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engineers > scientists > doctors > lawyers > everyone else watch

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    (Original post by Jared44)
    This is one massive flame war.
    It is not much of a flame war. I have calmly given reasons for one ranking, and others have pointed out that how upset these reasons make them.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    If this discussion upsets you, you are free not to read it.
    Why, thank you for your permission
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Without lawyers we would not have a society at all.

    Without accountants no organisation would work.

    I think my ordering was actually completely wrong, it should be:

    lawyers > accountants > engineers > scientists

    You actually don't really need scientists as such, they're just theoretical engineers. They make engineering more efficient, and maybe shouldn't be classed separately at all, but trial and error by dumber engineers would get there eventually.

    Doctors make you live to 81 rather than 76 if you are lucky. They are about useful as the insurance industry, which is pretty useful, but certainly not a society-breaking loss.

    Doctors are literally society breaking, they've been around thousands of years and without them people would dying left right and centre, dead people that would've benefited society.

    Lawyers on the other hand aren't society breaking like accountants/engineers/scientist are either, they aren't essential.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    It is not much of a flame war. I have calmly given reasons for one ranking, and others have pointed out that how upset these reasons make them.
    I guess I could say the same to you. We are just calmly giving reasons too
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    (Original post by SugarCoatedCart)
    Doctors are literally society breaking, they've been around thousands of years and without them people would dying left right and centre, dead people that would've benefited society.
    They're not and they wouldn't. Doctors killed more people than they saved up until the late 19th century. We had civilised society in the late 19th century. The improvements since then have in very small part been due to doctors, as shown by the fact that infectious diseases for which there is no treatment kill about as rarely as infectious diseases for which there are vaccines and treatments.

    Lawyers on the other hand aren't society breaking like accountants/engineers/scientist are either, they aren't essential.
    Without lawyers there would be no system of contract which would make doing almost anything involving more than three or four people completely impractical. You don't see perceive how valuable lawyers are because what they do is so fundamental you think it is just part of the scenery. Similar with industrial agriculture.
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    (Original post by NPWorld)
    I guess I could say the same to you. We are just calmly giving reasons too
    Some are, which is fine. Others are kicking and screaming and saying I am a meanie poo-poo head. I haven't said anything like that to anyone.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Some are, which is fine. Others are kicking and screaming and saying I am a meanie poo-poo head. I haven't said anything like that to anyone.
    I feel really special that you took the time to tag me
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    What is your point? I have never anywhere said that individual lawyers are vital, but rather the profession as a whole. If lawyers died slightly earlier then society would still function but if there were no lawyers at all it would not.
    Well, this isn't exactly what you've been saying all along. Here is what you said to me initially:
    **
    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    I've only come in part-way through this discussion, but to clarify: are you making the case that medical professionals are not fundamental to the maintenance of a liveable society?
    (Original post by Observatory)
    Doctors, yes.
    I think there is a distinction to be drawn between a society which fundamentally functions (which is what you are now talking about) and a society which is liveable (which is what you were talking about when we first began this exchange). I would probably agree that, if doctors ceased to exist tomorrow, although a lot of people would fall ill for longer and with greater severity than necessary and some people would die off completely, society would still basically work. But does that make it liveable?*
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    Well, this isn't exactly what you've been saying all along. Here is what you said to me initially:
    **




    I think there is a distinction to be drawn between a society which fundamentally functions (which is what you are now talking about) and a society which is liveable (which is what you were talking about when we first began this exchange). I would probably agree that, if doctors ceased to exist tomorrow, although a lot of people would fall ill for longer and with greater severity than necessary and some people would die off completely, society would still basically work. But does that make it liveable?*
    If lawyers ceased to exist tomorrow society would collapse and people would be burning their furnishing for heat and eating one another within a few months.
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    (Original post by NPWorld)
    That "basic scientific research" could be done by anyone; doctors, engineers, physicists, mathematicians etc.
    Point is,the greatest improvements in human health tend to come from things like access to clean water and improved sanitation rather than healthcare.
    Diseases like cancer and diabetes type 2 would be more effectively tackled if people made major lifestyle changes,especially considering the cost of some of these drugs are mind boggling.
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    >he fell for the STEM meme.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    If lawyers ceased to exist tomorrow society would collapse and people would be burning their furnishing for heat and eating one another within a few months.
    That doesn't really answer my question.*

    It's also highly dubious, though that's another matter. *
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    That doesn't really answer my question.*

    It's also highly dubious, though that's another matter. *
    It does answer the question. A society in which you had a small but finite chance of dying of something improbable is liveable to the extent that current society is liveable. A society in which all complex organisations fell apart would become strictly Malthusian with a population limit rather a long way below the current popopulation.
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    A bit immature. Greater in what way? Ethically, a doctor; for technological progress, no doubt mathematicians, as they provide unequivocal proof for other subjects' theories; and perhaps for society, the humanities' students. More accurately though, I think this question's too nuanced to be solved justly. I commend anyone who pursues their interests; whether that be in Medicine, Physics, Geography, Media, or whatever.

    G
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    A society in which you had a small but finite chance of dying of something improbable is liveable to the extent that current society is liveable.
    I think you're ruling out quite a large margin of suffering by assuming that a society where most people continue living is similarly liveable.
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    (Original post by Lemauricien)
    But if you get a heart valve disease, who does the operation to save your life ?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    and where did the equipment that surgeon uses come from?
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    I think you're ruling out quite a large margin of suffering by assuming that a society where most people continue living is similarly liveable.
    That doctors substantially reduce suffering is very hard to prove or disprove.

    If a profession that consumes a very large amount of tax money is useful primarily for reasons that are very hard to prove or disprove, I am sceptical that they are useful for anything much at all.

    I visited a doctor yesterday to get a prescription for sport therapy, which is basically just a gym subscription that costs ten times as much but is paid by an insurance company rather than me. The doctor thought I had some kind of twinky chronic pain syndrome and launched into a long ad spiel for osteopathy, which is alternative medicine. So even their guys think that witch doctors can do the relieving suffering business better than them.
 
 
 
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