not acquainted with the international law you quote so I have to take your word for it, which needless to say I will not, so I have little to say to you other than what I do know about international law, and that is that is certainly does not legalise the killing of Palestinian civilians, no matter if they're notified or not. International organisations have made that unanimously abundantly clear regarding what is currently going on; you can ignore/deny it as much as you like, but it just simply stands.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    Hamas is under no obligation to accept a ceasefire to which they see no benefit.
    Hamas had no part to play in the negotiations for the ceasefire, and they made that clear.
    As the initial ceasefire was a unilateral negotiation, so Hamas set its own terms for ceasefire. They were extremely reasonable, even pathetic, terms, which Israel refused to accept: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report...onditions.html

    The blame for deaths is on those who pull the trigger only. No reasonable person would blame the past 200+ Palestinian deaths on Hamas. This is a war, and the main aggressor is Israel. If you want to decide who to blame, just count the dead bodies.
    The only person who would have the gall to blame those deaths on Hamas would be the same person who would always question any Israeli involvement in crimes, notwithstanding Israel's past heavily laden with crimes and illegal activities, even its immoral and illegal origins.
    Exactly. Hamas doesn't care whether their civilians die. They aren't willing to discuss a ceasefire because they see no benefit in stopping civilian deaths. You've basically summed up Hamas in one sentence.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    Not really. Hamas is actively targeting Israel, which also includes civilian buildings. Nowhere under international law is Hamas allowed to actively target civilians. Just areas which are used for military activities or storage of military armaments.

    So no, Hamas is not at all justified in firing their ****ty rockets anywhere.
    Israel is actively targeting Gaza, which also includes civilian buildings. Nowhere under international law is Israel allowed to do that.

    See? All I had to do was copy paste your righteous little excerpt and replace 'Israel' with 'Hamas' and it's still makes as sense as ever it did, indeed perhaps even more than it previously did.
    Hamas hasn't the equipment Israel has to boast of accurate pot-shots at Israeli military stations. You are again making use of the correlation-causation fallacy.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    I am far from employing hyperbole. I am not acquainted with the international law you quote so I have to take your word for it, which needless to say I will not, so I have little to say to you other than what I do know about international law, and that is that is certainly does not legalise the killing of Palestinian civilians, no matter if they're notified or not. International organisations have made that unanimously abundantly clear regarding what is currently going on; you can ignore/deny it as much as you like, but it just simply stands.
    International law does not legalize the intentional killing of anyone, but I doubt you give a crap about 170,000 dead Syrians or a million dead Iraqis.

    11 million muslims killing by fellow muslims since 1948? irrelevant. Let's concentrate on the 20,000 killed by Israel mostly in wars.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    Israel is actively targeting Gaza, which also includes civilian buildings. Nowhere under international law is Israel allowed to do that.
    Sorry but he's actually right. Its no longer a civilian building once it is used by militants.
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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10971306/Israeli-naval-ship-bombs-Palestinian-children-on-Gaza-beach-killing-four.html

    "A journalist who saw the incident said some of the children who survived were running away when another shell seemed to be aimed at them."

    What will Israel's defenders say now? These are confirmed reports from numerous sources. Israel specifically targeted children.

    Don't Bull**** me about they were surrounded by Hamas or some crap like that.
    Its simple, they saw children playing on a beach and killed them for no reason.
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    This conflict is beyond disgusting
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    Exactly. Hamas doesn't care whether their civilians die. They aren't willing to discuss a ceasefire because they see no benefit in stopping civilian deaths. You've basically summed up Hamas in one sentence.
    Hamas would beg to differ with the Zionist take on its objective.

    Hamas called for a ceasefire on terms they judged would better livelihood in Gaza. Israel rejected that.

    To be in Israel's good books, Hamas would have to turn overnight into a mouse and a puppet, much like the PA, and do as Israel says, regardless of the consequences for the Palestinian people. The PA and Hamas are on relatively good terms because the PA is in a good position and as long as they can fill their pockets with civilian money and have their lives in no relative danger, they're happy.

    It takes courage and determination and a vision to struggle against such a demonic state as Israel is.

    You Zionists can demonise Hamas as much as makes you happy, but the real demon is apparent and it takes no special intellectual effort to locate it.
 
 
 
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