Turn on thread page Beta
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Toaster Leavings)
    I'm proud of my heritage and my family ties and to a larger extent I am proud of certain aspects of my country. I'm not blind however to it's shortcomings both historically and in it's current state. Patriotism does not mean by any stretch blind love for your country, unfortunately that's just how some idiots tend to go about it.

    It's not exactly about seeing your country as 'better' necessarily it's rather that you identify with your surroundings and like-minded peoples and support and are proud of them if they do well. I don't see how that is irrational or wrong? Of course you are going to feel more strongly about the people and place where you were born and raised rather than somewhere you've never been, it's common sense frankly. We are defined in many ways by our nationality both within ourselves and the eyes of others in different countries.
    I do not see myself as defined by my nationality, why would I confine myself to that? Well if you want to reduce patriotism to liking good things about your country, then ok thats fine. Maybe it is just me but thats just not what I would take the word to mean!

    I honestly think there are as many like-minded people in Afghanistan as in England and also why would I want to identify with them? I love going to interesting places, especially India, to surround myself with the unfamiliar and the different. I do not want everybody to try to be one caste ofperson in one country!

    I do not feel more strongly about somebody from Rossendale getting killed than somebody in Kabul getting killed, my feelings just are not stronger.

    Also emotional is not rational so its probably best to leave it out of arguments.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Toaster Leavings)
    As I said before this is just the same as saying 'why take pride in the achievements of your family and friends that you had no part in creating'.
    I guess you can be proud of the fact that you picked that person to be your friend and look what a good choice they are because of this amazing achievement. With family there is no defence though.

    Personally I would only be proud of family or friends if I had had a part in it.

    This may sound extremely selfish but I just think I am realistic, I think everything everybody does ultimately is designed to give themselves satisfaction. I am just being more honest about it and refusing to grant myself satisfaction for something I have no part in.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PNEJOE)
    I do not see myself as defined by my nationality, why would I confine myself to that? Well if you want to reduce patriotism to liking good things about your country, then ok thats fine. Maybe it is just me but thats just not what I would take the word to mean!

    I honestly think there are as many like-minded people in Afghanistan as in England and also why would I want to identify with them? I love going to interesting places, especially India, to surround myself with the unfamiliar and the different. I do not want everybody to try to be one caste ofperson in one country!

    I do not feel more strongly about somebody from Rossendale getting killed than somebody in Kabul getting killed, my feelings just are not stronger.

    Also emotional is not rational so its probably best to leave it out of arguments.
    You have an unwarranted sense of self-importance. You may not 'want to confine yourself' but if you were born and raised British (I'm assuming here?) you are confined. In those interesting places you went to you went as a British citizen and that has all sorts of feelings and connotations attached to it to the eyes and minds of others in different countries. That is what I mean by being defined by your nationality, it's unavoidable and you are not that much of an individualist to be over and above that!
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PNEJOE)
    I guess you can be proud of the fact that you picked that person to be your friend and look what a good choice they are because of this amazing achievement. With family there is no defence though.

    Personally I would only be proud of family or friends if I had had a part in it.

    This may sound extremely selfish but I just think I am realistic, I think everything everybody does ultimately is designed to give themselves satisfaction. I am just being more honest about it and refusing to grant myself satisfaction for something I have no part in.
    Well that is rather selfish but please don't tar everyone with the same brush! I am very much proud of friends and family who achieve good things even though I had no part in it. I suppose this gives me satisfaction too in that it makes me happy to be proud and perhaps that is what patriotism is all about. It's not inherently silly though, as many in this thread seem to believe.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Toaster Leavings)
    You have an unwarranted sense of self-importance. You may not 'want to confine yourself' but if you were born and raised British (I'm assuming here?) you are confined. In those interesting places you went to you went as a British citizen and that has all sorts of feelings and connotations attached to it to the eyes and minds of others in different countries. That is what I mean by being defined by your nationality, it's unavoidable and you are not that much of an individualist to be over and above that!
    People can attach what ever feelings and connotations to 'nationality' that they want why would I let that define me.

    I do not even see the need for nation states philosophically speaking! So why should I let an idea I disagree with define me just because other people agree with it.

    I am not saying I am above that, I am saying it has no meaning.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Toaster Leavings)
    Well that is rather selfish but please don't tar everyone with the same brush! I am very much proud of friends and family who achieve good things even though I had no part in it. I suppose this gives me satisfaction too in that it makes me happy to be proud and perhaps that is what patriotism is all about. It's not inherently silly though, as many in this thread seem to believe.
    So yes you are just doing it for your own happiness.

    With myself, by not being patriotic or proud of things I do not influence I am denying myself and happiness I do not deserve. I believe I can only claim credit and satisfaction from something I actually did!

    The main beef I have with patriotism is not with people like you, this is just an interesting argument, realistically I am not dead set against your ideas. I am against patriotism that is merely a way of veiling jingois and supremecism. Which I am sure you can see is so often the case.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PNEJOE)
    People can attach what ever feelings and connotations to 'nationality' that they want why would I let that define me.

    I do not even see the need for nation states philosophically speaking! So why should I let an idea I disagree with define me just because other people agree with it.

    I am not saying I am above that, I am saying it has no meaning.
    Well, I personally believe we're products of our environment coupled with our relative positions compared to others. I think an individual could only say they're not in anyway defined by their State either morally or socially would have to live in a world where there WAS no State.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Toaster Leavings)
    Well, I personally believe we're products of our environment coupled with our relative positions compared to others. I think an individual could only say they're not in anyway defined by their State either morally or socially would have to live in a world where there WAS no State.
    I do actually agree with this statement, so you have either misunderstood or I have poorly explained my position.

    I do not think me saying I do not want to be defined by other peoples views of my country and the connotations attached to my nationality is the same as me saying personally I am not influenced by my state.

    However, I think this point just about works but do not crucify me if it does not because I'm tired haha:

    There is no use for the word State in your reply, yes my personality is influenced by my environment I am sure. It is of course influenced more by people I come into more contact with, this would be the same regardless of whether nation states exist or not. In fact I draw my influences from all over the place and while the existence of nation states with seperate languages and cultures might place some barriers on whom an what I am influenced by that does not mean I am defined in any way by my state.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PNEJOE)
    I do actually agree with this statement, so you have either misunderstood or I have poorly explained my position.

    I do not think me saying I do not want to be defined by other peoples views of my country and the connotations attached to my nationality is the same as me saying personally I am not influenced by my state.

    However, I think this point just about works but do not crucify me if it does not because I'm tired haha:

    There is no use for the word State in your reply, yes my personality is influenced by my environment I am sure. It is of course influenced more by people I come into more contact with, this would be the same regardless of whether nation states exist or not. In fact I draw my influences from all over the place and while the existence of nation states with seperate languages and cultures might place some barriers on whom an what I am influenced by that does not mean I am defined in any way by my state.
    Hmmm, it makes sense but I find it difficult to believe. That may be because I identify very strongly with 'British' culture. I think I could be a poster girl for a quintessential Brit.... and it seems odd that someone born and raised in this country (I've assumed you have been) would not find themselves being "British" in many ways. I do wonder how far you really do disassociate from British culture and values, despite what you say. It's impossible for me to know either way of course
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Toaster Leavings)
    Hmmm, it makes sense but I find it difficult to believe. That may be because I identify very strongly with 'British' culture. I think I could be a poster girl for a quintessential Brit.... and it seems odd that someone born and raised in this country (I've assumed you have been) would not find themselves being "British" in many ways. I do wonder how far you really do disassociate from British culture and values, despite what you say. It's impossible for me to know either way of course
    Perhaps I've gone too far down an argument just for the sake of it.

    What I was originally taking exception to was the 'patriotic' sentiment expressed in the first post and in many posts since. Patriotism is often just irrational shouting about your only country and in many cases (watch a bit of Fox news) its just jingoism and fascism.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Xerophelistica)
    Because your ancestors did? You can be proud of your parents for various reasons, parents can be proud of their children for various reasons, so what's to stop you from being proud of your great-great etc. grandparents?
    Maybe because ive never met them...
    Although it may have something to do with the fact that I have ancestors all over europe.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    So you can only be proud of things that are about you.

    I will feel sorry for your children if/when or if you already have them. Surley you can not show them love and pride in them when they do well. My parents did.

    Joe I am having a very wild guess (due to the PNE in your name) that you support Preston North End football club. If you do, are you proud of your club, the fans and what not. If so why??. You done nothing for them (I am guessing) So why be proud of them.

    (if you do not support them ignore the above, the first three letters just by sheer coincidence share their meaning with a English football club).

    Will you change your view, I do not expect you to whatever others may say. You think I am wrong, take pride in where I come from. You may not. So be it.

    Tasha C has also proved a point that I can understand. See my family can trace its roots back all the way back to 1066. I am proud that I can have such a rich history and culture in this land. You may not think that way and I am not going to debate it. We are both to entrenched in our views that neither will change.

    I also see that lovely F word the left loves to spout when they wish. So being proud to be English am I all of a sudden a Fascist. Does you label of fascism cover, the Chinese, the Tibetans. No wait surely with the laters case they should just fall in. They are not all the Dalai Lama so why should they take pride for their independence.

    As was stated above before. Students (thank god I am not one) are on the whole left wing. The left (not always) diminishes patriotism. (fair enough). Thats why many on here are not patriotic. So be it. I am, shout me down for it, put me in a cage, call me fascist, call me a idiot. I am not changing for nobody.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Welsh_insomniac)
    I'm sorry but you're wrong. Wales has never been a fully independant country. Do you not know of Owain Glyndwr? The great Welsh man who revolted against the English in the 14th Century? Well... he failed. Wales has been attatched to England.

    But that's fine. The UK is a country. It's four constituencies are technically not. I'm Welsh, so I'm certainly not bias or anything :p: But I had to make the point clear.
    Glyndwr was a legand, even if he failled.
    And my friends Dad was acctaully one of his late followers who bombed up lleweryn, yes he is a terrorist....
    But Wales is not a region, and if Wales is not a country neither is England. And when you type in Wales in the encyclopedia/google...it says "a country within the UK" so I still say that Wales is a country!
    and you sound like one of them ppl who is not "proud" of being welsh and generally doesn't givve a damb about being welsh/british or even english. But I am one who is. And telling me that I'm not welsh/say that talking welsh is rubish and that its not even a language and thats it a waste of time, is the biggest insults ever!! And I generally think that my mates have a point after reading the comments I get on this!!
    I'm not really botherd if Wales will not be indipendant or never has...It is still the country I live in. And it is not a part of England!!! I hate being refered to as English, f***ing hate it!!
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bagration)
    Does not compute.
    I never claimed to be one myself haha. But perhaps you have a point.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by x_dwin_ffeimys_x)
    Glyndwr was a legand, even if he failled.
    And my friends Dad was acctaully one of his late followers who bombed up lleweryn, yes he is a terrorist....
    But Wales is not a region, and if Wales is not a country neither is England. And when you type in Wales in the encyclopedia/google...it says "a country within the UK" so I still say that Wales is a country!
    and you sound like one of them ppl who is not "proud" of being welsh and generally doesn't givve a damb about being welsh/british or even english. But I am one who is. And telling me that I'm not welsh/say that talking welsh is rubish and that its not even a language and thats it a waste of time, is the biggest insults ever!! And I generally think that my mates have a point after reading the comments I get on this!!
    I'm not really botherd if Wales will not be indipendant or never has...It is still the country I live in. And it is not a part of England!!! I hate being refered to as English, f***ing hate it!!
    Wales is a country that is part of the United Kingdom. You are not English and long may we keep it that way
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mrst269)
    Wales is a country that is part of the United Kingdom. You are not English and long may we keep it that way
    Thank you!!!
    I'll rep you for that!!
    haha
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by x_dwin_ffeimys_x)
    Glyndwr was a legand, even if he failled.
    And my friends Dad was acctaully one of his late followers who bombed up lleweryn, yes he is a terrorist....
    But Wales is not a region, and if Wales is not a country neither is England. And when you type in Wales in the encyclopedia/google...it says "a country within the UK" so I still say that Wales is a country!
    and you sound like one of them ppl who is not "proud" of being welsh and generally doesn't givve a damb about being welsh/british or even english. But I am one who is. And telling me that I'm not welsh/say that talking welsh is rubish and that its not even a language and thats it a waste of time, is the biggest insults ever!! And I generally think that my mates have a point after reading the comments I get on this!!
    I'm not really botherd if Wales will not be indipendant or never has...It is still the country I live in. And it is not a part of England!!! I hate being refered to as English, f***ing hate it!!
    I do take my pride in growing up in it's capital, Cardiff. I also take great pride in being British. But depsite my love for each part of the UK, you must realise that neither of them are countries in their own right. It doesn't matter how much you love Wales, but there's nothing wrong with that. Because the great thing about the UK is the diversity within the British people.

    You are Welsh, I'm not saying you're not. But that isn't the country you're born into. You're just as much European as you are Welsh, or British. Plus, there's nothing wrong with England. I think it's a beautiful place, and one of which I'm glad to have a shared heritage

    I'm sorry you're so repulsed by some parts of the UK. Personally I think we have it really great. It's better being next to England than it is next to say, Turkmenistan

    Where in Wales are you from, btw?
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    Welsh nationalists are so funny. Sure, Wales probably has all the attributes of being a country, but then so would Yorkshire if it had some degree of autonomy. Most places in the world could reasonably define themselves as being a country minus political independence or autonomy.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    It's not silly to be proud of your country.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Christian_j)
    Chavs are quite a large percentage of society these days I reckon.

    As I say though, I'm proud of people and certain individuals/things rather than the country as a whole.
    nice evidence there, einstein.
    you dope
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: October 14, 2009
Poll
Black Friday: Yay or Nay?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.