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I don't know how anyone can eat meat :-( Watch

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    (Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
    I think it's perfectly okay to kill animals for meat, but I think slaughterhouse practices need to be more humane. I think it's important that you get your meat from good sources.
    This.

    I think the state should take stronger steps to protect animal welfare, preferably by mandating that all meat sold in the UK must have been produced according to reasonable welfare standards, but, personally, the cost/benefit analysis of abstaining from eating meat for the sake of potentially making some immeasurably insignificant impact on the meat industry's welfare standards really doesn't work out.
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    Can vegans get off their high horse and stop judging us meat eaters. Bet you'd love the taste of a bacon sarnie if I shoved one in your mouth.
    Also how does killing animals cause climate change?
    You've freely chosen to participate in this thread, and it's impossible for me not to make value-judgements. If I didn't believe that being vegan was the right thing to do, I wouldn't be a vegan.

    You're judging me right now, in fact, because you believe that I shouldn't be judging you There's nothing wrong with judging people (EDIT: their actions), as long as it's done in a reasonably respectful manner. My last post, with numerous citations, attempts to outline why I think eating meat is morally unjustifiable.

    The meat industry is a major contributor to climate change, responsible for almost 15% of greenhouse gas emissions, more than the entire transportation sector.

    The Environmental Working Group has found that virtually all plant-based products are responsible for fewer emissions than animal products, which is why it’s unsurprising that a 2014 study, published in the peer-reviewed journal Climatic Change, found that vegans, followed by vegetarians, had the lowest greenhouse gas emissions associated with their diets. It’s also why the UN’s Environment Program has called on everyone to move towards a vegan diet:

    Impacts from agriculture are expected to increase substantially due to population growth increasing consumption of animal products. Unlike fossil fuels, it is difficult to look for alternatives: people have to eat. A substantial reduction of impacts would only be possible with a substantial worldwide diet change, away from animal products.
    Why? Growing plants and transporting them to the consumer is much less greenhouse gas intensive than: growing crops, transporting them to the farm, powering the farm (which produces waste and methane emissions from burps (methane is a more potent greenhouse gas than CO2)), transporting the animals to the slaughterhouse, powering the slaughterhouse, and then transporting the meat to the consumer.

    Given that climate change is already causing humans to suffer - and will continue to do so but at an accelerating rate - we should all take individual action to ensure that the warming of the planet is slowed and halted. Governments seem set to fail in the duty: the Paris climate change agreement doesn't even limit warming to 2C, and that's even assuming that every country will keep to its pledge.


    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    This.

    I think the state should take stronger steps to protect animal welfare, preferably by mandating that all meat sold in the UK must have been produced according to reasonable welfare standards, but, personally, the cost/benefit analysis of abstaining from eating meat for the sake of potentially making some immeasurably insignificant impact on the meat industry's welfare standards really doesn't work out.
    When you abstain from eating meat and other animal products, you prevent animals from being raised, transported and slaughtered in the terrible conditions I outlined in my previous post. And, as I demonstrated, the maths roughly works out such that each animal you abstain from eating roughly translates to one animal saved.

    EDIT: Also, British animal welfare law already requires that unnecessary suffering of animals in the meat industry be minimized. The industry gets to define what's necessary, of course (and they haven't considered, for instance, that eating meat and other animal products is entirely unnecessary). As a result, most of the meat sold in the UK comes from factory farms, and slaughterhouse conditions are very often inhumane. "Free-range", "humane", "RSPCA-certified" and "Red Tractor" have also been exposed as being nothing more than marketing terms. Again, this is because the profit of the meat industry will always come before the welfare of the animals, and that's because we have such high demand for meat.
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    (Original post by IWMTom)
    We evolved by eating meat, and it's only little attention seekers like yourself who've come along recently and made the whole vegetarian/vegan bull**** rife. No offence to you, I respect your decision, but I personally couldn't care less about the animal - I like meat, I will eat meat.
    Firstly, vegetarians have existed for thousands of years, from ancient Greece to India, and people who are much smarter and more distinguished than you will ever be are vegetarians, it's not just concerned teenage girls. Secondly If you don't care about the animal, does that mean you believe it is acceptable to inflict suffering on animals? How do you justify this opinion? And I'm afraid 'we evolved eating meat' makes absolutely no sense whatsoever as a justification. I'm not even a vegetarian myself, but it annoys me when people say 'we evolved to do X' because that is just sheer ignorance of science.

    Science tells us what happened in the past, how things happens and what is likely to happen in the future, it doesn't tell us anything about what should or should not happen. That is a matter for moral philosophy. And 'we evolved doing X so we should continue to do it' derives from a school of philosophy called social Darwinism, which has been thoroughly discredited both by philosophers and also by mainstream scientists. Ironically, you are actually using the same logical fallacy that vegan/hippy types use, since they also believe that 'natural is good, unnatural is bad', without any basis for believing this.
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    When you abstain from eating meat and other animal products, you prevent animals from being raised in the terrible conditions I outlined in my previous post.
    Perhaps on a very small scale, in the context of an industry which will benefit from inevitable growth in global demand and therefore continue to expand regardless. I don't really do empty symbolism, personally. If there were a way for me to contribute to a significant change where there are problems I would be happy to do so, whether that involved supporting tougher legislation against abuses or joining a general boycott which actually affected the relevant companies' bottom lines in a meaningful way, but as far as the tiny impact which I could make on the industry by deciding merely for myself not to consume animal products is concerned I'm afraid my enjoyment of meat outweighs the amount of animal suffering I'd actually prevent.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Perhaps on a very small scale, in the context of an industry which will benefit from inevitable growth in global demand and therefore continue to expand regardless. I don't really do empty symbolism, personally. If there were a way for me to contribute to a significant change where there are problems I would be happy to do so, whether that involved supporting tougher legislation against abuses or joining a general boycott which actually affected the relevant companies' bottom lines in a meaningful way, but as far as the tiny impact which I could make on the industry by deciding merely for myself not to consume animal products is concerned I'm afraid my enjoyment of meat outweighs the amount of animal suffering I'd actually prevent.
    A vegetarian saves hundreds of animals every single year (see the middle of this article, which I linked to before, and here); I'd hardly call this a tiny impact, and that's not including the societal effects of your decision (people around you may eat less meat as a result, for instance). You'll be slowing the growth of the industry, not all "expansion" is equal.

    Going vegan shouldn't be seen as an all-or-nothing thing, either. Reducing consumption of meat and other animal products still does significant good, and means that you can still enjoy meat while still alleviating some suffering. Cutting out (in this order) chicken, eggs, pig products and fish whilst still eating beef is also another way to cut out a lot of the suffering while still being able to enjoy some meat. (See here for some commentary and explanation on this.)

    Finally, there are some highly cost-effective animal advocacy organizations fighting for better conditions in the meat industry and tackling factory farming, and they're achieving measurable results, including helping to pass legislation outlawing the gestation crate, and getting retailers across the Western world to commit to only supplying cage-free eggs (which is far from perfect, given the problems with cage-free systems, but a start). Animal Charity Evaluators, which compares and evaluates the cost-effectiveness and transparency of animal charities, estimates that for every $1 donated to their currently recommended charities (The Humane League, Mercy for Animals and Animal Equality), 13-14 animals are spared the misery of factory farming. Donating even a small amount to these charities every month would therefore do a lot of good, and potentially more good than your individual dietary change (indeed, some meat-eaters now donate to these charities to 'offset' their meat consumption).
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    A vegetarian saves hundreds of animals every single year (see the middle of this article, which I linked to before, and here); I'd hardly call this a tiny impact, and that's not including the societal effects of your decision (people around you may eat less meat as a result, for instance). You'll be slowing the growth of the industry, not all "expansion" is equal.

    Going vegan shouldn't be seen as an all-or-nothing thing, either. Reducing consumption of meat and other animal products still does significant good, and means that you can still enjoy meat while still alleviating some suffering. Cutting out (in this order) chicken, eggs, pig products and fish whilst still eating beef is also another way to cut out a lot of the suffering while still being able to enjoy some meat. (See here for some commentary and explanation on this.)

    Finally, there are some highly cost-effective animal advocacy organizations fighting for better conditions in the meat industry and tackling factory farming, and they're achieving measurable results, including helping to pass legislation outlawing the gestation crate, and getting retailers across the Western world to commit to only supplying cage-free eggs (which is far from perfect, given the problems with cage-free systems, but a start). Animal Charity Evaluators, which compares and evaluates the cost-effectiveness and transparency of animal charities, estimates that for every $1 donated to their currently recommended charities (The Humane League, Mercy for Animals and Animal Equality), 13-14 animals are spared the misery of factory farming. Donating even a small amount to these charities every month would therefore do a lot of good, and potentially more good than your individual dietary change (indeed, some meat-eaters now donate to these charities to 'offset' their meat consumption).
    Okay, thanks for this. I'll have a look at your source on the implications of preferring particular meats, and at sending some money to some of those charities. If the figure you've cited is accurate that's a really incredible impact for the money.
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    This is part of natural selection- the weak die and the strong survive and so far, the humans are winning. Therefore, that's why we take advantage of them like this.
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    (Original post by IWMTom)
    This happens every day in the animal kingdom - animals eating animals - what do you propose to do about that? Just stop the food chain? This whole not eating meat malarky is a frivolous attempt at retaining "morals" that quite frankly aren't correct.
    SOME animals eat each other (SOME). Only 25% of animals in the animal kingdom eat other animals. Also, SOME animals also rape each other, so going by your logic it is ok for humans to rape other humans. That the problem with you people, you never consistent in your logic. One moment you're saying its ok to do something because other animals doing it, the next minute you're saying NO NO humans are not animals, its not ok to act like the other animals NOOOO.
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    Can vegans get off their high horse and stop judging us meat eaters. Bet you'd love the taste of a bacon sarnie if I shoved one in your mouth.
    Also how does killing animals cause climate change?
    Can you get off your high house and stop acting like you know it all?
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    You've freely chosen to participate in this thread, and it's impossible for me not to make value-judgements. If I didn't believe that being vegan was the right thing to do, I wouldn't be a vegan.

    You're judging me right now, in fact, because you believe that I shouldn't be judging you There's nothing wrong with judging people (EDIT: their actions), as long as it's done in a reasonably respectful manner. My last post, with numerous citations, attempts to outline why I think eating meat is morally unjustifiable.

    The meat industry is a major contributor to climate change, responsible for almost 15% of greenhouse gas emissions, more than the entire transportation sector.

    The Environmental Working Group has found that virtually all plant-based products are responsible for fewer emissions than animal products, which is why it’s unsurprising that a 2014 study, published in the peer-reviewed journal Climatic Change, found that vegans, followed by vegetarians, had the lowest greenhouse gas emissions associated with their diets. It’s also why the UN’s Environment Program has called on everyone to move towards a vegan diet:



    Why? Growing plants and transporting them to the consumer is much less greenhouse gas intensive than: growing crops, transporting them to the farm, powering the farm (which produces waste and methane emissions from burps (methane is a more potent greenhouse gas than CO2)), transporting the animals to the slaughterhouse, powering the slaughterhouse, and then transporting the meat to the consumer.

    Given that climate change is already causing humans to suffer - and will continue to do so but at an accelerating rate - we should all take individual action to ensure that the warming of the planet is slowed and halted. Governments seem set to fail in the duty: the Paris climate change agreement doesn't even limit warming to 2C, and that's even assuming that every country will keep to its pledge.




    When you abstain from eating meat and other animal products, you prevent animals from being raised, transported and slaughtered in the terrible conditions I outlined in my previous post. And, as I demonstrated, the maths roughly works out such that each animal you abstain from eating roughly translates to one animal saved.

    EDIT: Also, British animal welfare law already requires that unnecessary suffering of animals in the meat industry be minimized. The industry gets to define what's necessary, of course (and they haven't considered, for instance, that eating meat and other animal products is entirely unnecessary). As a result, most of the meat sold in the UK comes from factory farms, and slaughterhouse conditions are very often inhumane. "Free-range", "humane", "RSPCA-certified" and "Red Tractor" have also been exposed as being nothing more than marketing terms. Again, this is because the profit of the meat industry will always come before the welfare of the animals, and that's because we have such high demand for meat.
    Yessss You tell her.
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    (Original post by IWMTom)
    We evolved by eating meat, and it's only little attention seekers like yourself who've come along recently and made the whole vegetarian/vegan bull**** rife. No offence to you, I respect your decision, but I personally couldn't care less about the animal - I like meat, I will eat meat.
    You couldn't care less about the animal? Why don't you care about animal welfare?

    If I were to link you the most horrific animal abuse stories on the web, stories where kittens are put in bags and used as baseballs. Stories where dogs are chained to a gate and left to starve and freeze in the middle of winter. Are you telling me that you couldn't "care less" about the welfare of those animals?

    What's the difference between a dog and a cat, and a pig and a lamb?

    OP, I need videos like this to encourage me to stay vegetarian. I ****ing love meat. I regularly crave ordering a juicy rare steak to get my teeth into. And I have caved sometimes, because like I say, I ****ing love meat. But in the end, the animal welfare trumps whatever sort of hedonistic pleasure I get from chewing on a dead animal.

    Yes believe it or not people, my moral values trump my drive for pleasure. Something which believe it or not, is a daily expectation for many of us. Why is this any different?

    Makes me wonder whether all the "moral" behaviour we conduct on a day to day basis is a result of a desire to be good and moral, or actually simply a desire to avoid getting into trouble and to act in accordance with social norms. There's no laws restricting meat consumption, it's not frowned upon, so you people have no problem in obtaining your pleasure, even if it causes significant, and unnecessary suffering.

    But anyway, enjoy your juicy steaks. But on a similar vein to Kate Moss's "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels", nothing tastes as good as the feeling that your playing your small part in the prevention of suffering.
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    Can vegans get off their high horse and stop judging us meat eaters. Bet you'd love the taste of a bacon sarnie if I shoved one in your mouth.
    Also how does killing animals cause climate change?
    The ignorance.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a6753466.html
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    (Original post by RyujinTanaka)
    This is part of natural selection- the weak die and the strong survive and so far, the humans are winning. Therefore, that's why we take advantage of them like this.
    Vegetarians live longer on average compared to meat eaters. So which diet is more evolutionary advantageous?

    Also, the process of meat production across the world is wholly unsustainable and a significant contributor to climate change. Again, do you think this is evolutionary advantageous.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)



    Makes me wonder whether all the "moral" behaviour we conduct on a day to day basis is a result of a desire to be good and moral, or actually simply a desire to avoid getting into trouble and to act in accordance with social norms. There's no laws restricting meat consumption, it's not frowned upon, so you people have no problem in obtaining your pleasure, even if it causes significant, and unnecessary suffering.
    People think its ok because they were brought up to believe it ok. Since they could walk,speak, think, they have been eating meat. 90% of people are a product of society, they only think something is right if they are told it is right and they only think something is wrong if they are told its wrong. I can guarantee you that if most of these people would have no problem with slavery if they were born a few hundreds years ago.

    That's why I laugh at people that say 'It doesn't matter what culture you born into you should still know the difference between right and wrong'. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Becca.b)
    If you are a vegetarian, how are you "saving" animals? surely those animals still get killed but just get eaten by someone else? sorry if im missing something
    By turning off your lights as you leave the room, how are you 'saving' the planet?
    One action alone may be insignificant, but you need to think of the actions collectively.

    Imagine the impact on production and supply if even 25% of the population became vegetarian. but if everyone took your attitude, we'd get nowhere.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    By turning off your lights as you leave the room, how are you 'saving' the planet?
    One action alone may be insignificant, but you need to think of the actions collectively.

    Imagine the impact on production and supply if even 25% of the population became vegetarian. but if everyone took your attitude, we'd get nowhere.
    Thats not my "attitude", i was just curious as i hadnt read the rest of the thread.
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    (Original post by annoyed20)
    People think its ok because they were brought up to believe it ok. Since they could walk,speak, think, they have been eating meat. 90% of people are a product of society, they only think something is right if they are told it is right and they only think something is wrong if they are told its wrong. I can guarantee you that if most of these people would have no problem with slavery if they were born a few hundreds years ago.

    That's why I laugh at people that say 'It doesn't matter what culture you born into you should still know the difference between right and wrong'. :rolleyes:
    It's sad but true. Why should people stop and think about the issue and the effect it's having on animals and our environment when it's much easier to bury your head in the sand, go along with the majority and enjoy eating meat?

    The only difference between supporting the meat industry and supporting domestic animal abuse are social norms. For one group we are conditioned to care about, the other we are conditioned to do the precise opposite.
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    (Original post by Becca.b)
    Thats not my "attitude", i was just curious as i hadnt read the rest of the thread.
    I didn't mean 'your attitude' in a personal way, I was simply referring to the skeptic attitude that you provided.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    I didn't mean 'your attitude' in a personal way, I was simply referring to the skeptic attitude that you provided.
    i was just asking but okay
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Okay, thanks for this. I'll have a look at your source on the implications of preferring particular meats, and at sending some money to some of those charities. If the figure you've cited is accurate that's a really incredible impact for the money.
    Obviously, they're estimates, but they're unlikely to be orders of magnitude wrong, and even if, say, 1.3 animals were spared per dollar instead of 13, that would still be a huge impact. The reason is that some interventions, such as leafleting, are very cheap, but can reach many, many people. Similarly, corporate reforms (retailers moving away from caged eggs or companies serving more vegetarian/vegan stuff in workplace cafeterias) have large and long-running consequences even though they are 'one-off' things.
 
 
 
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