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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    When we look for intelligent alien life, that's generally what we mean by intelligence. The type of intelligence humans have. That doesn't mean 'this alien has human like intelligence, therefore they are like humans'. Just simply that we share that same quality.

    I don't even think you can call that an assumption. I thought that was how we defined the type of intelligence we are looking for in ETI.
    No, your "non-assumption" is wrong. Intelligent life is simply life with intelligence comparable in its compass to that of humans. It may take many forms (even based on a different chemistry) and, indeed, we not be able to communicate with it even if we find it.
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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    That's far from infinite.
    It is also wrong. The current best estimate is 170-200 billion galaxies in the observable universe. The observable universe is an infinitesimally small fraction of the universe.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    No, your "non-assumption" is wrong. Intelligent life is simply life with intelligence comparable in its compass to that of humans. It may take many forms (even based on a different chemistry) and, indeed, we not be able to communicate with it even if we find it.
    Really I don't see anything here that disagrees with what I said.

    'Intelligence comparable in its compass with that of humans'. Yes that's pretty much the gist of what people mean when they talk of ETI. Intelligence that includes things like consciousness, self awareness and abstract thought.

    I said nothing as to what it would be like biologically otherwise so don't see your point in highlighting different possible forms, chemistry or potential problems in communication.

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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    Well you are. There are around 100 billion galaxies. That's far from infinite.
    See Good bloke's post.

    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    But even if I take your comment on infinite its it still means little. You haven't used enough background information in deciding you probability. It could be that some galaxies aren't able to give birth to life. You certainly could have many solar systems within this galaxies, of which the probability is as close to zero as possible, perhaps even certain. Simply appealing to the number of planets does little.
    I don't need to. The probability must be non-zero, because our solar system has produced life.

    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    Your last point is changing your argument. You said it made life certain, which would be 1. Now you are saying as long as it's above 0 the arguemnt stands. But the latter is just a way of saying as long as it's possible then there's an argument, as far away as certainty as you can get.
    No. You have misinterpreted the statistical argument.

    Let me make it clearer: there is a non-zero probability, p, that any given solar system will contain life. Now, there is an effectively infinite number of solar systems, so regardless of how small p is, the probability that there is at least one solar system (other than ours) which contains life is effectively 1. The factors you listed reduce p, but as long as p is non-zero (and it must be, because we are here), the 1 is still 1.
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    (Original post by maninblack00)
    By no means does it limit your life experience. If God exists then you've had a finite gain/enjoyment on earth compared to an infinite loss in heaven. But the people who do believe in God would have a finite loss on earth; if you can call it finite cause all it is really is going to church on Sunday and doing the right thing as God wants, and they would have an infinite gain in Heaven because they have lived a fufilled life. I completely understand everything you've said about it being illogical and contradictory and to be honest it really is sometimes. But it's all about a leap of faith and I'm prepared to do that.
    Yeah I agree that having a limited/finite experience on earth and infinite gain in heaven is a much more preferable situation to having a finite gain on earth. Although I would prefer to have the first situation you also have to factor in probability and the fact is it is extremely unlikely that the first situation is even a possibility.

    If you used the analogy of betting and you were only allowed one bet you could say that the first situation is like betting £10 with 1,000,000,000,000-to-1 odds with the potential to win an infinite amount of money. Whereas situation two is like betting £10 with 2-to-1 odds with the potential to win £20. The prize of the first situation is much more desirable however in reality if you want to win anything at all it would be much rational to go with situation two.
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    See Good bloke's post.



    I don't need to. The probability must be non-zero, because our solar system has produced life.



    No. You have misinterpreted the statistical argument.

    Let me make it clearer: there is a non-zero probability, p, that any given solar system will contain life. Now, there is an effectively infinite number of solar systems, so regardless of how small p is, the probability that there is at least one solar system (other than ours) which contains life is effectively 1. The factors you listed reduce p, but as long as p is non-zero (and it must be, because we are here), the 1 is still 1.
    You are relying on an effectively infinite number of solar systems, but there's no way of knowing if that's true. We have no idea if space is infinite or not. it is perfectly plausible that our three-dimensional space is finite, this doesn't matter regardless of the geometry. Even if space is flat, still perfectly consistent to be like a torus. In which case the volume of the universe is finite and you cannot have infinite planets let alone solar systems. This is speaking globally as well, that's including the observable universe as well as outside it.

    But the best answer is - we don't know.

    So, you should qualify your argument as such;

    'Given an infinite number of solar systems (which of course needs an infinite universe) then it is certain that ET life exists. But everyone agrees on that!

    As I said, there are many variables we either don't know or can't know and so cannot speak with certainty.




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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    You are relying on an effectively infinite number of solar systems, but there's no way of knowing if that's true.
    Hence the term "effectively". The universe is so big that it doesn't matter. As it happens, most cosmologists do think it is infinite, so I'm going to trust them, and - as a non-expert - so should you.

    We've gotten off track, here. I still haven't been given an example of something in which belief is widespread, and for which there is no evidence.
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    I believe in Spiderman At least my 'God' helps people
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    (Original post by driftawaay)
    If I could eradicate one thing from this planet, it would be religion. It is the root of all evil.
    Somebody is fishing for the the rep from Atheists
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    (Original post by JoshDawg)
    Somebody is fishing for the the rep from Atheists
    I just reacted to the OP. But whatever you say.
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    Hence the term "effectively". The universe is so big that it doesn't matter. As it happens, most cosmologists do think it is infinite, so I'm going to trust them, and - as a non-expert - so should you.

    We've gotten off track, here. I still haven't been given an example of something in which belief is widespread, and for which there is no evidence.
    Actually it's isn't 'effectively'. We haven't even a decent idea what size it is, or the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite. 'It's so big it doesn't matter' is just silly. There's big, bigger and infinite. We haven't got a clue which.

    Now I would like you to support the statement 'most cosmologists think it's infinite'. There haven't the faintest of the geometry, topology of the universe - heck even inflation is argued!

    So if you could please, could I have stats on how many cosmologists think the universe is infinite?

    But to answer your original question, what about ghosts?

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    (Original post by driftawaay)
    No, it's because the vast majority of young people today are not religious and know what a stupid ****ed up thing it is.
    Actually, no. Alot of young people these days have a lot of personal problems and need some something to attack to make themselves feel better. Whether it's someone's religious beliefs or trending haircuts.
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    (Original post by silverbolt)
    wrong. Man is the root of all evil, who use religion to excuse thier actions.

    Faith on the other hand is a very good thing. I have faith and i am not evil, nor is my particular religion.
    I think they were quoting the bible. It was very clever actually...
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    (Original post by robinfr)
    I seriously don't understand religion bashers the ones that don't really know anything about the religion and the people who follow the religion. I dunno it just gets on my nerves. does it get on anyone else's nerves
    Live an let live
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    (Original post by silverbolt)
    wrong. Man is the root of all evil, who use religion to excuse thier actions.

    Faith on the other hand is a very good thing. I have faith and i am not evil, nor is my particular religion.
    Faith is not a good thing. As long as individual keeps it on themselves its neutral thing at best. When they start to try to convert others, raise their innocent children to faith and maybe even use it as reason or excuse to violence it turns into evil.

    Faith is like voluntary blindness. Its not smart to believe in something there is no evidence of existing. I could believe in god immediately if there was reason to.
    But god is logical paradox and we are yet to find the reason.
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    (Original post by Emilia1320)
    Faith is not a good thing. As long as individual keeps it on themselves its neutral thing at best. When they start to try to convert others, raise their innocent children to faith and maybe even use it as reason or excuse to violence it turns into evil.

    Faith is like voluntary blindness. Its not smart to believe in something there is no evidence of existing. I could believe in god immediately if there was reason to.
    But god is logical paradox and we are yet to find the reason.

    Well GOD exists whether atheists like it or not. it doesnt matter how bad some religious people act, God exists and atheists who bash religion and religious people are despicable. Most atheists lack morals and values and are obsessed in trying to prove GOD does not exist. Atheists make society decay.
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    (Original post by slade p)
    Well GOD exists whether atheists like it or not. it doesnt matter how bad some religious people act, God exists and atheists who bash religion and religious people are despicable. Most atheists lack morals and values and are obsessed in trying to prove GOD does not exist. Atheists make society decay.
    If god exists sure you have evidence for that? And sure you will share the evidence with us?
    Or if you dont have evidence you sure can still tell why is god any more likely than dragons, santa Claus or elfs?

    You propably can also link an article or study that says religious people are more moral than atheists.
    Here, have one that says exact opposite:

    http://www.economist.com/news/scienc...ed/matthew2239
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    (Original post by Emilia1320)
    If god exists sure you have evidence for that? And sure you will share the evidence with us?
    Or if you dont have evidence you sure can still tell why is god any more likely than dragons, santa Claus or elfs?

    You propably can also link an article or study that says religious people are more moral than atheists.
    Here, have one that says exact opposite:

    http://www.economist.com/news/scienc...ed/matthew2239
    Depends how you define Santa, Elves and Dragons. Is Santa a normal bloke with magic dust or a magic man? Are elves and Dragons magic creatures or normal creatures?

    As for the recent study, here's something to think about;

    'The study is already prompting head scratching over how it squares with similar studies of adults. Azim Shariff, a psychologist at the University of Oregon in Eugene, says it contrasts with his analysis that, taken as a whole, previous research found no overall effect of religion on adults faced with these kind of moral tests.

    “It doesn’t fit in easily with what’s been out there so far. So I’ve got to do some thinking—other people have got to do some thinking—with how it does fit,” says Shariff, who praised the scale and depth of the study. He suggested the new findings could reflect a developmental stage for children, producing different results than for adults. He also noted that such controlled tests might not fully capture how people behave in daily life.'

    http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-beh...-more-generous



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    (Original post by driftawaay)
    If I could eradicate one thing from this planet, it would be religion. It is the root of all evil.
    If I could eradicate one thing from this planet, it would be irreligion. It is the root of all evil.

    Do you not find this offensive? It has become acceptable to mock religious people, but if you offend atheists they get all annoyed.
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    (Original post by hoping4Astars)
    If I could eradicate one thing from this planet, it would be irreligion. It is the root of all evil.

    Do you not find this offensive? It has become acceptable to mock religious people, but if you offend atheists they get all annoyed.
    Yeah, I am gonna go and cry in a corner right now. Maybe even blow up some people/skyscrapers out of frustration.
 
 
 
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