Muslim and starting to doubt my religion

Announcements
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    Now you are just equivocating.
    Marriage to an 8 year old girl can never be consensual.
    Of course it can't because 8 year olds cannot give valid consent at their age.

    (Original post by QE2)
    Your post #132 states that it can be consensual.

    But It can never be consensual because an 8 year old child will always be seen as ignorant and incompetent when it comes to life impacting decisions. The parent should know that full well. If they don't then that's not Islam's problem.

    That post was merely just a simple way of dismissing forced marriages in general.

    Uneducated muslims fail to see simple human ethics and are unable to understand this when they forcefully marry off their children in the eastern parts of the world. I guarantee if more muslims where educated about their religion in the middle east, you'd be seeing a sharp reduction in the cases of forced marriage. The problem stems from regressive cultural attitudes being dissolved into religion.

    A Muslim from the west certainly does have a different view on islamic beliefs than a muslim from the middle east. You cannot deny that.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I would say you need to research what things you have listed about islam before jumping into conclusions. Firstly, everything you find on the internet is not always the truth, many people like to take an extreame point of view on things when that is totally not what islam portrays. There are many extreamist islamic groups who believe that women are lower than men etc. However this is not the case, as when a muslim woman marries a man she completes half of his deen. Also when a muslim girl is born in a household, she becomes the reason for her father to enter paradise. When she becomes a mother paradise lies beneath her feet. This is the status of women in islam. I hope you finally realise that islam does not teach inequality between men and women. i pray that you never feel like this again towards islam & inshallah allah guides you to the right path.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    You are fundamentally contradicting yourself here.

    If you consider the Quran to be perfect and timeless, then by definition, you consider using slaves for sex as perfect and timeless.

    If you consider that using slaves for sex is unacceptable today, then you do not consider the Quran to be perfect and timeless.
    So smoking legalized weed is permissable but do i believe it's acceptable? No - because it's simply my choice not to smoke weed regardless of it being acceptable or not.
    Do you see what i mean?
    Because something is acceptable doesn't mean i will condone it.

    The same way it is written as acceptable/permissable for slaves to be taken for war doesn't mean i will take them.
    And no offece but who are you to sit there and tell me what Allah's (swt) morals are??
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mercuryman)
    EDIT:
    Note to reader: QE2 obviously manipulates the points you make and throws them against you to prove you wrong.
    Correct. That is how debate works!
    You make a point, and I take that point and use it to demonstrate why you are wrong.

    I've made it clear that islam doesn't allow marriages to take place just because a guy and a girl have reached puberty.
    No you haven't. Islam clearly allows marrige to a girl who has reached puberty.
    I am not claiming that it is compulsory, or that it always happens. Only that it is permitted.
    https://islamqa.info/en/12708
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    Correct. That is how debate works!
    You make a point, and I take that point and use it to demonstrate why you are wrong...without acknowledging the context and placement of that point made in that argument, right?
    :rolleyes:

    Good day.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    First of all, your spirituality (or lack of) is something that you can only truly explore on your own. Nobody can tell you what to eventually believe or not believe, because regardless, your mind, heart and gut will follow whatever it wants too. Be open-minded and look for the TRUTH. There is absolutely no point even acknowledging the intellectual cowards who tell you to go back to religion, and pray more. That isn't going to satisfy your questions. Don't be afraid to be critical and decisive. At the end of the day, you have one life (that is absolutely guaranteed) and you don't want to squander that on believing something that isn't satisfying morally or intellectually. At the same time, gut and heart are important, maybe as important as your logical reasoning, let that guide you to your truth/or whatever you find fulfilling. I am an ex-Muslim, who was incredibly devout, but I realised that I should be loyal to finding the truth, not finding the truth in Islam at all costs. I came to the conclusion, based on my own moral compass, that Islam was immoral by todays standards, that the Islamic depiction of God wasn't something I was comfortable believing in, nor did I think the attributes ascribed to that God were befitting of an all-wise, all-powerful creator. As you can tell, I still believe in a God, but I acknowledge that we probably will never have any empirical evidence to verify the existence of a creator or not, so I'm agnostic.
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mercuryman)
    No, because to not give a response is not the same as 'I give consent'.

    That's basically a 'I don't feel It's right engaging in something I have no knowledge of' AKA I'm clueless AKA I don't give my consent.

    Do you think all the people that didn't vote in the EU referendum gave consent to vote leave? No.
    A girl gives no response to having sex because she feared she'd get hurt by the guy even more. Did she consent to having sex? No.

    A typical case in pakistan 30 years back:
    a girl didn't give a reply to marriage proposal because she didn't want to disgrace her dad. Did she give consent? No. Was the marriage wrong islamically? Yes.
    You seem to be confusing the arguments here.
    I am claiming that a lack of explicit refusal is not consent, and explicit consent by a 8 year old is not valid.
    Your post #132 claims that it is.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    But the whole point of divine objective morality is that it is fixed and universal.
    Allah permits the use of captives for sex. Therefore it is a morally acceptable practice. Your, or my opinion on the issue is irrelevant. If we thing that it is morally objectionable, we are wrong.
    This is the thing that is problematical. We both know that using captives for sex is morally repugnant, but your belief in Islam and the infallibility of Allah means that you are in a quandry. If you condemn using captives for sex, you are explicitly saying that Allah was wrong, and that you consider your own, innate, human sense of morality to be superior to Allah's - and this makes a mockery of the entire concept of Islam, the perfect Quran, Muhammad the final messenger, all of it.

    If you are a Muslim, the only morality you can have is that which Allah has revealed. If you think it is wrong you have only two alternatives - accept Allah's morality or reject Islam.
    This is why the creator gave us free will. Make your own choices your own opinions otherwise he would've made us as angels with the same "morals" if i can say that as him (swt).
    You're telling me i have to accept that slavery today is acceptable or otherwise leave islam because i "don't agree" with Allah's "morals" is absurd. I am simply stating that i would not take a slave purely because that's my choice and i don't think it's right. It's the right that Allah has given me - to make my own choice - i'm not refuting Allah and saying that he is wrong and i'm right.. no. It is something that Allah has permitted - whether i choose to act on it or not is between me and the Almighty not you or anyone else.

    To conclude if you're trying to make me lose faith it won't work, my actions and opinions and morals and "political views" are nothing in comparison to Allah (swt).
    I will be judged in accordance to my actions and my character.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    @QE2
    You're definitely a great debater i'll give you that - even tho we've all gone off track a little

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Khizer.M)
    So smoking legalized weed is permissable but do i believe it's acceptable? No - because it's simply my choice not to smoke weed regardless of it being acceptable or not.
    Do you see what i mean?
    Because something is acceptable doesn't mean i will condone it.

    The same way it is written as acceptable/permissable for slaves to be taken for war doesn't mean i will take them.
    And no offece but who are you to sit there and tell me what Allah's (swt) morals are??
    So you think that Allah was wrong to allow taking slaves and to allow using them for sex.

    If you think that Allah is wrong about something because you personally consider it to be wrong, you are rejecting Allah's morality in favour of your own.

    I agree with you on this, but I don't see how you can then consider Allah's word to be perfect. You have clearly stated that it is not.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Chakede)
    i think the points been made before tho, that the qurans been translated millions of times and inteprated even more than that over the centuries, with various narratives, analysis and and theories of hundreds of claimed experts. you are saying they should just read it and understand it- clearly that isnt possible. its not really been written in a way thats easily to follow for a non-arab native
    That isn't what I meant; what I meant is that many people only have a very cultural and shallow knowledge of Islamic basics, but reading the Quran will help beef up their understanding a bit more. I do understand that obviously people won't understand finer rules without more reading and learning, but that was never my point. Instead I only meant that people should at least make that effort to know what the Quran says in the first place even if they don't understand all of it properly.
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mercuryman)
    :rolleyes:

    Good day.
    You're welcome. Any time.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    You seem to be confusing the arguments here.
    I am claiming that a lack of explicit refusal is not consent, and explicit consent by a 8 year old is not valid.
    Your post #132 claims that it is.
    No it doesn't because straight away the 'competence' of an 8 year old child can be dismissed straight away by any sane and moral muslim parent since clearly their age itself makes them too young to understand life-impacting decisions. Looking at post 132, marriage proposal would be declined straight at step 2.

    This keeps going in circles. We'll call it a day here, buddy. Get some rest.
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Khizer.M)
    This is why the creator gave us free will. Make your own choices your own opinions otherwise he would've made us as angels with the same "morals" if i can say that as him (swt).
    You're telling me i have to accept that slavery today is acceptable or otherwise leave islam because i "don't agree" with Allah's "morals" is absurd. I am simply stating that i would not take a slave purely because that's my choice and i don't think it's right. It's the right that Allah has given me - to make my own choice - i'm not refuting Allah and saying that he is wrong and i'm right.. no. It is something that Allah has permitted - whether i choose to act on it or not is between me and the Almighty not you or anyone else.
    It goes beyond whether you would take slaves or use them for sex. You still seem to accept that doing so is permitted by Allah.
    This isn't like an issue of whether a country's law is fair or acceptable. We are talking about the divine and objective morality of the perfect god.
    Whether or not you would use his permission to have sex with your slaves is irrelevant, it is whether his permission is fundamentally morally acceptable.

    Your position means that you cannot objectively condemn those who do use slaves for sex, only that you wouldn't do it yourself (which is good!)

    To conclude if you're trying to make me lose faith it won't work, my actions and opinions and morals and "political views" are nothing in comparison to Allah (swt).
    I will be judged in accordance to my actions and my character.
    I am certainly not trying to make you lose your faith, that is something entirely personal. I am merely pointing out that the god that you worship as objectively perfect is nothing of the sort.
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Khizer.M)
    @QE2
    You're definitely a great debater i'll give you that - even tho we've all gone off track a little

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    And I would commend you for not trying to defend slavery simply because it is permitted, although this does raise certain questions about the nature of your belief.

    As I have said on many threads, the only way forward for Islam is for more Muslims to move away from the slavish assumption that the Quran, and Muhammad's example, are perfect, and to accept that some elements of traditional Islam must be unequivocally rejected (like the permission to take slaves and use them for sex). It would appear that you are halfway there.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    So you think that Allah was wrong to allow taking slaves and to allow using them for sex.

    If you think that Allah is wrong about something because you personally consider it to be wrong, you are rejecting Allah's morality in favour of your own.

    I agree with you on this, but I don't see how you can then consider Allah's word to be perfect. You have clearly stated that it is not.
    Lets put this into simpler terms.
    lets say Allah has written that it is "correct to take slaves after war"
    I am saying that it is incorrect.
    Me saying that it is incorrect isn't confronting Allah and challenging his authority on it or diasgreeing it's simply taking a neutral stance as i'm not acting on it e.g I'm not taking any slaves.
    Others might do because it's permissable but i am not because it's the right Allah has given me: to do and not to do.
    Me not taking a slave has no effect on me when i'm judged about my life on this earth on judgement day.
    The same way you (idk if you believe in a religion - seems like you don't) don't believe in a religion but i do doesn't mean i'm openly confronting you about it, it just means: this is what my actions are these are what yours are and that's it.
    Becauseon the day of judgement i won't be judged on my opinion about taking war slaves i'll be judged on my actions.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Oh boy what a load of tosh.
    Let's see what your in depth knowledge and well written reponse has to offer us:

    So firstly sure men and women have differences and that is not a bad thing nor should it be ignored, but you have to remember that These differences do not warrent Women wearing veils women not having sex before marriage, not being allowed to go out without a male escort or not being able to drive cars, this is pure sexism and is pretty vile.
    (1) No one has said that it is a bad thing.
    (2) Modesty is required by men and women. Veiling of the face is recommended to Muslim women for their own sake but is of benefit to both men and women alike, but just because women would choose to veil and men would not (in normal circumstances anyway), that does not make it bad.
    (3) Sex before marriage is not allowed for men or women, so this point is nonsense.
    (4) Travelling distances with a male escort is for the woman's safety, not as form of oppression.
    (5) Not being able to drive cars is not a part of Islam; that is a law unique to Saudi Arabia.

    You have the moronic leaders saying that women cannot drive due to seatbelts hurting their wombs and ovaries, this is a load of *******s and only a idiot would say this. They talk about how women should not go out as it is dangerous, you see how these idiotic leaders try and spin everything to be "oh we are doing it for the best as it is helping women"
    (*) Refer to (5)

    So yes lets talk about those vile evils of..... Music. Music is something that brings people together and has done many wonders for the world. but no its evil as it distracts people, do you know what else distracts people for a long time. praying 5 times a day. and yes people do listen to music but if you think loads of people go ok I am going to sit here with some music on and do nothing then you are crazy, most people do it while doing other things, Driving the car, pop the radio on, doing the dishes, cleaning cooking writing or just as some ambience. And music makes many people happy, something allah does not like, people having fun.
    (6) I was talking about music within an Islamic context, so your points have no relevance here as my discussion with her was reconcilling reasoning with the Islamic prohibition.
    (7) Within the Islamic context, one would be unable to engage in acts of Ibadah whilst listening to music since it is simply not practical/possible e.g. dhikr, reciting Quran, praying etc.
    (8) There are other reasons why music is negative which I have not mentioned, but the subject was too much to type on my phone, but that indeed was sufficient.
    (9) Haram things could constitute 'fun' e.g. drinking alcohol, but it does not mean it is good for one's spiritual or personal wellbeing.

    and those musicians who are "wasting" their time normally do it because they enjoy it and make millions of other people happy and many musicians donate money to charity and good causes. and your idea about gambling sure gambling is not the best thing to do but now and then it is fun and as long as you know your limits it is fine, and card counting does not take too long to learn, I know how to count cards and it took me less than 2 months to get good at it, granted I am not the best at it, and for many gambling is a bit of fun, once again something the big guy in the sky does not like.
    (*) Refer to (6)
    (10) It's becoming increasingly apparent that your post is not about discussing my advice within an Islamic context (which was the point of my discussion with her and this thread). Your points are just ramblings of your views with no actual link to the topic at hand. Thank you for wasting both of our times.
    (11) Gambling is prohibited in Islam.

    and sure things can take over peoples lives much like how Religion can ruin and take over peoples lives and both are bad, but many people are not obsessed with music or gambling so your point is invalid. and you think that sitting in a room praying is a more valuable use of time. pff
    (12) Things done in the correct way will not ruin one's life. Islam done in the correct way will not ruin someones life, rather it will enhance it, though it will be at the expense of things deemed to be unnecessary or bad.
    (13) Yes, praying is more beneficial than listening to music, though you would not understand that as you are not muslim. Please refer back to (11).


    "but this is sufficient as a rational explanation for why music is prohibited"

    No no it is not it is completely irrational
    (*) Refer to (6, 11)

    Now I do not care what someone says about sex slaves being fine He is wrong slavery in all kinds in wrong and no your prisoners were not treated how you suggest and far worse than today.

    "(than that of those who have captured them), kept away from society, segregated from the opposite gender, treated as bags of meat and bone instead of as human beings etc"
    I am glad prisoners are treated better than women in islam
    (14) Provide proof that these rights do not exist in Islam as taught by the Prophet.
    (15) Men are segregated from the opposite gender too.
    (16) Women are not treated like modern prisoners. Women are treated better.

    Oh boy what a load of tosh.
    I agree, your post was.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    @QE2
    I think by now you and i both know where we stand on all this. From an objective pov alot of it is to do with what us as individuals choose to do and that's where morals and contemporary views come in. I personally don't want everyone to take everyone else as slaves...
    And i'd advise muslims against it even if they use the argument "its permissable". Yes it is - but have some empathy - how would you feel if you were in their position etc.

    No matter how much debating we do on TSR forums nothing's gonna change.
    This is my last post coz i've been goin 12 rounds with you and a couple others since mornin' lmfao

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    You should be stoned to death end of

    lol joke

    I would say it is completely natural to doubt a stoneage ideology but also doubt the existence of God because there is no evidence for 'god' whatsoever.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Instead I only meant that people should at least make that effort to know what the Quran says in the first place even if they don't understand all of it properly.
    i think its this lack ability to understand it easily thats caused a lot of problems in the muslim world so far.
 
 
 
Poll
Which is the best season?
Useful resources
Bizarre things students have spent their loans onThings you should budget for at uni

Sponsored features:

Making money from your own website

Need some cash?

How to make money running your own website.

Bianca Miller, runner-up on The Apprentice

Handle your digital footprint

What would an employer find out about you on Google? Find out how to take control.

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Quick reply
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.