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    (Original post by maisieaa)
    Benefits should be less money. I know people on benefits happy on them and with no intention of looking for a job, it makes me completely sick! Job seeker's allowance should be the bare minimum, it should be almost impossible to live off.
    Er... it already is. It's about ten pounds a day. What are you on about?

    (Original post by Tiger Rag)
    Photography as someone who is severely colourblind and partially sighted? lol ok
    You could invent "Impressionist" photography? (although I suspect that's already been done).

    I'd like to make a statment here :

    If I'm working, for 35,000 or 45,000 a year, you know a decent enough wage, I'm more than happy to pay tax, and I'm more than happy to contribute towards the survival of those without jobs, whether they're "lazy" or not. I know which position I'd rather be in, and it ain't the jobless one. I don't want to be the complete C U next Tuesday who moans about contributing towards this, and then by accident some disabled person doesn't get their money. You have to be an utterly ignorant brainless heartless idiot to think that way IMHO.
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    (Original post by Bourdain)
    that money isn't 'lost'

    it goes to jobs, wages, capital investment. we should be lowering taxes and allowing private enterprise to be even more successful. this is the only way to create wealth and will boost the standard of living across the entire country
    i run a business and yet i have to disagree with you and before you ask my tax bill is more than the minimum wage this year you pay wages after tax and well i don't need more success i mean i am buying a 300c the schweizer not the Chrysler in a couple of years
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    (Original post by stargirl63)
    Tax evasion, even though it's a bigger impact on society than benefit fraud, tax evasion seems to be more moral (is that the right word?) than benefit fraud. Reason being tax evasion is fighting for what you have earned, whereas benefit fraud is essentially theft.

    I guess you can argue that tax evasion is theft from the government and from those who need it. (But how much of what we tax genuinely goes to those who need it.)

    I think the thing that annoys me is that benefit fraud has a high level of "self-entitlement". Those frauding genuinely believe that life is one big free ride.

    I just feel like we are all capable of something. There are people out there with illnesses,wheelchairs etc who still go about doing their daily activities. If you can't stand for long periods of time, find a sitting down job, if you can't work with people find a job that's more individual, if you can't commute then work from home, if you can't find a job...volunteer! There's always an option or a way of participating somehow in society.
    I cant see how it can be more moral to withhold money needed for the NHS, police etc, society itself is propped up by these sorts of income as a government has no power to make money for itself and thus relies on tax to keep society functioning. If everyone decided to protect their assets in this manner then the structures by which they make their assets would collapse. At a simplistic level nobody would buy anything because there would be no police so people would just steal it. How much goes to those who need it is not a factor in the moral argument, after all by the same logic our taxes pay MP's so why shouldnt we claim what we dont deserve?

    Most people dont feel entitled, they feel like they can get away with it. Entitlement tends to be the preserve of those with money.

    I dread that world, whilst people should undeniably contribute there has to be concessions for the less able. I know an anemic person and their illness isnt considered good enough to claim however they cannot run their household because they return from work so tired they sleep until they go back the next day. What sort of existence is that? Their entire life is work. I dont disagree we should encourage people contributing however they can but it is important to be mindful of limitations by practicality that go beyond the simple theory of 'people are in a wheelchair they can do sitting down jobs'. Quite rightly too a lot of lower class or less economically well off believe that society does them little favours (as shown somewhat by tax evasion) why should they contribute.

    Even ignoring that whilst contributions are important we shouldnt expect people to debase themselves on the altar of greater good.
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    (Original post by john2054)
    I consider myself intelligent, and in the process of completing my education, yet i'm still on benefits, so how does that work out??
    Not all of course there are other factors but my point if is x is valued and earns income then the person with x will earn said income. Intelligence is valued as it earns money (there are other sorts of intelligence but these are not what our academic system concerns itself with) as the ability to do so (degrees etc) is how we quantify intelligence therefore in general those with these traits which we label 'intelligence' move up the classes by virtue of possessing a valued commodity.
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    In principal I do agree that we shouldn't be funding the lifestyle of the feckless and workshy.
    But what do you do with these people? You can't just ask them to not exist.
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    As an additional rate tax payer I am more than happy to pay more towards welfare than to make cuts there ...
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    (Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
    I cant see how it can be more moral to withhold money needed for the NHS, police etc, society itself is propped up by these sorts of income as a government has no power to make money for itself and thus relies on tax to keep society functioning. If everyone decided to protect their assets in this manner then the structures by which they make their assets would collapse. At a simplistic level nobody would buy anything because there would be no police so people would just steal it. How much goes to those who need it is not a factor in the moral argument, after all by the same logic our taxes pay MP's so why shouldnt we claim what we dont deserve?

    Most people dont feel entitled, they feel like they can get away with it. Entitlement tends to be the preserve of those with money.

    I dread that world, whilst people should undeniably contribute there has to be concessions for the less able. I know an anemic person and their illness isnt considered good enough to claim however they cannot run their household because they return from work so tired they sleep until they go back the next day. What sort of existence is that? Their entire life is work. I dont disagree we should encourage people contributing however they can but it is important to be mindful of limitations by practicality that go beyond the simple theory of 'people are in a wheelchair they can do sitting down jobs'. Quite rightly too a lot of lower class or less economically well off believe that society does them little favours (as shown somewhat by tax evasion) why should they contribute.

    Even ignoring that whilst contributions are important we shouldnt expect people to debase themselves on the altar of greater good.
    I think it's also useful to note that as most employers expect applicants to have had a previous job and most jobs that don't ask for experience require some form of manual labour that someone who uses a wheelchair might not be able to do (retail work, cafe/restaurant work, cleaning). Then the reduced number of jobs that someone can apply for when there's already loads more people unemployed than vacancies will definitely mean it's harder to get any job. And that's ignoring the illegal but very real discrimination that means a lot of employers won't hire a disabled person.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    You do realise there are 2,000,000 unemployed (massaged government figures) and 750,000 jobs (also massaged government figures).

    That's the bottom line: not even a Tory chancellor can make maths like that work. People in wheelchairs or who cannot for whatever reason do half of the jobs that are around are obviously at the back of the queue too.

    I would also like to see you fill in a form for any of these benefits. It is thought that long-term benefit claimants have more knowledge of the system than lawyers trained specifically in that area. And do you have any idea of how draconian the JSA system is these days? You have to apply for 20 jobs a week when in your average small town you'd be lucky to see that many in a month.
    I have worked in the sector. The idea that the long-term unemployed know the system better than lawyers is laughable. Firstly, the rules are not overly complex if you live by them day to day (which both claimants and JC+ staff do). Most can understand them. Secondly, the people who are long-term unemployed are not sufficiently intellectual to have advantage in knowledge of the system over JC+ staff, never mind lawyers. This is because most of them don't possess the intellect required to spell cat. This lie that people propagate is put in place so they can tell themselves that long-term claimants are some manipulative sophists—it is there only to create hostility and aversion to claimants, as if they live in a system which only they can understand. It's a pernicious lie.

    Whilst I understand you probably do not promote the connotations of that statement, the mendacious connotations nevertheless have to be nipped in the bud.
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    (Original post by john2054)
    I consider myself intelligent, and in the process of completing my education, yet i'm still on benefits, so how does that work out??

    When I was first looking for work I was told I was overqualified for most jobs yet I left school without A Levels.

    (I was however eminently well qualified for the civil service but left after a month.)

    In the end to get a job I only mentioned 2 qualifications one of which was geography and pretended I was really thick at interviews.

    And that's how I ended up as a tube driver.



    Not sure if that's any help.
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    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    I think it's also useful to note that as most employers expect applicants to have had a previous job and most jobs that don't ask for experience require some form of manual labour that someone who uses a wheelchair might not be able to do (retail work, cafe/restaurant work, cleaning). Then the reduced number of jobs that someone can apply for when there's already loads more people unemployed than vacancies will definitely mean it's harder to get any job. And that's ignoring the illegal but very real discrimination that means a lot of employers won't hire a disabled person.
    It's not illegal to discriminate against disabled people in recruitment only once they're employed.

    My partner has written letters from employers stating that the only reason for not employing him was because he's a wheelchair user. The Disability Rights Commission (this was before the EA2010 merging of equality bodies was implemented) said that there was nothing illegal about what they had said or done.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    It's not illegal to discriminate against disabled people in recruitment only once they're employed.
    Actually, it is. Doesn't prevent companies from doing it though.
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    (Original post by Tiger Rag)
    Actually, it is. Doesn't prevent companies from doing it though.
    Employers can't discriminate in the recruitment process (reasonable adjustments for interviews and tests) but they can state outright that they're rejecing an applicant due to their disability or their unwillingness to put in place reasonable adjustments to employ an applicant without fear of prosecution.

    We had a shed load of evidence and the DRC weren't willing to prosecute or pursue the matter. So unless you have the funds to pursue a civil case privately employers know they can discriminate without repercussions.
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    (Original post by Gryffindorian)
    You have such a bleak, and quite frankly limited, perspective.

    So you are one of those people who thinks that poverty is the fault of the individual suffering it? Not systematic inequality?
    I think poverty is due to systematic inequality, 100% .

    But that's the way the world works.

    It's survival of the fittest and those who are educated, those who are healthy, those who are able, they will prosper. That's not anyone's fault, that's just how it is. Call it destiny, fate, whatever.
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    (Original post by stargirl63)
    I think poverty is due to systematic inequality, 100% .

    But that's the way the world works.

    It's survival of the fittest and those who are educated, those who are healthy, those who are able, they will prosper. That's not anyone's fault, that's just how it is. Call it destiny, fate, whatever.
    I assume you'd be saying the same if it was your relative? I didn't ask to be born disabled. Nor did I ask for the nhs to completely **** up my care as a child which has left me with a brain injury. I'm "lucky" that's only left me with me with memory issues and chronic sensitivity to light.
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    (Original post by Tiger Rag)
    I assume you'd be saying the same if it was your relative? I didn't ask to be born disabled. Nor did I ask for the nhs to completely **** up my care as a child which has left me with a brain injury. I'm "lucky" that's only left me with me with memory issues and chronic sensitivity to light.
    I have had relatives die from diseases etc, yes it's sad. If it's a relative, friend, myself..the point I'm trying to make is that is the way the world works. It's not fair, it's not great...but it's life. It's not my fault some are born more able than others, speak to God about that.
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    (Original post by stargirl63)
    I think poverty is due to systematic inequality, 100% .

    But that's the way the world works.

    It's survival of the fittest and those who are educated, those who are healthy, those who are able, they will prosper. That's not anyone's fault, that's just how it is. Call it destiny, fate, whatever.
    So you accept that not everyone has the same opportunities but you want to treat the people who happen to not have the same privileges as you like ****. We don't have to accept oppression. If EVERYONE worked together we could create a more equal society. Yes, people will still be disabled. Yes, people will still be suited to different jobs. But together we can make a difference. But people like you don't want to lose your privilege.

    At first I thought you didn't understand that a lot of the things that help people achieve are entirely random and not due to that person's effort and you were just ignorant. But now I realise you do know that not everyone has the same chances and people don't choose their oppression but you think that's how it should be. And that makes you EVIL.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    It's not illegal to discriminate against disabled people in recruitment only once they're employed.

    My partner has written letters from employers stating that the only reason for not employing him was because he's a wheelchair user. The Disability Rights Commission (this was before the EA2010 merging of equality bodies was implemented) said that there was nothing illegal about what they had said or done.
    It's not illegal if a person's disability means they cannot do the job. But you can't discriminate if their disability wouldn't affect their job or you could put in adjustments to allow them to work.
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    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    It's not illegal if a person's disability means they cannot do the job. But you can't discriminate if their disability wouldn't affect their job or you could put in adjustments to allow them to work.
    You aren't supposed to but the EHRC (and former DRC) are unwilling to prosecute even with evidence. Employers are well aware of this.

    A law that isn't implemented isn't a law.
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    (Original post by stargirl63)
    I have had relatives die from diseases etc, yes it's sad. If it's a relative, friend, myself..the point I'm trying to make is that is the way the world works. It's not fair, it's not great...but it's life. It's not my fault some are born more able than others, speak to God about that.
    I don't know what religion you believe in. But I'm not sure many of them think that you should just not give a **** about people less fortunate than you unless you know them.

    I don't believe in a god. But I know that the Christian god I was raised to belief in cannot be omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and benevolent. There is no way that kind of god would allow the world to have some much horror. Yes, some religious people see suffering as a test. But why would this god who can prevent all the suffering and is supposed to be kind 'test' so unequally?
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    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    So you accept that not everyone has the same opportunities but you want to treat the people who happen to not have the same privileges as you like ****. We don't have to accept oppression. If EVERYONE worked together we could create a more equal society. Yes, people will still be disabled. Yes, people will still be suited to different jobs. But together we can make a difference. But people like you don't want to lose your privilege.

    At first I thought you didn't understand that a lot of the things that help people achieve are entirely random and not due to that person's effort and you were just ignorant. But now I realise you do know that not everyone has the same chances and people don't choose their oppression but you think that's how it should be. And that makes you EVIL.
    Yeah, I was wondering when you were going to realise that I was aware that this process is random. Tbh I was getting a little tired of people telling me "it's not my fault I'm like this, I do this and I try to do that" .. I'm fully aware it's not your fault.

    I don't treat anyone like ****, I just don't particularly take kindly to those who complain about the poor card they are dealt. We could have all got a better hand in life, I could be a size 6, living in Beverly Hills, but this is reality. I have been dealt a card, and so have you, that's not my fault, that's not your fault, that's just what has happened.

    I'm simply logical in my thought process. Unfortunately, logic and emotion don't go well together. I'm here to look after myself, not you or anyone else. If I have privilege, no I don't want to share it. We all have a small time on this earth, I want the experience to be the best it possibly can be, for myself.

    It's great that you want the whole world to be equal, but it's not the case. Accept it, or you're going to live the rest of your life bitter and upset.
 
 
 
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