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    (Original post by MildredMalone)
    Please reiterate what your alternative is, because I must have missed it
    Islam isn't the initial cause of these things. Radicalisation occurs due to corruption, hatred, bigotry and fear - all of which manifest in Middle Eastern countries as a result of conflict (ie the Arab Spring and other wars) and corrupt regimes.

    Islam is the veil being which these people justify their actions, but its not the trigger which causes them to suddenly decide to attack foreigners or foreign cities.
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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    Since when is criticism hate speech? There's a huge difference educate yourself on it.

    I'm a xenophobe? Oh dear I'm going to cry myself to sleep now! I'm going to just show how xenophobic I am now

    loveleest YaliaV Josb Good bloke TercioOfParma The_Opinion Guys can you please give me examples of when I've been xenophobic? This deluded idiot thinks I'm one.
    (Original post by mariachi)
    don't bother answering - we can continue the discussion without feeding uselessly offensive and insulting trolls

    in fact, criticising Islam has the same intellectual dignity and purpose implied by criticism of communism, or of Christianity, or of any other ideology which has a social and political dimension

    there are millions and millions of Christians (and even quite a few communists, still). Should we stop criticising Stalin's crimes, or the Inquisition, or even just the Castro brothers, just because some of our co-citizens might be offended ?

    agreed, Islamic terrorism in the West actively involves a small minority of Muslims only (some more may agree with it, or avoid explicit condemnation, but are not willing to act) - but violent Islam (in different forms) is present in many, many countries. So, discussing and criticising Islam is perfectly appropriate

    It is absurd to claim that we should stop criticising Islam for what we perceive as being its dark elements, which do pose a threat to our democratic, secular societies. And, in fact, it's not only about violence and terrorism : it's about many, many other points

    best
    I agree. Honestly, the cries of racism/xenophobia just means that he is not willing to address the rational argument. Labelling someone like that means that the person automatically "wins" the argument, whether the label is warranted or not.

    Now Muslims are a protected class that can't be criticised - that's very dangerous indeed. Only a small percentage of Muslims may be violent, but it's clear that "extremists" aren't all that rare and even many "moderate" Muslims here are in favour of Sharia Law. I think Islam is barbaric and it belongs in the distant past.
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    (Original post by HanSoloLuck)
    Then didn't say hopefully, I did, probably could have worded it a bit more clearly, I was paraphrasing with commentary. You should read the article, it's laughable reasoning that their sheep can parrot off when presented with the facts.

    I'd also point out that the demographic energy need only exist for a generation or two anyway for them to reach a majority by 2050, hence why it's so close. So it wouldn't matter if they stop having as many children after a few generations away, which they probably wont.

    It's a fertility Jihad and it has been done many times before with great success by Muslims, they have children at younger ages and they have more of them. By the time a an average European of today becomes mother of her 1 child the Muslim equivalent is a mother of 3 and a grandmother of 9.
    A good way to tackle this would be to make it a condition of immigration to the UK that they cannot move to an area which has a large Islamic population, thus discouraging the further growth of ghettos.

    As for their fertility, for the ones who are already here we should compel their religious schools to follow all secular standards so that their children are more likely to convert to sanity and integrate with the majority culture.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    A good way to tackle this would be to make it a condition of immigration to the UK that they cannot move to an area which has a large Islamic population, thus discouraging the further growth of ghettos.
    As long as my village isn't on the list of possible locations


    A good way to decide who to allow in could be asking them to draw Muhammed. If they refuse, they take their religion too seriously, and might hold on to dangerous ideas.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    in my view, this is the main point

    personally, I oppose Islam's social and political agenda. As simple as that
    Exactly. Many Muslims are personally offended by any opposition to the ideas and beliefs of Islam and say that you are not permitted to oppose those beliefs without attracting the label of bigot/Islamophobe. That is an unacceptable position; it is an attempt to bully people into not criticising it.

    there are many elements in Islam which I oppose (too many to list them here). This has absolutely nothing to do with hating Muslims, or Arabs, or South Asians
    Absolutely. Any person of any race whatsoever who adheres to the values I believe in (secularism, humanism, empiricism etc) will have my respect. Any person of whatever race who adheres to my particular sort of atheistic, anti-theist, anti-fascist disposition will be treated with fraternal affection. I have a Saudi friend who is a very strong anti-theist; he loves Hitch and Dawkins, speaks out against religion (at great personal risk to himself). Our fraternal affection is based on shared ideas, race is completely irrelevant to that. And I'd wager that pretty much everyone in the anti-theist movement would react the same way to a fellow anti-theist/Hitch fan who was Arab or African or Asian or whatever. Our connection to one another completely transcends petty considerations like race; that in itself demonstrates the falsity of the Islamic accusations
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    A good way to tackle this would be to make it a condition of immigration to the UK that they cannot move to an area which has a large Islamic population, thus discouraging the further growth of ghettos.

    As for their fertility, for the ones who are already here we should compel their religious schools to follow all secular standards so that their children are more likely to convert to sanity and integrate with the majority culture.
    Actually I think changing the test for settling in the UK would be better. Currently it asks questions like what day is saint Patrick's day (who cares) and should instead ask questions on more British values like do you consider men equal to women, should we stone homosexuals, is it ok to smoke pot, etc. You should also have to have decent standard of English and education (or should receive standard education and get qualifications that enable you to get a job).

    I also think faith schools should be banned, and that these after school religious colleges should be banned or at the very least limited to 1hr / day or less. I have Muslim friends who spent 4-9 everyday at Islamic faith colleges and most of the weekend too. And it wasn't voluntary.

    And personally I don't think you should be allowed to wear religious dress like the niqab until you are 16 or 18 when you are old enough to make these choices for yourself.

    There should also be MUCH better religious education in schools and open debate should be encouraged. In science our teachers had to be extremely careful teaching evolution in case they offended anyone who believes otherwise. Get real, england.
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    (Original post by swiss_cheese)
    meanwhile 300 Muslims die in Baghdad because of terrorism, but you're getting all teary about something as small as this? certainly just because it fits your islamphobic (note I say islamphobic as fear of Islam, not islamophobia) agenda.
    This happened over 2 weeks ago and there were multiple threads on it. Why is it relevant to this particular thread? How can you accuse OP of being 'Islamophobic' for simply informing us of the event?
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    The typical "Muslims are the real victims here" card.
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    (Original post by NickLCFC)
    This happened over 2 weeks ago and there were multiple threads on it. Why is it relevant to this particular thread? How can you accuse OP of being 'Islamophobic' for simply informing us of the event?
    Also, the reason those Muslims died in Baghdad is because of Islam. They were killed because of an internal dispute between Muslims about which Islam is the true Islam. We are not to blame for that

    And as you say, it is dishonest for them to bring up that tragic event from a few weeks ago on this thread. It's random, and seems dishonest
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    Actually I think changing the test for settling in the UK would be better. Currently it asks questions like what day is saint Patrick's day (who cares) and should instead ask questions on more British values like do you consider men equal to women, should we stone homosexuals, is it ok to smoke pot, etc. You should also have to have decent standard of English and education (or should receive standard education and get qualifications that enable you to get a job).

    I also think faith schools should be banned, and that these after school religious colleges should be banned. I have Muslim friends who spent 4-9 everyday at Islamic faith colleges and most of the weekend too. And it wasn't voluntary.

    And personally I don't think you should be allowed to wear religious dress like the niqab until you are 16 or 18 when you are old enough to make these choices for yourself.

    There should also be MUCH better religious education in schools and open debate should be encouraged. In science our teachers had to be extremely careful teaching evolution in case they offended anyone who believes otherwise. Get real, england.
    I agree on most everything you wrote

    on criticising Islam : we have of course to use a grain of salt

    there is no point (beyond the possible serious consequences) in approaching a group of Muslims, and starting to offend people claiming that Muhammad was a pedophile, that most Muslims develop into violent wife-beaters and terrorists etc

    however, in a setting specifically dedicated to discussion, whether debating moral values, or agendas for our social/political development, it is absurd to give Islam any more respect than we would give Christianity, or Communism, or Scientology, or any other religious/social/political theory and practice

    in discussing about Islam, I have one specific problem : while of course my instinct would lead me to support Muslim "moderates", those who present "Islam with a human face", I have to admit that, on the basis of the most logical interpretations, of classical commentaries, and of Islamic history, the fundies have quite often very, very good arguments - so, intellectual honesty and political expediency would be in sharp contrast...

    I still don't know how to deal with this problem
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    (Original post by MildredMalone)
    As long as my village isn't on the list of possible locations

    A good way to decide who to allow in could be asking them to draw Muhammed. If they refuse, they take their religion too seriously, and might hold on to dangerous ideas.
    Hehe I like that idea. In principle I can't support but I did laugh
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    (Original post by YaliaV)
    Only a small percentage of Muslims may be violent, but it's clear that "extremists" aren't all that rare and even many "moderate" Muslims here are in favour of Sharia Law. I think Islam is barbaric and it belongs in the distant past.
    In my experience many "moderate" Muslims take a "Well they had it coming because of Western imperialism / Islamophobia" whenever a terrorist attack happens. They say things like, "Well, now they know what Palestinians/Afghans/Iraqis feel like".

    It's very much a mindset that justifies and agrees with the grievances that the terrorists themselves cite. And belief in those grievances is almost always the first step in the path that leads to suicide bombing when you read accounts about how these people got started. The grievance/victimhood culture is the swamp in which the bacteria of jihadism thrives
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    OK, on the original post

    I think that the part in the OP about "stabbed because dressing immodestly" is still unconfirmed

    in reality, the motives for the aggression are still not known, as declared by the prosecutor dealing with the case

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36837108

    so, best to wait for more information
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    Reported in the guardian too, but they will not admit he is a muslim, and even apologise for him...:congrats:

    What a PC New Labour Rag, this has become under Viner, and her predecessor. Its got NOTHING to do with the left.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-resort-france
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    (Original post by NickLCFC)
    This happened over 2 weeks ago and there were multiple threads on it. Why is it relevant to this particular thread? How can you accuse OP of being 'Islamophobic' for simply informing us of the event?
    .
    Spoiler:
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    The typical "Muslims are the real victims here" card.
    You're another of the TSR Islam bashers, when I saw NickLCFC quoting me I can't tell you I expected anything other than this.
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    (Original post by YaliaV)
    I agree. Honestly, the cries of racism/xenophobia just means that he is not willing to address the rational argument. Labelling someone like that means that the person automatically "wins" the argument, whether the label is warranted or not.Now Muslims are a protected class that can't be criticised - that's very dangerous indeed. Only a small percentage of Muslims may be violent, but it's clear that "extremists" aren't all that rare and even many "moderate" Muslims here are in favour of Sharia Law. I think Islam is barbaric and it belongs in the distant past.
    Lol this is pure BS. You are literally twisting my words so much, its unreal.

    Firstly, I want to take a moment to congratulate your failed attempted use of 'sharia law' as a negative term. Sharia law literally means religious law, and its as vague as that. Nowhere does Islam say Sharia Law = killing gays and chopping limbs off, Sharia Law is literally open to interpretation - one of the many things you Islam-bashers are uneducated on. Lmfao.

    All I am saying is that Islam isn't the singular cause for these incidents, so you people gallivanting around blaming Islam and hating on it is doing ****all to help the situation and you're basically contributing towards radicalisation by making normal Muslims feel segregated.
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    (Original post by swiss_cheese)
    You're another of the TSR Islam bashers, when I saw NickLCFC quoting me I can't tell you I expected anything other than this.
    And what exactly is the problem with 'bashing' Islam?
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    (Original post by NickLCFC)
    And what exactly is the problem with 'bashing' Islam?
    In the context of terror attacks, its unwarranted, as with almost every single case of foreign nationals committing these atrocities, they are binge-drinkers / drug-users and generally irreligious - but Islam is still to blame apparently. Their actual motive can be sourced to hatred which derives from conflict and corruption - both of which are ripe in the Middle East.

    Alongside the fact that going around hating on Islam by yelling "religion of peace" and striking off women's burkas is actually encouraging Muslims to feel segregated and therefore become radicalised.
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    So informing people about a stabbing in France is Islamophobic? Great logic there
    Same logic from Cologne and Rotherham.
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    And what is wrong with reminding people of the threat that Islamic terrorism poses to Western society? And it's bigoted to tell people the name of an attacker?
    (Original post by Huffington Post)
    According to the FBI, 94% of terrorist attacks carried out in the United States from 1980 to 2005 have been by non-Muslims. This means that an American terrorist suspect is over nine times more likely to be a non-Muslim than a Muslim.
    Islamic Terrorism is no growing threat, especially in the US. I'd like to add that less than 2% of terrorism has been committed by Muslims.

    The threat of Muslims, especially in the media, has been very exaggerated.

    According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. These were not terrorists who happened to be Jews; rather, they were extremist Jews who committed acts of terrorism based on their religious passions, just like Al-Qaeda and company.
    Studies have shown that Jewish terrorism is much more common than Islamic. It is totally wrong to paint all Jews with the same the brush and call them a threat.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-mus...merica/5333619


    I think you are very familiar with 'The Religion Of Peace' website. I'll save you the trouble and try to look for a counter argument for you.

    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/p...4-percent.aspx

    This site actually attempts to discredit the FBI and their data. I also tried to get onto the study they linked to write their (uninformed and bigoted) article. First time I did it, I was sent to an ad page and the second time I clicked on the link I was sent to a similar anti-Muslims/Islam page.

    This site also classed the death of a Pakistani Women in the hands of her brother as an Islamic terrorist attack carried out by 'religious conservatives'. She died because her deranged, disgusting brother wanted her dead due to wanting to preserve 'honour'.
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    (Original post by swiss_cheese)
    In the context of terror attacks, its unwarranted, as with almost every single case of foreign nationals committing these atrocities, they are binge-drinkers / drug-users and generally irreligious - but Islam is still to blame apparently. Their actual motive can be sourced to hatred which derives from conflict and corruption - both of which are ripe in the Middle East.

    Alongside the fact that going around hating on Islam by yelling "religion of peace" and striking off women's burkas is actually encouraging Muslims to feel segregated and therefore become radicalised.
    In the context of SOME terror attacks, it can be unwarranted. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with general criticism (or 'bashing') of Islam and its principles.
 
 
 
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