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Should trans people be allowed to receive free reassignment surgery on the NHS?

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Do you have any links that aren't completely biased? Thanks
Original post by PQ
All the quotes and studies are referenced and linked to.

Have you read the Sweden study that is reported as inferring that post-transition trans people have "higher" rates of suicide? It clearly doesn't state that.

As for Paul McHugh - he didn't "pioneer" transition/GRS at John Hopkins - he was opposed before taking over the unit and took the post with the stated goal of shutting it down. He's also not exactly a particularly great spoke-person for the anti-trans lobby given his stance on abortion and child abuse.


PRSOM

the Swedish paper is often misused ( as is the paper with utterly poor and little effort expended follow-up percentages for young people with gender issues - especially as it presumes lost from their follow up = cis + het

as for McHugh the least said about that waste of oxygen the better.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by YaliaV
Do you have any links that aren't completely biased? Thanks


Do you? So far you've only posted unsourced "facts" based on crap media reports of interviews with anti- trans activists and mis representations of academic research.

That site links through to both the Johns Hopkins and Swedish study. You can read for yourself what they say about findings and methodology and whether you agree or disagree with Zinnia's criticism.
Reply 203
Original post by biglad2k16
I know it already exists on the Nhs but is it appropriate or is it a waste of money?


No because ultimately it's cosmetic and there are more pressing matters to the NHS sorry
Original post by abc:)
Treatment is there for those who need it

Nope.
Original post by sadly
No because ultimately it's cosmetic and there are more pressing matters to the NHS sorry


GICs and GRS represent a very good investment of a sum that is ' change down back the sofa' in relation to the NHS budget ...

a couple of high value personal injury claims due to failed suicides would wipe out the 'savings' from not providing the service
Original post by dingleberry jam
Nope.


'nope ' what or are you just posting to confirm your ignorance and transphobia ?
Original post by PQ
Do you? So far you've only posted unsourced "facts" based on crap media reports of interviews with anti- trans activists and mis representations of academic research.

That site links through to both the Johns Hopkins and Swedish study. You can read for yourself what they say about findings and methodology and whether you agree or disagree with Zinnia's criticism.


PRSOM

It's also interesting that the self appointed financial, economic and clinical experts of TSR seem to be suggesting Conversion Therapy as the alternative to the current pathway.
Original post by zippyRN
'nope ' what or are you just posting to confirm your ignorance and transphobia ?


:rolleyes:

Don't give me that ********, nothing to do with that, besides I seem to remember a number of your posts reveal a prejudice against drug users.

Treatment isn't there for all those that need it, we have to choose.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by dingleberry jam
:rolleyes:

Treatment isn't there for all those that need it, we have to choose.


however anyone entitled to NHS treatment who requests a referral gets one , especially as the current pathway removed the local psych screening requirement - and the GICs are seeing the rule of unintended consequences because of that ...

Similar problems have arisen in physical health becasue various Specialities have assumed that GPs / A+E / other specialities are rubbish at referring to them / they want to empire build ... but no, if you beleive the millie tants the prolonged waiting times are becasue of some cis - het old white man conspiracy
Original post by zippyRN
if you beleive the millie tants the prolonged waiting times are becasue of some cis - het old white man conspiracy


:rolleyes:

No I just think there are others in greater need that are denied treatment.
Original post by dingleberry jam
:rolleyes:

No I just think there are others in greater need that are denied treatment.


like Whom ?
Someone that drinks or smokes their entire lives and needs an organ transplant = ok
That was their choice to live that lifestyle and many people here have implied that they deserve their very expensive surgery.
Someone that was BORN with a medical condition and needs corrective surgery = not ok
That was NOT their choice yet many people here think they don't deserve to have a much cheaper but still life changing surgery.
The bigotry and ugliness here is disgusting.
Thousands of expensive transplants are performed every year on alcoholics, druggies and heavy smokers which we foot the bill for, yet you would deny a much cheaper corrective surgery for a much smaller number of people?

So let's compare costs for these equally life changing surgeries;
194 heart transplants occurred in the last financial year.
The cost of a heart transplant £40,000
The cost of being on a support machine awaiting the transplant £100,000
Then add on a 2-3 week, often more, hospital stay afterwards.
Add on the anti-rejection drugs they'll have to take everyday for the rest of their lives.
https://nhsbtdbe.blob.core.windows.net/umbraco-assets/1343/annual_stats.pdf
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-115715/Me-operation-heart-transplant.html

Last year there was 330 planned surgeries.
The total cost of gender reassignment surgery on average from £13,867-£29,975 depending on the level of reassignment i.e. top surgery, bottom surgery or both.
Than add on about a night's stay in the hospital, sometimes 2 depending on the hospital.
Hormones are, most of the time, paid by the person themselves.
However we are talking about chest reconstruction here, a much longer more complex surgery involving skin grafts.
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-10-29/thousands-face-long-wait-for-nhs-gender-reassignment-itv-news-learns/
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-10-29/transgender/
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by zippyRN
like Whom ?


Those in need of inpatient mental health care, the elderly, drug addicts, infertile couples....
Original post by dingleberry jam
Those in need of inpatient mental health care, the elderly, drug addicts, infertile couples....


value judgements and a total lack of understanding of the health economics factors at play here .
Original post by NekoAngel13
Someone that drinks or smokes their entire lives and needs an organ transplant = ok
That was their choice to live that lifestyle and many people here have implied that they deserve their very expensive surgery.
Someone that was BORN with a medical condition and needs corrective surgery = not ok
That was NOT their choice yet many people here think they don't deserve to have a much cheaper but still life changing surgery.
The bigotry and ugliness here is disgusting.
Thousands of expensive transplants are performed every year on alcoholics, druggies and heavy smokers which we foot the bill for, yet you would deny a much cheaper corrective surgery for a much smaller number of people?

So let's compare costs for these equally life changing surgeries;
194 heart transplants occurred in the last financial year.
The cost of a heart transplant £40,000
The cost of being on a support machine awaiting the transplant £100,000
Then add on a 2-3 week, often more, hospital stay afterwards.
Add on the anti-rejection drugs they'll have to take everyday for the rest of their lives.
https://nhsbtdbe.blob.core.windows.net/umbraco-assets/1343/annual_stats.pdf
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-115715/Me-operation-heart-transplant.html

Last year there was 330 planned surgeries.
The total cost of gender reassignment surgery on average from £13,867-£29,975 depending on the level of reassignment i.e. top surgery, bottom surgery or both.
Than add on about a night's stay in the hospital, sometimes 2 depending on the hospital.
Hormones are, most of the time, paid by the person themselves.
However we are talking about chest reconstruction here, a much longer more complex surgery involving skin grafts.
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-10-29/thousands-face-long-wait-for-nhs-gender-reassignment-itv-news-learns/
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-10-29/transgender/


So what you're saying is if one person a year wants a dolphinoplasty at £4586010 - £9891750 that's cool? Disgusting prejudice against drug addicts there btw.
Original post by jape
It's worse than a waste of money. It's a moral and ethical catastrophe. There is no evidence that surgery reduces suicide rates - quite the opposite in fact. Surgery has no effect on mortality, which incidentally is extremely high. About 40% of people with Gender Identity Disorder try to top themselves, which is comparable only to Jews in Nazi Germany (if you don't count the mentally ill).

I'm a libertarian, broadly speaking. I don't care what you do. If you really have to cut your genitals up, then crack on. But when you deal with people who are mentally ill, you have to take a different tack. They can't take full responsibility for their own health and so it's the responsibility of society at large to support them. Mutilating their bodies doesn't help people with GID - it makes self-styled "trans allies" feel good about themselves. They're convinced that they're on the frontier of a new civil rights battle, but they've got blood on their hands.

Future generations will wonder how we could ever have been so cruel as to treat the mentally unwell with such disregard for our own gratification.


What makes you think it doesn't help with suicide rates? I remember asking someone on a different thread and having to do the research myself and seeming to find out that they were just wrong and a lot of research indicates it does help. I'll have a look through my old posts if I get time later to check I'm not going mad.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by zippyRN
value judgements and a total lack of understanding of the health economics factors at play here .


Well that's the Tories for you.
Original post by dingleberry jam
Well that's the Tories for you.


Quite

I'm not sure I understand your logic on withholding effective care from a very small group of people in order to "fix" the problems of the NHS budget. Especially when the things you want to divert the cash to (in patient mental health care) are likely to end up bearing the brunt of the withdrawal of effective help with transitioning.
Original post by PQ
Quite

I'm not sure I understand your logic on withholding effective care from a very small group of people in order to "fix" the problems of the NHS budget. Especially when the things you want to divert the cash to (in patient mental health care) are likely to end up bearing the brunt of the withdrawal of effective help with transitioning.


It's not my logic it's just where we are. If we're going to withhold treatment for the things i've been mentioning then i don't see why we shouldn't here too. .

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