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TTIP- remain/undecided side please take note and read this watch

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    (Original post by typonaut)


    If we are economically tied to Europe that is because of our proximity to Europe. We cannot change that. Most of the LEAVE camp seem to say that the UK will continue being a major trading partner with the rest of the EU. I think the problem with these statements is that no one can cohesively explain how that is going to happen. I think it is inevitable that if the UK does leave the EU trade with the EU will decline, and we won't be able to make up that decline elsewhere easily.

    So. Japan is next to China, as we are to Europe. Canada has a border with the US, they are the biggest market for them. Australia is tied into the prosperity of the far-east. Does anyone talk about the sheer unrealistic folly of those being sovereign nations? Face it we are trapped in consensus, thoughtless wisdom, and an authoritarian vortex. If in decades we remain and Southern Europe becomes what it obviously will, and we open our border to the Turks and the rest, and Canada and NZ and Japan are making us look like the third world, I will love to see your justifications.

    Choose hope, not fear. vote on philosophies that encompasses longer history, and a longer future, not on the transitory idiotic wisdom of now, which when the tides turn will be proven to utterly silly. Not just that, but sad, as the chance is gone forever.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    So. Japan is next to China, as we are to Europe. Canada has a border with the US, they are the biggest market for them. Australia is tied into the prosperity of the far-east. Does anyone talk about the sheer unrealistic folly of those being sovereign nations? Face it we are trapped in consensus, thoughtless wisdom, and an authoritarian vortex. If in decades we remain and Southern Europe becomes what it obviously will, and we open our border to the Turks and the rest, and Canada and NZ and Japan are making us look like the third world, I will love to see your justifications.

    Choose hope, not fear. vote on philosophies that encompasses longer history, and a longer future, not on the transitory idiotic wisdom of now, which when the tides turn will be proven to utterly silly. Not just that, but sad, as the chance is gone forever.
    'Progressives' like you are willing to gamble with workers right, our economy and our NHS, putting a far right Tory government into power all for an abstracts, false sense of sovereignty.

    enjoy Boris johnson, Michael Gove and Pritti Patel who views workers rights as red tape.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    'Progressives' like you are willing to gamble with workers right, our economy and our NHS, putting a far right Tory government into power all for an abstracts, false sense of sovereignty.

    enjoy Boris johnson, Michael Gove and Pritti Patel who views workers rights as red tape.
    I'm bored of this conversation with you. It is futile, you are voting one way, me the other. nothing will change that.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I'm bored of this conversation with you. It is futile, you are voting one way, me the other. nothing will change that.
    I'm bored of your victim mentality and ashamed that someone who describes themselves as progressive is about to usher in the far right.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I'm bored of your victim mentality and ashamed that someone who describes themselves as progressive is about to usher in the far right.

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    You're the victim, you keep banging on about what evils will be done by our own country without the nice EU to protect us, and have given up on our own future and democracy. Yours is the choice of fear, and despair.

    I don't call myself progressive, I am an economic leftist, and I do not support mass immigration.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You're the victim, you keep banging on about what evils will be done by our own country with the nice EU to protect us, and have given up on our own future and democracy. Yours is the choice of fear, and despair.

    I don't call myself progressive, I am an economic leftist, and I do not support mass immigration.
    I don't think there's a huge conspiracy like you do.

    So you're an economic leftist about to usher in the far right neoliberals?

    And do me a favour with going on about fear. The leave camp specialises in lies and fearmongering.
    I want to protect workers rights, you want to put the far right in charge of them.

    Sickening to see someone on the left link arms with the far right.

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    Italy, Southern Spain, Greece, Turkey, Macedonia. Imagine the future of these countries, even now we have nothing culturally or economically in common. No-one would suggest union with North Africa or the middle east, it will be proven insanity in the future when we are dealing with this never ending mess, all in the name of overall GDP and the size of the single market. In terms of quality of life, GDP per person, overcrowding, and generally not descending into third world chaos, not decimating own communities, which matters more than overall GDP to anyone possessed of something called sanity, we will be trounced by the likes of Canada, NZ and Japan, our own people would be begging to get in as refugees.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Sickening to see someone on the left link arms with the far right.

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    It's sickening to see a supposedly benevolent (left?, not sure what you call yourselves)centrism, conduct pointless wars with money we don't have, put us at risk of terror, open our borders, decimate the white poor and destroy communities with mass immigration, solely used for a wage compressed economy to make the few even more obscenely wealthy while everyone rots and our country is a mere hotel. All made ok by gay marriage or transgender rights, and anyone who is a social conservative or economically to the left of it or who believes in national interests, not civlizational suicide, is a crank.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I don't think there's a huge conspiracy like you do.



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    It's not a huge conspiracy, it doesn't have to be. It's just there are moneyed interests, and there are many other countries and those who are pro-globalisation's interests, and naturally enough, these do not often coincide with ours. I want to look after our national interests, sanity, not utopianism, or inviting the worlds *****yness to our doorstep.
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    Why do you keep talking such utter shite about who I am ushering in?
    a)The EU is no protection, as evidence by their obedience to Obama over TTIP, has this failed to register?
    b)You're basing everything on the next few years, for reasons you have failed to explain, you just keep going on and on about the next few years, as though an entire democratic future where we can shape things is irrelevant. It's as though you've taken the last 20-30 years of politics in this country, admittedly dire, and decided that all our centuries history, uniquely successful and sovereign irrelevant to this debate, and the entire future.

    You are totally ensconced in received wisdom, that of a minute period of time in our history, and for whatever reason, you refuse to see anything else.

    It's utterly barmy to base your decision on the next few years, say that fighting for independence and democracy in the long term is meaningless.
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    Same argument over and over. Priti Patel, Michale Gove, and their evils for a few more years, versus Eurocrats who may be benevolent for the next few years, which obviously trumps my moronic argument of long term independence and an increasing say in our country, (if we are not defeatists that is) vs Autocratic rule and loss of independence for good(which apparently is assumed to be benevolent for all time(how do you know?), and therefore it being self-selecting and unelected, and us not having the choice to boot it out doesn't matter)

    Strange world you live in, but it screams voting by fear to me, and you wouldn't be different to many throughout the world and history. The difference is Britain's supposed to be better, a bastion of liberty admired globally for it's way of life, though if enough anti-patriots and defeatists and authoritarians get their way it's gone for good, only our former colonies will keep the flame burning and be respected the most, and we will applaud and admire them, at times with slavish sycophancy, for their independence and looking out for their nations, while we do the opposite, continuing to go further down the past of some perverse post-imperial loss of self esteem which has plunged us into a spiral of self-disgust and self harming.

    Your choice will lead to a darker UK.
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    (Original post by Tabstercat)
    GMOs are not harmful, labelling is pointless, the current EU regulations on GMOs are unscientific.
    (Original post by L i b)
    Good.

    Completely untrue, however. The idea that GM crops cannot be labelled as such across the United States is not only false, it's nonsense. Since Vermont insisted on compulsory GM labelling in 2014, the looming commencement of their legislation has caused a large number of food companies to impose labelling across the US because they have national supply chains. Huge household names like Campbell's, Kellogg's and Mars have done just that.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b08f57d5d3f393

    Labelling allows consumers to make a choice, GMO companies have so far shown distaste for allowing consuming choice, countering studies showing links to cancer along with the pesticides used in conjunction with them, the potential for destroying vital gut bacteria etc. and when look at such companies track record involving widespread pollution of deadly chemicals, worker deaths, patent abuse, and then you have agent orange.

    These companies simply aren't to be trusted imo, but I am not arguing for a ban, just a choice.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    So it is disingenuous to "guess" that some outcome will happen under one condition, but not under another?
    Well, Ive said mine was a guess, and was highlighting yours was. so thats not disingenous, no.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Same argument over and over. Priti Patel, Michale Gove, and their evils for a few more years, versus Eurocrats who may be benevolent for the next few years, which obviously trumps my moronic argument of long term independence and an increasing say in our country, (if we are not defeatists that is) vs Autocratic rule and loss of independence for good(which apparently is assumed to be benevolent for all time(how do you know?), and therefore it being self-selecting and unelected, and us not having the choice to boot it out doesn't matter)

    Strange world you live in, but it screams voting by fear to me, and you wouldn't be different to many throughout the world and history. The difference is Britain's supposed to be better, a bastion of liberty admired globally for it's way of life, though if enough anti-patriots and defeatists and authoritarians get their way it's gone for good, only our former colonies will keep the flame burning and be respected the most, and we will applaud and admire them, at times with slavish sycophancy, for their independence and looking out for their nations, while we do the opposite, continuing to go further down the past of some perverse post-imperial loss of self esteem which has plunged us into a spiral of self-disgust and self harming.

    Your choice will lead to a darker UK.
    You'd rather be persecuted in a democracy than live happily in an autocracy.

    You're simply a wily idealist. You'd rather have an abstract right to democracy while watching the Tories cripple the poorest and most vulnerable, rather than have some safeguards by less democratic means.

    People like you are why the left loses. People like you put idealism ahead of pragmatism and lead to the likes of Corbyn. It gives the right wing a free run.

    I feel sorry for you. Because you'll quickly see the negative effects of a post Brexit hard right government. You're kidding yourself if you think immigration will come down or that our NHS won't be privatised, even if not by ttip.


    You're a joke, you claim to care about the NHS yet want to put a bunch of fat right butters who want to seek it off in charge of it.

    Im starting to think you deserve Boris johnson. Sickening to watch you link arms with the far right.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You'd rather be persecuted in a democracy than live happily in an autocracy.

    You're simply a wily idealist. You'd rather have an abstract right to democracy while watching the Tories cripple the poorest and most vulnerable, rather than have some safeguards by less democratic means.

    People like you are why the left loses. People like you put idealism ahead of pragmatism and lead to the likes of Corbyn. It gives the right wing a free run.

    I feel sorry for you. Because you'll quickly see the negative effects of a post Brexit hard right government. You're kidding yourself if you think immigration will come down or that our NHS won't be privatised, even if not by ttip.


    You're a joke, you claim to care about the NHS yet want to put a bunch of fat right butters who want to seek it off in charge of it.

    Im starting to think you deserve Boris johnson. Sickening to watch you link arms with the far right.
    Why do you keep claiming to know my political beliefs, you don't. There is no hard right, they all believe in mass immigration, no-one support the death penalty or opposes abortion-there is only a hard right on economics, so powerful a centrist winner is social and economic liberalism, so wrapped up in benevolence as it is. Persecuted? You're obsessed with this nonsense and keep calling Brexit victims, projection I think. As for this nonsense about giving the right a free run, I told you, I'm not a social liberal, I'm an economic leftist, and if all the Democrats or Labour offer is social liberalism plus the same economic policies(Blair was to the right of Thatcher on economics), plus maybe £10 more per week JSA, frankly, I couldn't care less for them and don't see them as any key governing force to protect the country, particularly as the pendulum is irrefutable, people do always swing back and get sick of governments, the idea you have to have the same economics for it to swing back to Labour is actually false, it's more wisdom trapped very much in the present, Brown was a neoliberal and got pilloried, it depends on the personality, the period in government et al.

    But, despite all of this, you are still missing the huge, central point, still banging on about the next few years of Tory government, I have told you multiple times, if you are basing your vote on the entrie future of out democracy and sovereignty on two years of a government, you don't have much of a right to call other people idiotic or suicidal-there are arguments for Brexit that I respect, but I can gaurentee you, I will never ever vote on what you are espousing...it simply doesn't feature in my decision, the longer term does. The only thing pitiable is you vote based on fear and a 3 year timespan, and you think the colour of a rosette means some sacred protections from the things that basically the entire political class(besides those pilloried by them and the media-Corbyn, Galloway, Farage)believe.

    It seems that you vote on a three year timescale and 'pragmatism' because Calais is 21 miles from Kent. Would you consider it an abstract irrelevance if we were voting to be/or not be the 51st state?
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    (Original post by otester)
    Labelling allows consumers to make a choice
    Perhaps they do. However, as the US Food and Drug Administration have pointed out, it "was not aware of any information showing that bioengineered foods differ from other foods in any meaningful or uniform way". Therefore it's something of a non-choice. Because they're not.

    GMO companies have so far shown distaste for allowing consuming choice, countering studies showing links to cancer along with the pesticides used in conjunction with them, the potential for destroying vital gut bacteria etc. and when look at such companies track record involving widespread pollution of deadly chemicals, worker deaths, patent abuse, and then you have agent orange.
    This is conspiracy theorism that you're spouting here. You shift away from scientific evidence - which for all practical purposes universally shows that these foods are safe - to a question of "trust". Fundamentally I think you know you can't win the scientific argument on this one.

    Let's however look at the other side of the coin: fearmongers who, throughout the ages, have told us - with no scientific basis - a lot of very damaging things. How about we investigate the claims of those who oppose vaccinations despite a scientific consensus they do not cause autism as is claimed? Or what about those who tell Africans that condoms do not prevent HIV transmission? If you think this is less serious, kindly consider the effects of GM crops on improving the food supply in some of the most disadvantaged countries in the world.

    These companies simply aren't to be trusted imo, but I am not arguing for a ban, just a choice.
    A compulsory labelling regime, presumably? Not really just arguing for a choice there - because at the moment, producers have a choice to label if they want. People have every entitlement to buy or not to buy as they see fit.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Perhaps they do. However, as the US Food and Drug Administration have pointed out, it "was not aware of any information showing that bioengineered foods differ from other foods in any meaningful or uniform way". Therefore it's something of a non-choice. Because they're not.



    This is conspiracy theorism that you're spouting here. You shift away from scientific evidence - which for all practical purposes universally shows that these foods are safe - to a question of "trust". Fundamentally I think you know you can't win the scientific argument on this one.
    It really comes down to whether you trust the US government and Monsanto, I don't, so I'd rather opt out, remember, if I am wrong, I paid a little bit more for veggies, if I am right, you are potentially exposing yourself to carcinogens and harm to your gut bacteria.

    Throughout history there tends to be a time lag between unofficial recognition of dangerous substances and the official recognition and a lot of damage tends to be done between then, whether its radioactive materials, tobacco, asbestos, PCB's or more recently processed meats.

    (Original post by L i b)
    A compulsory labelling regime, presumably? Not really just arguing for a choice there - because at the moment, producers have a choice to label if they want. People have every entitlement to buy or not to buy as they see fit.
    No to compulsion either way.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You'd rather be persecuted in a democracy than live happily in an autocracy.

    You're simply a wily idealist.
    .
    And Brexit are victims? You talk of persecution, not me. Secondly, I will never, ever be happy in an autocracy, for reasons that someone trapped in your mindset will never understand. If you ever taste the darkness of authoritarianism, you might get it.

    Wily idealism is quite a compliment. It sounds almost how you would describe Machiavelli. You know, he did believe in certain measures but only to preserve the national interest. Our political class seem like a bunch of smug, intellectually arrogant sixth formers who read 'The Prince', and decided machiavellianism was ruining your own country and turning it into a valueless cesspit for a pat on the back.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    And Brexit are victims? You talk of persecution, not me. Secondly, I will never, ever be happy in an autocracy, for reasons that someone trapped in your mindset will never understand. If you ever taste the darkness of authoritarianism, you might get it.

    Wily idealism is quite a compliment. It sounds almost how you would describe Machiavelli. You know, he did believe in certain measures but only to preserve the national interest. Our political class seem like a bunch of smug, intellectually arrogant sixth formers who read 'The Prince', and decided machiavellianism was ruining your own country and turning it into a valueless cesspit for a pat on the back.
    We're heading out and will soon be led by Boris Johnson. Your dream of 'freedom' will hand a very right wing neoliberal Tory government more power- the very thing you claim to oppose.

    And you're naive if you think for one second that they'd actually reduce immigration.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    And you're naive if you think for one second that they'd actually reduce immigration.
    Says the man who thinks top of his priorities list is losing the election...

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