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Labour's Exteme Left Shadow Cabinet, no women in top jobs & appoints John McDonnell! watch

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    (Original post by Midlander)
    The SNP have replaced Labour in Scotland as the most vocal critics of the Tories as Labour shifted to the right to win Middle England. As it turns out they lost middle England and got trounced up here too. As for centrism, nationalism is not a centrist ideology.


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    I know that nationalism isn't centrist? :confused: I think we're actually agreeing here that Labour isn't going to do itself favours by shifting to what it thinks is the centre ground?
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    (Original post by L'Allegro)
    I know that nationalism isn't centrist? :confused: I think we're actually agreeing here that Labour isn't going to do itself favours by shifting to what it thinks is the centre ground?
    That is essentially my point yes. Labour are called the red Tories here because people no longer see a distinction between them. That is less aimed at individuals and more at the overall party. Corbyn's election has caught the SNP off-guard since they are now presented with a Labour leader who is the antithesis of all things Tory, unlike Ed 'the right to welfare must be earned' Miliband.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Also 'red tory' to describe Koer Starmer - what a joke.

    (Or anyone in the party for that matter, why are you Corbyn supporters so dead set on trying to make people leave the party? )
    Don't be ridiculous, nobody wants people to leave (on the contrary tens of thousands have joined the party as members). But you've got to question the likes of Liz Kendall whose ideas will make Labour indistinguishable from the Tories which was the primary reason I left the party in the first place. Tory-lite does not appeal to Tory voters and it does not appeal to Labour voters.

    I am tired of SNP government and I do not want another independence referendum. Labour remembering what it was founded to do offers the best chance of that.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    (Or anyone in the party for that matter, why are you Corbyn supporters so dead set on trying to make people leave the party? )
    We're the ones dismissing what some party members believe as 'Alice and Wonderland politics' ,saying that people voting for it need a heart transplant and threatening to coup if someone is elected

    Oh wait that's the 'progressive centrists', if you want an example of trying to push people out of the party that's it.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    That is essentially my point yes. Labour are called the red Tories here because people no longer see a distinction between them. That is less aimed at individuals and more at the overall party. Corbyn's election has caught the SNP off-guard since they are now presented with a Labour leader who is the antithesis of all things Tory, unlike Ed 'the right to welfare must be earned' Miliband.
    I see, and agree.

    I would suggest that Miliband was bending over backwards to try and rescue his reputation among the British media, and that given a choice his Labour party would have presented a manifesto shifted firmly leftward. I'm not saying he was right to do so, just that I think he was forced to.
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    (Original post by L'Allegro)
    I see, and agree.

    I would suggest that Miliband was bending over backwards to try and rescue his reputation among the British media, and that given a choice his Labour party would have presented a manifesto shifted firmly leftward. I'm not saying he was right to do so, just that I think he was forced to.
    If I recall his debating was so poor that the Tories were reluctant to debate him one on one for fear of being seen as bullies. That takes some doing.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    If I recall his debating was so poor that the Tories were reluctant to debate him one on one for fear of being seen as bullies. That takes some doing.
    Yet I thought Miliband acquited himself okay in the national debates. Not well, but he was no embarassment. He avoided any Bennett-esque gaffes and wasn't afraid to challenge Cameron and Farage.
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    (Original post by L'Allegro)
    Yet I thought Miliband acquited himself okay in the national debates. Not well, but he was no embarassment. He avoided any Bennett-esque gaffes and wasn't afraid to challenge Cameron and Farage.
    Farage was quite poor, but Cameron's days at Eton and Oxbridge make him a talented debater. At the end of the day Miliband was made to look shoddy by Dave and I think that persuaded a lot of people. I have no doubt at all that Corbyn could do a better job against any Tory stooge
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Nobody is going to get panned for trying to keep a hospital open. They should be panned for compromising their position on everything to the point nobody can distinguish them from the other major party.


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    You don't know anything about her do you?

    Please name some examples of where she (or Dan or Kier) have done that.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    We're the ones dismissing what some party members believe as 'Alice and Wonderland politics' ,saying that people voting for it need a heart transplant and threatening to coup if someone is elected

    Oh wait that's the 'progressive centrists', if you want an example of trying to push people out of the party that's it.
    Please explain to !e who out of Dan Jarvis, Kier Starmer, Heidi Alexander or me said that?
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Don't be ridiculous, nobody wants people to leave (on the contrary tens of thousands have joined the party as members). But you've got to question the likes of Liz Kendall whose ideas will make Labour indistinguishable from the Tories which was the primary reason I left the party in the first place. Tory-lite does not appeal to Tory voters and it does not appeal to Labour voters.

    I am tired of SNP government and I do not want another independence referendum. Labour remembering what it was founded to do offers the best chance of that.
    What do you think will happen if you call us all red Tories?

    It's not a nice environment to be in as a centrist at the moment. Even my MP, whose in the damn shadow cabinat, is being called it.

    I know a fair few people, mainly those who did the most campaigning over the election, who feel like their being forced out the party through these constant attacks.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Please explain to !e who out of Dan Jarvis, Kier Starmer, Heidi Alexander or me said that?
    None

    but please inform me which one of Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Dennis Skinner or Me said that the centrists were 'red tories'
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Farage was quite poor, but Cameron's days at Eton and Oxbridge make him a talented debater. At the end of the day Miliband was made to look shoddy by Dave and I think that persuaded a lot of people. I have no doubt at all that Corbyn could do a better job against any Tory stooge
    Insofar as Cameron was excellently polished, yes. I don't think, to any really discerning audience, he had any real substance.

    Of course, insofar as political opinion is often about who is 'made to look shoddy' and who is 'made to look good', that still meant Cameron came off a lot better. I'd have encouraged people to take his soundbites apart, though.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    None

    but please inform me which one of Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Dennis Skinner or Me said that the centrists were 'red tories'
    That doesn't make any sense - the claim was levelled in this thread that those people were red Tories. I said that was ridiculous and you then said they'd accused the left of Alice in wonderland politics and blah blah which had nothing to do with any of the MPs we were talking about?

    What Jeremy Corbyn et al has to do with any of this is beyond me.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    That doesn't make any sense - the claim was levelled in this thread that those people were red Tories. I said that was ridiculous and you then said they'd accused the left of Alice in wonderland politics and blah blah which had nothing to do with any of the MPs we were talking about?

    What Jeremy Corbyn et al has to do with any of this is beyond me.
    The claim was levelled that left wing Jeremy Corbyn supporters were trying to force the centrists out of the party with rhetoric such as red tories. However my comment was that the centrists had also been making claims about the alice and wonderland politics of the left and these were in fact from people like Mandelson and Blair instead of from people with extremely minimal influence on anything.

    My response was not to the full comment merely the portion that I quoted.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    You don't know anything about her do you?

    Please name some examples of where she (or Dan or Kier) have done that.
    The whole point of centreground politics is that you don't commit to anything decisively in one direction or the other. That means nobody knows what you stand for, and if the opposite party carries out the same strategy nobody can tell you apart. That is what so many people in Scotland are saying, it was ignored and we lost 40 seats. It is being ignored in the heartlands and UKIP are taking barrels of votes for the same reason.

    (Original post by redferry)
    What do you think will happen if you call us all red Tories?

    It's not a nice environment to be in as a centrist at the moment. Even my MP, whose in the damn shadow cabinat, is being called it.

    I know a fair few people, mainly those who did the most campaigning over the election, who feel like their being forced out the party through these constant attacks.
    Corbyn has faced attacks from his fellow leadership candidates, most media sources and from a whole host of former Labour politicians. The red Tory label started in Scotland because people couldn't tell Labour apart from the Tories. Initially I dismissed it but as time went on and Ed Miliband started criticising the unions, started signing up to another round of austerity I didn't know what Labour stood for anymore.

    The battle for the centreground did not win the swing seats as hoped and it lost nearly all of our seats north of the border, some possibly for good. None of Coventry's 3 Labour MPs opposed the welfare bill, which will hit a lot of people in the city, because Harman wanted to be 'tough on welfare'.
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    (Original post by L'Allegro)
    Insofar as Cameron was excellently polished, yes. I don't think, to any really discerning audience, he had any real substance.

    Of course, insofar as political opinion is often about who is 'made to look shoddy' and who is 'made to look good', that still meant Cameron came off a lot better. I'd have encouraged people to take his soundbites apart, though.
    Every Tory leader speaks in the knowledge that he has the media on his side which makes personal shortcomings easier to manage. Ed Miliband had the Daily Mail printing pages and pages of bile about his dead father. Labour leaders need to have more steel to them than that, Blair had it, Corbyn has it, Miliband didn't.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Every Tory leader speaks in the knowledge that he has the media on his side which makes personal shortcomings easier to manage. Ed Miliband had the Daily Mail printing pages and pages of bile about his dead father. Labour leaders need to have more steel to them than that, Blair had it, Corbyn has it, Miliband didn't.
    Again, I agree. I think Corbyn has the steel, but it's early days and the true media onslaught is yet to properly take shape.
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    (Original post by L'Allegro)
    Again, I agree. I think Corbyn has the steel, but it's early days and the true media onslaught is yet to properly take shape.
    Haha, if this is them just getting warmed up I have no idea what they're lining up. Suffice to say the longer he says 'I don't care what you write' the more riled they will become, just as they will if he starts to gain popularity with the general public.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    The whole point of centreground politics is that you don't commit to anything decisively in one direction or the other. That means nobody knows what you stand for, and if the opposite party carries out the same strategy nobody can tell you apart. That is what so many people in Scotland are saying, it was ignored and we lost 40 seats. It is being ignored in the heartlands and UKIP are taking barrels of votes for the same reason.



    Corbyn has faced attacks from his fellow leadership candidates, most media sources and from a whole host of former Labour politicians. The red Tory label started in Scotland because people couldn't tell Labour apart from the Tories. Initially I dismissed it but as time went on and Ed Miliband started criticising the unions, started signing up to another round of austerity I didn't know what Labour stood for anymore.

    The battle for the centreground did not win the swing seats as hoped and it lost nearly all of our seats north of the border, some possibly for good. None of Coventry's 3 Labour MPs opposed the welfare bill, which will hit a lot of people in the city, because Harman wanted to be 'tough on welfare'.
    So by attacking all the sentrista you'll force them out and purify the party?! Only the true lefts can contest the Tories?

    Amiright


    Let's just ignore the fact anlot of swing voters loved Tony Blair.

    Can tell you've never been on the doorstep, you have no idea of the wider public's views, you just live in some little left wing echo chamber.
 
 
 
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