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    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Well then, you can discuss that with me rather than reiterating what an idiot I must be to bring up Switzerland. In answer to your post, why?
    Did you read the article? it was more about economical affects that your stupid notion of a demilitarised UK. What Switzerland has done is achievable here albeit after a struggle with the EU... do you want an economically strong UK or do you want the UK to bend over and take the EUs schlong up her arse?
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    What Switzerland has done is achievable here albeit after a struggle with the EU... do you want an economically strong UK or do you want the UK to bend over and take the EUs schlong up her arse?
    I love how UKIP and the other anti-EUs members always believe that an isolated Britain will be a powerful one.

    Let's face it; we lost the Empire, and we no longer rule the world. We really are just a small island with 70 million people. Leaving the EU would just make us change to a small insignificant island with 70 million people. At least the EU allows us to have more influence in the world.
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    (Original post by stanlas)
    I love how UKIP and the other anti-EUs members always believe that an isolated Britain will be a powerful one.

    Let's face it; we lost the Empire, and we no longer rule the world. We really are just a small island with 70 million people. Leaving the EU would just make us change to a small insignificant island with 70 million people. At least the EU allows us to have more influence in the world.
    I love how you think I am anti-EU... I am French and Pro-European Union... I just see that the EU is not for the UK and they'd be better off alone with the powers to pull off a Switzerland.

    What do you mean the empire is gone? I still see places that still have the queen as head of state... yes there is no direct rule from Westminster but I'd say the empire is very much alive!
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    I love how you think I am anti-EU... I am French and Pro-European Union... I just see that the EU is not for the UK and they'd be better off alone with the powers to pull off a Switzerland.
    I meant anti-EU from a British perspective (i.e. wanting Britain to pull out of the EU or at least get a lot of powers back). To be honest, I seriously doubt that such an arrangement (becomming the 'new Switzerland') would be negotiable. The real power in negotiations would be in the hands of the EU, and I find it hard to believe that they will grant us a beneficial arrangment (from our point of view).

    (Original post by tehFrance)
    What do you mean the empire is gone? I still see places that still have the queen as head of state... yes there is no direct rule from Westminster but I'd say the empire is very much alive!
    Obviously, we have no real power over these countries other than the symbolic prescence of the Queen. And we are certainly nowhere near as powerful as in the 19th century (or even the early 20th)
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    (Original post by stanlas)
    I love how UKIP and the other anti-EUs members always believe that an isolated Britain will be a powerful one.

    Let's face it; we lost the Empire, and we no longer rule the world. We really are just a small island with 70 million people. Leaving the EU would just make us change to a small insignificant island with 70 million people. At least the EU allows us to have more influence in the world.
    I agree with tehfrance. The UK is better off in a trade deal without the red tape that the EU brings and the flexibility to set its own laws.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    I agree with tehfrance. The UK is better off in a trade deal without the red tape that the EU brings and the flexibility to set its own laws.
    That's all on the assumption that if we leave the EU and stop contributing then other countries will have friendly attitudes towards us and grant us trade deals. Somehow I doubt that they will be well disposed towards us.
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    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Yep, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. Just because we don't like Iran doesn't mean that they shouldn't have nuclear weapons. After all, we can have them, what gives us any more of a right than them?

    The second part of this paragraph is exactly my point. I'm saying that we shouldn't get involved in any wars, and remain neutral. Like Switzerland. When was the last time Switzerland was attacked?
    It's not because we don't like Iran that we don't want them to have nuclear weapons, it's because they're a rogue state with leaders who may do anything and shouldn't be second guessed. They shouldn't have nuclear weapons because of that danger to world security. If we don't get involved, then at times the world would be worse off. You still haven't answered my question properly. Barring nuclear weapons, what parts of the military would you cut?


    My example isn't that ridiculous. The point is that if you were Argentinian you'd be a bit pissed off at someone who's country is miles and miles away owning (sorry JPKC ) a set of islands right on your doorstep. I'm fully aware of the situation in the past, and I'm not suggesting that we give sovereignty of the islands to Argentina. I also don't think we should "give in" to Argentine demands and bullying as you put it, but I do feel that a solution is available that everyone could be happy with.

    Negotiating with Argentina is giving in. They know what they want so any negotiations are a sham.

    Does it sound like I'm a massive colonialist from what I'm saying to toronto?
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    I agree with tehfrance. The UK is better off in a trade deal without the red tape that the EU brings and the flexibility to set its own laws.
    The way you europhobes bang on, you'd think the EU had exhausted the world's supply of red tape and now was using material once reserved for yellow polka-dotted bikinis. I mean, christ, international agreements require guidelines, operational codes, and a piece of paper stating what side a will and what side b will do. Call it red tape, if you like, but it's still necessary.
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    (Original post by stanlas)
    That's all on the assumption that if we leave the EU and stop contributing then other countries will have friendly attitudes towards us and grant us trade deals. Somehow I doubt that they will be well disposed towards us.
    We trade with the EU around as much as they trade with us? They're not going to shoot themselves in the foot by not trading with us. It'll hurt them just as much as it hurts us.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    We trade with the EU around as much as they trade with us? They're not going to shoot themselves in the foot by not trading with us. It'll hurt them just as much as it hurts us.
    The statistics haven't changed since the last time we argued. 60% of our export go to the EU. Therfore, we are dependent on it.
    Meanwhile, about 5% of EU exports go to the UK (Im using Germany as the main example). Hence, the EU is not dependent on us.

    Yes, the EU will 'shoot themselves in the foor' a bit by not letting us into a free trade agreement. But the damage will be much greater to the UK. Also, the EU will have no choice but to keep us out of the free trade area, as otherwise it would lead to a disintegration of the EU (as countries could use the British precident and stop paying, while remaining in the free trade area).
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    Did you read the article? it was more about economical affects that your stupid notion of a demilitarised UK. What Switzerland has done is achievable here albeit after a struggle with the EU... do you want an economically strong UK or do you want the UK to bend over and take the EUs schlong up her arse?
    Yes I read the article. And I did give you an answer. I said no, as I think we should seek closer integration with the EU instead of keeping this air of self importance of ourselves which really isn't relevant anymore. I don't believe a free trade agreement with the EU would be feasible anyway, why would the EU ever agree to that? Then everybody would bloody try it and the EU would disintegrate. So, as you so quaintly put it, I want the EU to bend over and take the EU's schlong up her arse (doggy style), yes.

    Now, I don't believe you answered my question. You said:

    (Original post by you)
    We need and deserve a strong military.
    The question I ask is why? What makes you say that?
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    It's not because we don't like Iran that we don't want them to have nuclear weapons, it's because they're a rogue state with leaders who may do anything and shouldn't be second guessed. They shouldn't have nuclear weapons because of that danger to world security. If we don't get involved, then at times the world would be worse off.
    Well it's all subjective, isn't it? I don't think they think they're a rogue state, the only thing that makes them "rogue" is that they don't share the ideologies of the rest of the world. If we can have nuclear weapons then we can't (without being hypocrites) say they can't.

    You still haven't answered my question properly. Barring nuclear weapons, what parts of the military would you cut?
    Personally I think I'd advocate an overall reduction in manpower in our armed forces, and a general reduction in size of fleets etc. I'm no expert, and I fully admit that, but if I actually had the power I'd consult the relevant experts and advisors to see what forces are really necessary for a sole defence force.
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    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Yes I read the article. And I did give you an answer. I said no, as I think we should seek closer integration with the EU instead of keeping this air of self importance of ourselves which really isn't relevant anymore. I don't believe a free trade agreement with the EU would be feasible anyway, why would the EU ever agree to that?

    I want the EU to bend over and take the EU's schlong up her arse (doggy style), yes.

    The question I ask is why? What makes you say that?
    Considering that the UK still has sway on the world stage so closer integration would be a mistake I feel. A free trade agreement won't be feasible? wtf are you on?

    Virgin alert.

    The UK still has considerable sway on the international stage, the UK has a duty to protect and serve the world from terrorist scumbags that I am sure you as a lefty would let off so they can kill many more innocent people.
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    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Yes I read the article. And I did give you an answer. I said no, as I think we should seek closer integration with the EU instead of keeping this air of self importance of ourselves which really isn't relevant anymore. I don't believe a free trade agreement with the EU would be feasible anyway, why would the EU ever agree to that? Then everybody would bloody try it and the EU would disintegrate. So, as you so quaintly put it, I want the EU to bend over and take the EU's schlong up her arse (doggy style), yes.

    Now, I don't believe you answered my question. You said:



    The question I ask is why? What makes you say that?
    So far then you've advocated UK submission to the EU; Iran having nuclear weapons and Argentina having at least a share of oil profits and negotiating with them, tell me do you honestly see any of these as policies which will win you an election? Going a little further, why are you advocating disarming when you've admitted yourself that you have little idea about that area of politics anyway?
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    Considering that the UK still has sway on the world stage so closer integration would be a mistake I feel. A free trade agreement won't be feasible? wtf are you on?
    Of course a free trade agreement wouldn't be feasible. Stanlas has said it already in the thread, but I'll repeat it for you because I'm a top guy.

    If the UK left the EU and the EU allowed the UK to stay in a free trade agreement then why wouldn't every other country do it? After all, it's essentially trying to take the benefits without paying anything in, which you cannot do. If we were allowed it then everyone else would want to do it, leading to a complete disintegration of the EU.

    Now, seeing as we're significantly more dependent on EU trade than the rest of the EU is on UK trade (as stanlas said, we export 60% to the EU, they only export 5% to us) then the EU would hold all the cards on a possible free trade agreement. And, because of the issue in the previous paragraph, the EU simply wouldn't allow it, so we'd basically be isolating ourselves from the massive EU market. Nice one.

    The UK still has considerable sway on the international stage, the UK has a duty to protect and serve the world from terrorist scumbags that I am sure you as a lefty would let off so they can kill many more innocent people.
    This is just laughable. Yes, as a lefty I want terrorists to blow everyone up. That's obviously why I've displayed such pacifistic tendencies in this thread :rolleyes: I'm not even going to reply to that.
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    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Of course a free trade agreement wouldn't be feasible. Stanlas has said it already in the thread, but I'll repeat it for you because I'm a top guy.

    If the UK left the EU and the EU allowed the UK to stay in a free trade agreement then why wouldn't every other country do it? After all, it's essentially trying to take the benefits without paying anything in, which you cannot do. If we were allowed it then everyone else would want to do it, leading to a complete disintegration of the EU.

    Now, seeing as we're significantly more dependent on EU trade than the rest of the EU is on UK trade (as stanlas said, we export 60% to the EU, they only export 5% to us) then the EU would hold all the cards on a possible free trade agreement. And, because of the issue in the previous paragraph, the EU simply wouldn't allow it, so we'd basically be isolating ourselves from the massive EU market. Nice one.



    This is just laughable. Yes, as a lefty I want terrorists to blow everyone up. That's obviously why I've displayed such pacifistic tendencies in this thread :rolleyes: I'm not even going to reply to that.
    What would be wrong with the EU turning into a free trade bloc as it was originally intended (barring the euro problem)? Why are you so hostile to that idea?
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    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Of course a free trade agreement wouldn't be feasible. Stanlas has said it already in the thread, but I'll repeat it for you because I'm a top guy.

    If the UK left the EU and the EU allowed the UK to stay in a free trade agreement then why wouldn't every other country do it? After all, it's essentially trying to take the benefits without paying anything in, which you cannot do. If we were allowed it then everyone else would want to do it, leading to a complete disintegration of the EU.

    Now, seeing as we're significantly more dependent on EU trade than the rest of the EU is on UK trade (as stanlas said, we export 60% to the EU, they only export 5% to us) then the EU would hold all the cards on a possible free trade agreement. And, because of the issue in the previous paragraph, the EU simply wouldn't allow it, so we'd basically be isolating ourselves from the massive EU market. Nice one.
    Why should any country have to pay to be part of a free trade agreement? The entire argument (which I have to say I'm quite sceptical of) is that they are mutually beneficial.

    And you guys are completely underestimating the value of the UK to the rest of the bloc. We're a big economy, our presence in the EU balances it out significantly - if we were forced out of the trade zone then France and Germany would be left with a host of littler countries that generally are more hungry for EU development cash - the Eastern European and Mediterranean nations. We put in much more funding than we get out, and the free movement policies disadvantage us since our citizens are less prone to travel abroad for better paying work because we already have that here.

    Be under no illusion: Britain could be less involved in Europe without leaving the economic side of things. Scandinavian countries and even political forces in France and Germany would sympathise with us.

    And all of this ignores the one major issue that the EU has which is it's dreadfully undemocratic politics.

    (Original post by stanlas)
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    And you guys are completely underestimating the value of the UK to the rest of the bloc. We're a big economy, our presence in the EU balances it out significantly - if we were forced out of the trade zone then France and Germany would be left with a host of littler countries that generally are more hungry for EU development cash - the Eastern European and Mediterranean nations
    The EU without the UK would still be powerful; Germany, France, Spain and Italy are all major economies (even if the last two are currently in problems; but that won't last forever)

    (Original post by JPKC)
    The free movement policies disadvantage us since our citizens are less prone to travel abroad for better paying work because we already have that here.
    It certainly has benefits for British tourists and emmigrants, who are not insignificant. A;so, extra labour mobility between countries can never be a bad thing for the economy.

    (Original post by JPKC)
    Scandinavian countries and even political forces in France and Germany would sympathise with us.
    I still doubt that the Germans, for example, would sympathise in any way if we stopped paying to the EU budget while still enjoying most of the benefits of the EU. It would mean that the Germans (and indeed, all the other remaining nations) would have to pay in more themselves, hardly something which would win us support

    (Original post by JPKC)
    And all of this ignores the one major issue that the EU has which is it's dreadfully undemocratic politics.
    I fully agree on the relative lack of democracy. However, the answer is simply to reform the electoral system, and not to start getting powers back from the EU
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    (Original post by stanlas)
    The EU without the UK would still be powerful; Germany, France, Spain and Italy are all major economies (even if the last two are currently in problems; but that won't last forever)


    It certainly has benefits for British tourists and emmigrants, who are not insignificant. A;so, extra labour mobility between countries can never be a bad thing for the economy.


    I still doubt that the Germans, for example, would sympathise in any way if we stopped paying to the EU budget while still enjoying most of the benefits of the EU. It would mean that the Germans (and indeed, all the other remaining nations) would have to pay in more themselves, hardly something which would win us support


    I fully agree on the relative lack of democracy. However, the answer is simply to reform the electoral system, and not to start getting powers back from the EU
    Do you support a Federal Europe then? I'm puzzled as to why you're opposed to Britain having her own powers back. Tell me, what is so wrong with Britain taking back British powers.
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    The Democratic Deficit could be addressed by making the President of the European Council directly elected aswell as the Commission President in Europe-wide ballots.
 
 
 
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