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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV Watch

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    (Original post by Observatory)
    That depends on one's goal. If the goal is to live a safe, productive life in peace the optimum solution would be for the Palestinians to surrender entirely to Israel in exchange for Israeli citizenship.
    I believe the Palestinians would welcome this. What about the 5+ million Palestinian refugees, would they also acquire Israeli citizenship?

    Eternal war only makes sense if the goal is to conquer land, and the reason they want to do that is Islamic chauvinism: they refuse to recognise Israel or its control of Jerusalem because they regard that land as rightfully muslim.
    This has nothing to do with being a Muslim. It could be a Christian and the result would be the same. The fact is that mass immigration of Jewish persons took place and then they demanded their own state.

    Military conquest no one can dispute or claim against but to actually demand a state from those who have initially welcomed you due to persecution from European states and overwhelming the local population in order to give effect to such a state is a heinous crime.

    I see no reason to regard satisfying the irredentist ambitions of chauvinistic Islam as desirable. I can understand why people indoctrinated from an early age in Islam would do so, but I find their agnostic western apologists much more perplexing.
    But the Muslims are not making that claim. It's the Jews or to be more accurate, the Zionists. They are the one who were/are saying the State of Israel should exist because "Jews were there 3,000 years ago" and "we need a homeland".
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    We have already agreed that Abbas is useless and the Palestinians should look to HAMAS if they want to resist further Israeli aggression.
    Correction: the Palestinians should look to Hamas if they want further Israeli aggression.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Correction: the Palestinians should look to Hamas if they want further Israeli aggression.
    And the reason for Israeli aggression against HAMAS is because Israel doesn't like the fact that it actively resists...
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Correction: the Palestinians should look to Hamas if they want further Israeli aggression.
    Oh yeah, the Palestinians should instead just accept their fate as being sub-human citizens as is the case in the West Bank, thereby permitting even more Illegal Settlement expansions, "Jew-Only Roads", Checkpoints just to go to school etc.etc. The list goes on.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    And the reason for Israeli aggression against HAMAS is because Israel doesn't like the fact that it actively resists...
    They don't like the fact that they try to kill random Israeli civilians in order to further a toxic Islamist agenda.
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    (Original post by broscience123)
    Oh yeah, the Palestinians should instead just accept their fate as being sub-human citizens as is the case in the West Bank, thereby permitting even more Illegal Settlement expansions, "Jew-Only Roads", Checkpoints just to go to school etc.etc. The list goes on.
    There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza and neither is there any wish to re-introduce them there.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I believe the Palestinians would welcome this. What about the 5+ million Palestinian refugees, would they also acquire Israeli citizenship?
    Then we have solved the problem, such as it is.

    This has nothing to do with being a Muslim. It could be a Christian and the result would be the same. The fact is that mass immigration of Jewish persons took place and then they demanded their own state.

    Military conquest no one can dispute or claim against but to actually demand a state from those who have initially welcomed you due to persecution from European states and overwhelming the local population in order to give effect to such a state is a heinous crime.
    Of course nationalist chauvinism isn't exclusive to Islam, but it is the cause in this instance, just as German nationalist chauvinism was the cause of Germany's invasion of Poland - land that I remind you used to be part of Germany but 20 years previous!

    But the Muslims are not making that claim. It's the Jews or to be more accurate, the Zionists. They are the one who were/are saying the State of Israel should exist because "Jews were there 3,000 years ago" and "we need a homeland".
    Both of them are advancing irredentist claims justified by appeal to past settlements effected by military means.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    They don't like the fact that they try to kill random Israeli civilians in order to further a toxic Islamist agenda.
    And the Palestinians don't like the fact that Israel doesn't "try to kill", but it actively kills "random [Palestinian] civilians" and imposes a blockade in order to starve Gaza so that it's population submit to Israel.

    You have constantly, as many pro-Israeli supporters do, tried to tie this in with an "Islamism" but the funny fact is that regardless of whether it was a Jew, Christian or a Muslim, the result would have been the same.

    In fact, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that those who are anti-Islam on this forum would readily support HAMAS and the Palestinian struggle against the Zionist aggressiona and occupation if they were either Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, atheists etc, anything but Muslims.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Then we have solved the problem, such as it is.
    Would the Palestinian refugees be given a right to return and acquire Israeli citizenship?

    Of course nationalist chauvinism isn't exclusive to Islam, but it is the cause in this instance, just as German nationalist chauvinism was the cause of Germany's invasion of Poland - land that I remind you used to be part of Germany but 20 years previous!
    You seem to not understand the difference between military conquest and "conquest by mass immigration".

    Both of them are advancing irredentist claims justified by appeal to past settlements effected by military means.
    In your opinion, whose claim is stronger?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza and neither is there any wish to re-introduce them there.
    Prison camps generally aren't desirable places for new build. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Prison camps generally aren't desirable places for new build. :rolleyes:
    Perhaps if Hamas didn't conduct terrorism against its neighbours, they would have more freedom?

    After all, Egypt didn't shut them out on a whim. They did so because of persistent palestinian interference in Egypt and support for Sinai-based terrorists killing Egyptian troops and police.

    It's amazing how supporters of the morally bankrupt palestinians think that they should be entitled to rocket a regional super power and conduct raids against the most populous Arab country - and suffer no consequences :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Would the Palestinian refugees be given a right to return and acquire Israeli citizenship?
    That's just a question of demarcation. I would guess it depends if they have acquired some other citizenship in the meantime.

    You seem to not understand the difference between military conquest and "conquest by mass immigration".
    Immigration is considered legitimate.

    In your opinion, whose claim is stronger?
    I do not think either has any moral strength.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    If at first you don't succeed, try try try again...
    Yep, thats the standard islamist mantra - another intifada will = another 2-5000 dead muslims in palestine. no worries, becuase they are only sacrifical sheep.. sorry 'shaheeds' that advances the 'islamic agenda' which is the most important thing- right?
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    Just a standard palestinian bathroom.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d60_1406368795


    Of course they don't use the civilian infrastructure for terrorism according to Jeremy Bowen :rolleyes:
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    http://www.dailydot.com/politics/isr...se-inaccurate/

    Anyone else not surprised by this? The policy of Israel is usually "kill now, ask questions later".
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    if you listen carefully you can hear them laughing

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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    They don't like the fact that they try to kill random Israeli civilians in order to further a toxic Islamist agenda.
    Agreed. It is only ok for Israel to kill Palestinian civillians cos Israelis are superior and all dat innit.

    E.g.
    http://www.jewishjournal.com/israel/...aeli_war_crime
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    Funny, no word yet from the Hasbara peeps. Usually they are flocking to the threads involving Palestine. I'll just take their silence as support for the disgraceful Settlers.
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    It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...after-all.html

    so the attacks on gaza was just to fulfil Israelis lust for palastinian blood
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    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...teens-afterall

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...after-all.html

    was blaming HAMAS just an excuse to fulfil israels lust for palastinian blood?
 
 
 
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