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Muslims "in the crosshairs of bigotry" watch

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    (Original post by savonarola)
    never said that. i only mentioned it to show that the original prophets of islam were very progressive with regards to how women ought to be treated in a society. too bad this
    characteristic has been lost on the contemporary muslims.
    Momo was married to a women 20 year his elder who was an entrepreneur (lady was in import/resale of spices), that's liberal as ****, even by today's standards
    Yes. And she was all those things (having inherited the business from her father) before Muhammad invented Islam.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Not sure where you got the idea that Muhammad was a warlord, and even then, so were many other figures in history? Why is the Muslim one suddenly more worthy of criticism than say Chairman Mao or Hitler?
    again. seems odd for an 'atheist' to question the idea mohammed was a warlord, to anyone but a muslim he would have been the very definition of such, given his attempted conquests of the arabian penisula to impose himself as leader of all the arabs right up to his death
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    (Original post by QE2)
    And yet, women were able to hold poitions of influence, manage their own affairs, and inherit familiy wealth in pre-Islamic Arabia (see Khadija, Muhammad's first wife).
    Something doesn't add up.
    they were also allowed to rule ie hold position of Queen in pre islamic society, something mohammed never allowed, in fact none of the known islamic prophets were female. and certainly none of the Caliphs
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    (Original post by QE2)
    And yet, women were able to hold poitions of influence, manage their own affairs, and inherit familiy wealth in pre-Islamic Arabia (see Khadija, Muhammad's first wife).
    Something doesn't add up.
    (Original post by QE2)
    Yes. And she was all those things (having inherited the business from her father) before Muhammad invented Islam.
    Common you are smarter than this
    Before Momo invented islam this was the privilege of the elites. Khadija is from a very rich and prestigious family.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadij...ylid#Biography
    Give momo and his entourage credit where due
    The inheritance business + the limitations on multiple wives both numerically and by implementing thresholds was groundbreaking(sand-drilling) stuff.
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    (Original post by savonarola)
    Common you are smarter than this
    Before Momo invented islam this was the privilege of the elites. Khadija is from a very rich and prestigious family.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadij...ylid#Biography
    Give momo and his entourage credit where due
    wikipedia actually says she became a very wealthy trader once she had inherited the business from her merchant father - who it isnt mentioned was particulalry wealthy. all you have shown is that rights of inheritance ( full inheritance) existed long before mohammed decided to half it for women, and that women were able to own their own business assets and be bosses of their own financial matters before mohammed came along and changed all that
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    (Original post by savonarola)
    Common you are smarter than this
    Before Momo invented islam this was the privilege of the elites. Khadija is from a very rich and prestigious family.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadij...ylid#Biography
    Give momo and his entourage credit where due
    The inheritance business + the limitations on multiple wives both numerically and by implementing thresholds was groundbreaking(sand-drilling) stuff.
    Either these things were possible before Islam, or they were not. The details apply equally to pre- and post-Islam Arabia.

    However, the important issue is the ability for progress. The infallible immutability of the Quran prevents further progress.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    wikipedia actually says she became a very wealthy trader once she had inherited the business from her merchant father - who it isnt mentioned was particulalry wealthy. all you have shown is that rights of inheritance ( full inheritance) existed long before mohammed decided to half it for women, and that women were able to own their own business assets and be bosses of their own financial matters before mohammed came along and changed all that
    Khadija became a very successful merchant
    this is what it says and it's a baseless but harmless hyperbole. she's from one of the top-5 families of Quraish, they were, and perhaps still are, rich as ****.
    average arabian women had no rights before : This is very clear to anyone who has any understanding of agrarian societies/ warrior/ nomadic tribes. You will be hard pressed to find any legit research. however, It is not unreasonable to think that the treatment of inheritance was similar to what some of their neighbours were doing. well the jews in Cannan and much closer, in Yathrib & Madina had 0 inheritance for daughters :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inheri...of_inheritance
    Momo & Co decided to somewhat fix this : one has to give credit where due
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Either these things were possible before Islam, or they were not. The details apply equally to pre- and post-Islam Arabia.

    .
    Late case of bad faith ? don't you agree that average arab women benefited from the uni-formalisation of islamic canon and that Khadija is from an elite family which is as representative of the average pre-islamic woman as grace kelly is to the average american girl ?

    However, the important issue is the ability for progress. The infallible immutability of the Quran prevents further progress
    it's not, Momo & Co were true visionaries. There is enough of an opening in the Quran to make a case for theological reform through a concept called Ijtihad

    Ijtihad (Arabic: اجتهاد‎‎ ijtihād, lit. effort, physical or mental, expended in a particular activity)[1] is an Islamic legal term referring to independent reasoning[2] or the thorough exertion of a jurist's mental faculty in finding a solution to a legal question.[1] It is contrasted with taqlid (imitation, conformity to legal precedent).[2][3] According to classical Sunni theory, ijtihad requires expertise in the Arabic language, theology, revealed texts, and principles of jurisprudence (usul al-fiqh),[2] and is not employed where authentic and authoritative texts (Qur'an and hadith) are considered unambiguous with regard to the question, or where there is an existing scholarly consensus (ijma).[1] Ijtihad is considered to be a religious duty for those qualified to perform it.[2] An Islamic scholar who is qualified to perform ijtihad is called a mujtahid.[1]
    During the golden age we had no shortage of reformists intellectuals in al Al Azhar, Granada and al qarawiyin publishing courageous and visionary fiqh.
    Today the two last ones are closed and Al Azhar is financed by the degenerate al-sauds who employ religious divine right to govern.
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    (Original post by savonarola)
    Khadija became a very successful merchant
    this is what it says and it's a baseless but harmless hyperbole. she's from one of the top-5 families of Quraish, they were, and perhaps still are, rich as ****.
    average arabian women had no rights before : This is very clear to anyone who has any understanding of agrarian societies/ warrior/ nomadic tribes. You will be hard pressed to find any legit research. however, It is not unreasonable to think that the treatment of inheritance was similar to what some of their neighbours were doing. well the jews in Cannan and much closer, in Yathrib & Madina had 0 inheritance for daughters :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inheri...of_inheritance
    Momo & Co decided to somewhat fix this : one has to give credit where due
    as far as i could see he changed the rules effectivley stopping women like khadija becoming as successful as she was pre-islam. if womens rights were high up on Mo's hitlist, im sure he could have stretched to more than half a womens share for inheritence
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    as far as i could see he changed the rules effectivley stopping women like khadija becoming as successful as she was pre-islam. if womens rights were high up on Mo's hitlist, im sure he could have stretched to more than half a womens share for inheritence
    First, we don't know that. Khadija's family was really special again. Her father had 1 son and 2 daughters, we don't know how he split the stuff :/
    Second, Mo&Co are realistic folks who had to deal with real world problems : there's a limit to how many privileges you can stretch from the average pre-islamic arab before he tells you to **** of. maybe Mo&Co wanted to install monogamy, but go convince a guy who's used to having 99 wives renewing them and discarding them as he pleases to keep only one for ... life. even god has to compromise
    and frankly, the
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridda_wars are a sign that Mo&Co actually really stretched it a bit too much for the tastes of the local tribesmen and leaders. I mean common, i have to pay taxes now ? severe limitations on slavery ? i need to marry a woman before ****ing her and can't just dump her afterwards... u gotta understand them
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    (Original post by savonarola)
    First, we don't know that. Khadija's family was really special again. Her father had 1 son and 2 daughters, we don't know how he split the stuff :/
    Second, Mo&Co are realistic folks who had to deal with real world problems

    Hmmm.... dont really see how 'real life' he was , if you read some of his other rules, theories and edicts.
    (Original post by savonarola)


    : there's a limit to how many privileges you can stretch from the average pre-islamic arab before he tells you to **** of. maybe Mo&Co wanted to install monogamy, but go convince a guy who's used to having 99 wives renewing them and discarding them as he pleases to keep only one for ... life.


    well, 4 but anyway. Mo kept the priviledge of double figure wife reserves for himself. and certainly he made a fuss about these arabs need to stop eating pork and quit the wine - but was less bothered about banning slavery or beating your wives. i agree tho that the pre-islamic arab would take offense in general, to an illiterate hitherto nobody who worked for his wife - who then proclaimed himself king of all the arabs and demanded mecca to become his personal kingdom. Youd imagine theyd all get the hump, and in fact take up arms to defend their land - oh wait they did. he wasnt then much of the prophet if he wasnt able to convince these guys.

    (Original post by savonarola)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridda_wars are a sign that Mo&Co actually really stretched it a bit too much for the tastes of the local tribesmen and leaders.
    the riddah wars came after Mo had died, and came about in the power vacuum he left. Again predictably - grand supreme leader of the arabs drops out the picture without setting up his successor - all hell breaks loose. ( can argue has been kicking off for the last 1200 years in the islamic world)

    (Original post by savonarola)



    I mean common, i have to pay taxes now ? severe limitations on slavery ? i need to marry a woman before ****ing her and can't just dump her afterwards... u gotta understand them
    but he still allowed the beat the crap out of their wives if they were lippy, allowed them to keep all the female sex slaves they could catch ( as long as they werent muslim) plus he promised them a bunch of big breasted virgins in his idea of the after life. so very much an all round sales pitch for the average arab desert dweller. id guess though even Mo would be surprised to see his pitch is still being touted to english muslims in 2016
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    Hmmm.... dont really see how 'real life' he was , if you read some of his other rules, theories and edicts.




    well, 4 but anyway. Mo kept the priviledge of double figure wife reserves for himself. i agree tho that the pre-islamic arab would take offense in general, to an illiterate hitherto nobody who worked for his wife - who then proclaimed himself king of all the arabs and demanded mecca to become his personal kingdom. Youd imagine theyd all get the hump, and in fact take up arms to defend their land - oh wait they did. he wasnt then much of the prophet if he wasnt able to convince these guys.


    the riddah wars came after Mo had died, and came about in the power vacuum he left. Again predictably - grand supreme leader of the arabs drops out the picture without setting up his successor - all hell breaks loose. ( can argue has been kicking off for the last 1200 years in the islamic world)


    but he still allowed the beat the crap out of their wives if they were lippy, allowed them to keep all the female sex slaves they could catch ( as long as they werent muslim) plus he promised them a bunch of big breasted virgins in his idea of the after life. so very much an all round sales pitch for the average arab desert dweller. id guess though even Mo would be surprised to see his pitch is still being touted to english muslims in 2016
    hhh. i guess so.
    Though, we benefited from very able statesmen in the personas of the first, second and third caliphs. Great military men and Visionary governors, loyal allies and luck.
    the **** hit the fan when omar wasn't around any more to keep in check the entitled cousin and all the wanabee caliphs.
    The biggest hit came when the Catalan ***** gave us an autistic heir for a caliph while nourishing an illicit relationship with the rising yemeni star. but that's another story.
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    (Original post by MMM1997)
    The killing of non Muslims is never mentioned. if you actually read the arabic it says polytheists i.e. the people who betrayed muhammad. If at any point they sought forgiveness or asylum the Muslims had to give it to them.
    If you think the bible is a very peaceful book you obviously havent some part which are very extreme.
    The subjugation of women believe it or not is actually because of cultural beliefs. Islam placed women in a very high place. In Islam men and women are equals.
    Have you read the quran?

    I wasn't saying the bible is a very peaceful book, I was saying Jesus was a peaceful guy, unlike mohammed
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Re-read your statement, you just suggested that our society allows child marriage, and endorsed it.
    :rolleyes:
    Maybe I said exactly what I meant

    Thanks for pointing that out haha.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    "most muslims aren't like that"? a 2011 UK poll suggested that 100% of muslims asked think homosexuality is "unacceptable" - and 75% of them thought people should be criminalised for insulting the prophet muhammad...and 50% thought gay people should be jailed. it's hard to not generalise with figures like those

    edit: thank you shadow mod for editing out my "islam is the most bigoted religion in existence" statement...I'm sure you meant to make that more clear but nah
    I like you a lot. Smart guy, very similar views to myself.
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    (Original post by JuliusDS92)
    Maybe I said exactly what I meant

    Thanks for pointing that out haha.
    seems strange, given that its illegal
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    (Original post by irfan98)
    The "other major religions" being Christianity and Judaism, I presume? Have you heard of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza or the invasion of Iraq?
    Christianity and Judaism as ideologies are also bad. Islam is just much worse.
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    (Original post by The Good Doctor)
    Christianity and Judaism as ideologies are also bad. Islam is just much worse.
    Wrong. Islam is considered worse in the West because the effects of the savagery and brutality also generated by Christianity and Judaism are rarely witnessed here. If you were a child in Gaza living under Israeli bombs, or a girl in Uganda sold into sexual slavery by the Lord's Resistance Army, or an Iraqi whose country has been destroyed by an illegal occupation, you might think differently. And when you say "Christianity and Judaism as ideologies", what exactly do you mean? There is no one Christianity or Judaism, just as there is no one Islam. Religions are not set in stone, they are different for each follower; everyone has their own personal interpretation of faith. So no, Christianity and Judaism are not bad, and neither is Islam; they're all neutral. They can be used to justify evil, just as they can be used to justify good. There are some Jews occupying the West Bank, just as there are many Jews who abhor the crimes of Israel. Likewise, there are some Muslims beheading people, just as there are many Muslims going about their lives who want nothing to do with what ISIS is doing. There is no one correct interpretation of religion.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Assume you are right, and the Quran is this wonderful, magnificent book with the most amazing morals.

    How come Muslims that are meant to live by it, have such **** culture? How come so many interpret it in such disgusting ways?
    Their culture is reflective of their county not their religion. Just because a country is Muslim doesn't mean their culture will be islamic. Take for example Pakistani honour killings which have nothing to do with Islam rather it's their culture which makes them do that because in Islam as long as the person is Muslim you can marry them. The parents permission nor agreement is required even for women.
    Most of the time it's because of their own lack of knowledge or because someone has taught them an extremist mentality. If you have the knowhow you wouldn't interpret the quran in the way done people do. The key word is interpret which means some people will do it right but others obviously won't. It's like having a normal everyday jew trying to interpret the meaning of the old Hebrew scriptures without a high enough understanding.
 
 
 
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