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    I think these last two off seasons are kind of a symptom of Jerry Jones having so much control. Last year they bought into the hype that they didn't really need a running back because "anyone can run behind that line" and ended up testing the theory out with very mixed results, especially early on. This year obviously the complete opposite has happened. They seem to be reactive, rather than having a clearly thought out process for building their team.

    I think they'll be pretty good. With a ball control offense that good, they should be able to cobble together a passable defense even without a stud coming off the edge. I see Elliot as the #1 fantasy player this year and it's not even close right now.
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    (Original post by jammy4041)
    I saw it for free on the NFL website.The downside is you get Bucky rather Mike Mayock. Jags had a good draft, That's probably one of the best defenses in the league, if it can be shown that Paul Posluzsny hasn't regressed too much.
    You get Coleen Wolfe though too don't you? She knows her stuff and she's 🔥. Poz is still going to be a bit iffy in pass coverage but Smith and Jack are two of the quickest linebackers about. Maybe you shift Jack inside for 3rd and long and play Skuta on the other side?
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    As a polar opposite with the Cowboys, it's pretty obvious to see what Cleveland's analytical approach has brought. They drafted 14 players, and depending on where a few of them play, 13 of them are potentially listed in money 5 positions.

    WR:
    Coleman
    Louis
    Kindred
    Payton
    Higgins
    Devalve (TE?)

    DE/Edge:
    Ogbah
    Nassib
    Schobert (ILB?)

    OT:
    Coleman
    Drango (G?)

    CB:
    Caldwell

    QB:
    Kessler

    Then their last pick was a linebacker called Scooby. Hard to imagine that they don't end up with at least a couple of big time impact players from this list.
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    (Original post by SmashConcept)
    As a polar opposite with the Cowboys, it's pretty obvious to see what Cleveland's analytical approach has brought. They drafted 14 players, and depending on where a few of them play, 13 of them are potentially listed in money 5 positions.

    WR:
    Coleman
    Louis
    Kindred
    Payton
    Higgins
    Devalve (TE?)

    DE/Edge:
    Ogbah
    Nassib
    Schobert (ILB?)

    OT:
    Coleman
    Drango (G?)

    CB:
    Caldwell

    QB:
    Kessler


    Then their last pick was a linebacker called Scooby. Hard to imagine that they don't end up with at least a couple of big time impact players from this list.
    They do this every single time. New regime -- GM and coach -- new "approach." Sure, there's five potential starters in Corey and Shon Coleman, Spencer Drango, Rashad Higgins, Emmanuel Ogbah and Carl Nassib. Maybe six if you include Joe Schobert.

    I simply do not understand this. A team which has real needs in the secondary, real pressing needs, fails to draft any sort of help until the fifth round. Every time...they moved back for picks and reached on inferior talent. I see everyone's quick to give them A+ for their draft, but they had fourteen picks. What's the return?!!! In the words of Matt Foley...JACK SQUAT. Coleman's the best receiver in the draft...then they go get four more. Are you kidding me? They got Ogbah and Nassib, who are good, and I think Shon Coleman is going to be a pro-bowl calibre tackle for them. Rashad Higgins was a straight up baller in college. But, everyone else is a miss. I know the receiving corps was bad, but four receivers, just seems like overkill.

    It's one thing to rebuild the roster. It's a big leap of faith in a whole bunch of 20-25 year olds coming out of college to try and win in the NFL. It sets them up to fail, when the Browns aren't bringing in some sort of veterans to compete. They brought in RG3 this year, and they still have McCown, but they need more than just 14 kids to win in the NFL.The free agents they do bring in, are overpriced, and of generally bad quality. As it is Austin Pasztor (!!!) has a significant chance of getting starter reps. They had a good receiver in Travis Benjamin and they let him walk.They then had to replace him with Coleman --an excellent replacement, since he's the best receiver of this draft -- but a hole which they didn't need to have.

    Kessler's okay. Decent passer. Accurate. But, weak arm and is a game manager. I don't mind having a game manager, but having the second coming of Josh McCown screams mediocrity...and right now, there's a reason, despite 5 -- 5!! -- QBs on the roster already, that the Clowns are already being linked with another QB in next year's draft. Maybe they didn't want to offend Ohio State fans by bringing in the one QB who destroyed their dreams of making the CFP. Kessler's good, but better than Connor Cook? Nah, not buying that at all. Here's the rub: if the Browns truly had an analytics approach to things...they would have realised all the teams picking 94-98 already had their QBs. They could have made a play for Justin Simmons at 93 -- the steal of the draft, helped their secondary a ton, and still had room to pick up QB and LB at 99 and 100. Instead, they'll have to start Rahim Moore, have Kessler and traded down some more. Great analytics. Fantastic stuff.

    You can't even make it up.

    I can sort of understand why they kept on trading back...but it just seems they got too cute with it. Even before the trade with the Eagles, they had the most picks in the draft! The secondary is ruins! Ramsey's there at 2. Tunsil's there at 2. You have the pick of the non-QB litter! It's the Julio Jones trade, all over again.

    Okay, they moved down to 8, and Buckner was off the board...but what about Vernon Hargreaves, or even Leonard Floyd?. Heck even Conklin. (could understand why they didn't want to get Tunsil...with what transpired...whole Johnny Manziel/Josh Gordon thing hits too close to home.) It's not who was picked up but who was left on the board. Shoot, after that, they traded all the way down to 15, which took them out of the conversation for Hargreaves, Floyd, Conklin, Tunsil and Sheldon Rankins and Karl Joseph. At 15, they could have had Ryan Kelly, or Shaq Lawson, even a William Jackson III who would have helped their secondary but no. This is the Browns. New Year, same old rubbish. Instead they're drafting a much inferior corner in the freaking fifth round!! Instead, they're picking up Schobert at the top of the fourth round, and hoping he can covert to an ILB. (not a bad linebacker, but has a laundry list of negatives as an OLB and quite frankly, isn't the answer there. Maybe he looks to be a better Will though). Still leaves Kruger and Mingo as their main source of pass rush. Yikes. Instead, they get Scooby Wright III in the seventh and hope he can play fast enough on the first two downs and not be a liability against faster NFL-calibre running backs, and get the field quickly enough some someone else can cover. Great value in the seventh though...he's a good two-down linebacker and that's about it. They signed Dominique Alexander as a UDFA, and he was great in college, but he's not a good mover in space. With all the talented inside and outside linebackers in this class, they came up snake-eyes.

    Of the picks they made, Ogbah's my favourite. But, he'll always be compared to Kevin Dodd, and he has to convert is athleticism into some pass rush. I like him more than Kevin Dodd though. If the Clowns use him as an 3-4 end rather than a 3-4 SLB, they're going to waste him though. Should be a nice nickel DE. At least he's mouldable.

    Kindred is a safety, by the way. Hits very hard, but missed a lot of tackles, and isn't great in coverage. Again, snake-eyes. Never mind the three-round reach on him. This team failed to really address the TE position. Devalve? Really??! A three round reach when 1. Jerell Adams, who can block and catch, suffers a criminal fall, and is on the board until the sixth round...2. The Clowns got a glorified wideout, big-slot guy who's limited as a blocker, when they clearly needed blockers because Barnidge, and whoever the hell they have at TE, can't block. They should have addressed the RB position too . Duke Johnson was alright, but the running game ranked dead-last, and he needs help.

    Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same things over again and expecting different results?

    If you ask me for a quick-fire draft grade, I'd have to say a C+. Good intentions, needs filled to an extent, but with big reaches for inferior talent. I know teams have their own draft boards and traits which they value, but despite the 14 picks, it's hard to love what they did. The fact that the secondary and linebacker corps have not really been improved is very concerning. The Browns are building for the future and went for raw and athletic players -- nothing wrong with that -- but sometimes, they tried to be too cute with it. I know it's too early for draft grade and reactions, but I don't think the Clowns are the winners of the draft that everybody seems to think they are. 5/16 starters is ordinarily considered a great class, but out of fourteen picks, with a whole bunch of comp picks and picks (originally) in the top two of each rounds, should mean that they get more starters. What ultimately shapes this judgement is the fact that they had the chance to pick a generational player in Ramsey and moved out of a position to draft him.


    and only then, because the roster depth is awful, has to be concerning.
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    This Jags fan can vouch for Austin Pasztor being an absolutely tragic RT, the Jags had a line of turnstiles in the 13 season when he regularly started and he still stood out as a particular aberration.

    I think the Browns deserve more credit than you're giving them. It looks to me like a Jags style rebuild; they know they don't have a competitive team so a 1st round QB is probably going to get his confidence destroyed a la Blaine Gabbert, and therefore be terrible so they are looking to get some pieces in around someone with experience who may or may not pan out. They'll have a horrible season this year unless RGIII returns to Rookie form and take another top pick, then they can get their QB of the future and really start building. (I have no idea about the potential quality of the 2017 QB Class) The draft is a crapshoot so they hedged their bets this year. It still doesn't explain why they didn't draft players in the secondary but I think they have a plan.

    The Jags traded Eugene Monroe and let a bunch of veterans walk; they reaped the cap rewards this season and came in with a monster free agent haul when they thought the team was in competitive shape.
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    (Original post by Wattsy)
    This Jags fan can vouch for Austin Pasztor being an absolutely tragic RT, the Jags had a line of turnstiles in the 13 season when he regularly started and he still stood out as a particular aberration.

    I think the Browns deserve more credit than you're giving them. It looks to me like a Jags style rebuild; they know they don't have a competitive team so a 1st round QB is probably going to get his confidence destroyed a la Blaine Gabbert, and therefore be terrible so they are looking to get some pieces in around someone with experience who may or may not pan out. They'll have a horrible season this year unless RGIII returns to Rookie form and take another top pick, then they can get their QB of the future and really start building. (I have no idea about the potential quality of the 2017 QB Class) The draft is a crapshoot so they hedged their bets this year. It still doesn't explain why they didn't draft players in the secondary but I think they have a plan.

    The Jags traded Eugene Monroe and let a bunch of veterans walk; they reaped the cap rewards this season and came in with a monster free agent haul when they thought the team was in competitive shape.
    One other thing, and here's the rub. At #32, the Browns had the pick of the litter. They get Ogbah, which is fine in a vacuum. A player who could have been their pick at #2, and one you'd hope they were seriously considering, is available. He can play from day 1 and improve the linebacking corps, as well as lead it for at least five years. All after the news that he didn't need microfracture surgery after all! If you're building for the future, Jaylon Smith -- another top5 talent -- can play in 2017. They passed on both. Screw this analytics rubbish. If there's a top5 player and he's there at the bottom of the first or the very top of the second, get him. Don't over think. Get him. And ILB was a position of desperate need. What's the 2017 class at ILB going to look like, anyway? Rueben Foster, maybe? He's a good player for Alabama, but he's not a Myles Jack or Jaylon Smith.

    It the question whether you believe a bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush. Effectively, the Browns have punted on this year, for the promise of something greater next year. There's no guarantee that the top players like Cam Robinson, Myles Garrett, Carl Lawson are going to declare since they're all underclassmen. Ditto Leonard Fournette, Christian McCaffrey, Davin Cook and Nick Chubb. This year's running back class was pretty dang deep and talent, and they passed up the opportunity to draft any of them! What's the plan there? Everyone expected Jonathan Allen to declare after his junior year, and he's back at Alabama next year. Surprises can and do happen. Now, their ILB spot is being filled by Scooby Wright!

    Right now, and will change a lot, the top draft-eligible QBs next year is Chad Kelly and Deshun Watson. They punted on a franchise QB at 2. They punted on Connor Cook at the top of rounds 2 and 3, before settling on Cody freaking Kessler. So, that tells you QB was a need, but clearly a sixth-round calibre backup in the third, with Connor Cook on the board is the order of the day. What's the gameplan? Hope RG3 and McCown pan out? They punted on Carson Wentz or Jarred Goff, as a franchise guy!! This QB draft was deeper and more talented than given credit for. No one knows who the surprise riser at QB next year could be. A quick take after the 2014 draft had Cardale Jones, Christian Hackenberg and Connor Cook as first round talents. It was those three and then Jarred Goff.

    There's also something wrong with their board, when Hollywood Higgins and Jordan Payton were chosen behind a WR/TE conversion prospect from Princeton, of all places, and Ricardo Louis...a glorified kick returner. Both had no business in the fourth. Especially when Higgins and Payton were fifth round picks.

    If it's a philosophy, where was it in action? Is it fast and phyiscal? Is it "exotic-smashmouth" like Tennessee? They get faster at WR and at OLB, and maybe even DE. They somehow manage to get slower at ILB, not address RB, or properly address TE, and screw up having 14 picks, because they reached on marginal talent!!! I mean, a conversion prospect WR doesn't count...and why was he ranked ahead of Jerell Adams, a proper old-school TE who prides himself on blocking and is able to stretch the seam.


    The thing is Wattsy, at least the Jags had some of plan. Clear out under-performing players, get better in the trenches, get better at WR (Hello...Allen Robinson!)...get their franchise QB even when people considered it a reach... get better at linebacker, and made moves to do so, after the horrible 2012 draft. (Seriously, thanks for Brandon M. Marshall though...Myles Jack, Brandon M. Marshall and Telvin Smith...now that's the best LB corps in the league). They built through free agency, surrounding Bortles with talent. They weren't afraid to take their lumps at QB and still spend another first rounder, even though they came up snake-eyes with Blaine Gabbert. If there's a chance of taking a franchise guy...you have to take him!!

    Instead, the Browns punted on that decision, and it makes it really hard to like what they did...
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    Yeah that's also fair. DC told you the plan he said we're going after LT then QB then EDGE in the first rounds of years 1,2 and 3. After that he'd be filling in other needs as they arose. Hue Jackson has said 'trust me.' I can understand the apprehension. The Browns have been burned by dysfunctional front offices far too many times.

    I don't know college talent in all fairness, I know about the Top 50 players or so in each draft and that's through analysts perspectives; I won't pretend to know what I'm evaluating outside of skill position players. We'll see won't we. I think they're going to be really really 1-15 sort of awful this year though if RGIII is still RGme or gets injured because his offensive line is a shitshow outside of Joe Thomas who just can't block all 4 guys every down. I'd be so pissed if I was Joe Thomas though, that dude IS Cleveland and he gets **** all success for his considerable efforts.
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    I think the Browns' draft was, while not necessarily great, fairly defensible. And bear in mind that I haven't watched most of these players for the most part so I can only talk in broad strokes.

    1. I think drafting a tackle in the first was clearly not a priority, since it's just using your first round pick to save a few pennies instead of just resigning Schwarz. They did that in the mid-rounds instead, which saves more pennies and requires less draft capital.

    2. In terms of addressing needs, WR was a bigger one than CB in my opinion, but it's always hard to evaluate things like that because you don't know the internal opinions of people like Justin Gilbert, Tramon Williams, Haden's health, etc.. They clearly addressed this need.

    3. It could be that their FO doesn't really believe in drafting running backs in most circumstances. Obviously it's accepted that some positions have inherent value over others. It's the job of coaches and analytics people to qualify and quantify those circumstances respectively.

    4. To hear Sashi Brown talk, it appears that their overarching philosophy is on "high character," and that's very hard to evaluate for those of us who don't interview players and get our information from the media. I'm not really inclined to comment on that, but it could explain why they weren't interested in Cook.

    5. I did watch Kessler against Stanford and in one other game. The offense is mostly designed to allow him to make easy throws from an arm talent standpoint, but on one play he drives the ball 20 yards in the air to a sideline curl from the far hash without a long wind up or follow through. Obviously he's not Lynch or Wentz, but his arm only needs a little improvement if any, and I don't subscribe to the notion that it can't be improved. He makes consistently outstanding decisions and executes them well but doesn't place the ball as well as Goff. More composed in the pocket than Lynch. I wouldn't be shocked if he starts immediately and does well.

    6. The Browns O line has actually been very good with Greco, Mack, Bitonio and Schwarz, but their skill players and defensive depth let them down. It will take a step back this year, presumably, but it remains to seen to what extent. Someone needs to actually run behind it as if they care though. Last year the Browns were a case study in the fact that running backs are still not 100% replaceable.

    7. They actually addressed ILB in free agency when they got Demario Davis. Not a glamorous signing, but it's not like this Scooby guy is the only one there. He might not even make the team.
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    Looking more and more likely Tom won't win the appeal, chance of a en banc is really very small. Which sucks because Brady has been completely ****ed over in this witch hunt. And yet other moron fan bases will do anything to believe they did wrong.
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    (Original post by Malevolent)
    Looking more and more likely Tom won't win the appeal, chance of a en banc is really very small. Which sucks because Brady has been completely ****ed over in this witch hunt. And yet other moron fan bases will do anything to believe they did wrong.
    Dunno, I'm optimistic- they've added some heavyweights to their legal team, and I think it helps that it was the court's chief justice who dissented in their favour on the last appeal. Plus from what I've read they're changing their strategy somewhat to stop focusing on hyper technicalities in the CBA and more on how much Roger Goodell just completely took a dump on due process.
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    The problem is the appeal court ruled that the CBA explicitly allows Goodell to take as many dumps on due process as he wants.

    Brady should sue for defamation in my opinion. I wondered during the Berman hearings if a credible defamation suit (and I don't think anyone could seriously argue that Brady hasn't been defamed here) might make the NFL more amenable to a settlement.
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    Yeah I'm not even sure they hear the appeal. They get heard >1% of the time apparently and yeah, the CBA gave Goodell God-mode. I have to think that when it comes to renegotiation time Commissioner powers are going to be #1 on the NFLPA priority list.
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    (Original post by SmashConcept)
    The problem is the appeal court ruled that the CBA explicitly allows Goodell to take as many dumps on due process as he wants.

    Brady should sue for defamation in my opinion. I wondered during the Berman hearings if a credible defamation suit (and I don't think anyone could seriously argue that Brady hasn't been defamed here) might make the NFL more amenable to a settlement.
    That's the problem. A contract can't overrule the law. A CBA stating the NFL commissioner can murder players at will wouldn't hold up as a defence in court against murder, for example.
    I've seen numerous legal experts question the appeals ruling as baffling. Regardless of what's in the CBA, Supreme Court precedent states an arbitrator can not deal out their own form of industrial justice. Due process and fairness is paramount.
    That aside, there are also aspects of the CBA that Goodell blatantly did violate! For example, the commissioner cant arbitrate an appeal of his own punishment, nor can he delegate the handing out of punishments simply so he can sit as arbitrator. Interestingly in another case recently an actual independent arbitrator ruled against the NFL in the matter of delegating punishments.
    The CBA also explicitly states the punishments for equipment violations- it's like a $8k fine, not a four game ban, which Goodell ignored (which ties in to industrial justice), and of fair notice.
    I'm normally not one of these armchair internet lawyers who likes to criticise actual professional judges, but holy moly their ruling made absolutely no God-damn sense.

    And yeah, at the very least after he's retired Brady should go for the jugular, because the NFL have legitimately tried to frame him for something not only do they have no evidence for, but science proves that he's innocent (interestingly more than 20 top scientists and academics from universities all over America have just signed an amicus curiae submitted to the court absolutely destroying Exponent's junk science in the Wells Report, wonder if it will do any good).
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    The redskins name debate is amazing a poll what came back saying 9/10 Native Americans don't find it offensive (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...f9a_story.html) yet despite this people are still upset and now 90% of Native Americans are immoral (https://theundefeated.com/features/t...at-isnt-moral/)

    Also the Vikings are going to win the super bowl with mobo having a big year.
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    Malcolm Butler clamouring for a better deal. Boy you better be careful.
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    (Original post by Malevolent)
    Malcolm Butler clamouring for a better deal. Boy you better be careful.
    I looked up the Patriots cap situation as part of another discussion, and Butler doesn't even count towards the cap he is so underpaid.

    The Pats are shrewd, but it's not like their whole roster is making the rookie minimum.
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    (Original post by SmashConcept)
    I looked up the Patriots cap situation as part of another discussion, and Butler doesn't even count towards the cap he is so underpaid.

    The Pats are shrewd, but it's not like their whole roster is making the rookie minimum.
    Yeah he's underpaid but I think he better be careful with regards to holding out and such. Right now he's just one of three who need new deals and honestly I see him as the least important of the three. I think Hightower is the most crucial one at the moment.
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    The AFL-CIO (American Federation of Labour and Congress of Industrial Organisations) has filed an amicus brief to the appeals court supporting Tom Brady, claiming Goodell acted arbitrarily as an employer seeking to justify his own decision rather than a neutral impartial arbitrator.
    Brady now has the support of dozens of top scientists and academics who have debunked the physics behind the NFL's claim, aswell as numerous legal scholars and now the largest union movement in America fighting the NFL's attempt to take a turd on labour rights.
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    Good ****. Goodell and his crooks need to be brought to justice.

    Also Judge Denny Chin and Barrington Parker are *******s. As soon as Parker was selected it was already a forgone conclusion that he would rule against Brady. The guy is so anti labour its funny.
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    Yh but the cba means the commissioner can do this.
 
 
 
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