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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Blah blah blah
    This has become pointless.

    Nobody else on this thread believes anything you say. You don't believe anything anyone else says. Everyone else believes you to be an idiot. You believe everyone else to be idiots. Your mind will not be changed. Neither will anyone else's. You believe everyone that disagrees with you to be a UFC fanboy. Everyone else believes you to be a delusional TCMA freak.

    Every point that anyone makes - you contradict and tell people to STFU. Any point that you make is believed by others to be rambling nonsense.

    Seriously - what is the point in any more discussion?
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    (Original post by Clip)
    This has become pointless.

    Nobody else on this thread believes anything you say. You don't believe anything anyone else says. Everyone else believes you to be an idiot. You believe everyone else to be idiots. Your mind will not be changed. Neither will anyone else's. You believe everyone that disagrees with you to be a UFC fanboy. Everyone else believes you to be a delusional TCMA freak.

    Every point that anyone makes - you contradict and tell people to STFU. Any point that you make is believed by others to be rambling nonsense.

    Seriously - what is the point in any more discussion?
    Do i disbelieve anything anyone else says? No

    Do i disbelieve anything a dimwit that thinks the sport of ufc is equivalent to martial arts, says? Sure, not just me either.

    I contradicted whatever point you made by providing detail and reasoning, take my last post for example. I agree if you have no answer to any of that, then the discussion has reached its conclusion,
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    it is not a soley ground based wrestle fest like judo
    ...

    I don't even...
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Do i disbelieve anything anyone else says? No

    Do i disbelieve anything a dimwit that thinks the sport of ufc is equivalent to martial arts, says? Sure, not just me either.

    I contradicted whatever point you made by providing detail and reasoning, take my last post for example. I agree if you have no answer to any of that, then the discussion has reached its conclusion,
    Case in point. You can't even accept what you can't accept.

    You're not going to change anyone's mind, and clearly no one is going to change yours. Clearly all you want to do is rant, insult people and show off how clever you are.

    Do what you want.
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    (Original post by Clip)
    Case in point. You can't even accept what you can't accept.

    You're not going to change anyone's mind, and clearly no one is going to change yours. Clearly all you want to do is rant, insult people and show off how clever you are.

    Do what you want.
    I have no interest in showing how clever i am or am not. Clearly the intelligence levels in MMA fans have plummetted dramatically since when i began my training.
    Wind back to the start of this discussion and you will see a collection of dimwits who A. think that mma and ufc traning is the ultimate in martial arts - i simply pointed out it is nothing like martial arts - which still stands - they effectively are on a watered down martial arts for beginners crash course.
    B. that there is no ground fighting in kung fu - disproved to you directly with various posts and clips ala the below

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX8ry...eature=related

    C. That bjj/judo is invincible in martial arts terms -which made me laugh the most- i train bjj and am very happy with it. Only a moron, like the few i read here on this thread would make such a statement; for their own petty egos sake more than anything. It is an effective style particularly in competition - i wouldnt use it in a live scenario as a first choice in terms of defending myself, there are far more effective methods of avoiding damage/delivering damage in the course of defending myself - found in various martial arts styles. If i was stripped half naked and needed to roll around a mat in a cage, i would probably revert to some JJ.
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    (Original post by Average_Aaron)
    Wow have just come back to this thread. Really blew up


    Anyways guys, I already trained boxing for a few years and got bored.

    I'm thinking of Judo or Tae Kwon Do now...

    Suggestions?
    Would do neither of the above - unless you were looking to keep fit, in which case both are highly effective.

    If not and you are looking to attain a level of self defence that is practical, then TKD is highly energy consuming and impractical, particulalry in close quarter. Would suggest kempo, wing tsun over the TKD every time. If you have a boxing background already why not extend to some muay thai too.
    judo is a clinch/grappling ground game sytem, works great in gi on a mat when you can throw yourself around with less risk of injury to ligament or impact to the head- try the same drills on a concrete surface when you might actually need to defend yourself and its far easier to do yourself injury, let alone the other guy. More over against somone that may carry a weapon,walking up and grabbing him by the shirt is pretty brainless. I would always recommend a martial arts system that applies the basic principls of self defence, not what is drilled in a dojo. Think of bareknucle boxing back in the day in which very few fighters bothered punching guys in the head because they would likley break their hands - so it became a body shot discipline - When decent gloves came along - the concept of head-punching was popularised in the sport, because in the ring your hands were protected. sporting judo on rubber mats is not the same as out in the real world - hence why proper self defense sytems focus on balance, staying off the ground in the firstplace and getting up as soon as you can if you do.
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    I'm currently doing Wing Chun, it's amazing, and exactly what I was looking for.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Would do neither of the above - unless you were looking to keep fit, in which case both are highly effective.

    If not and you are looking to attain a level of self defence that is practical, then TKD is highly energy consuming and impractical, particulalry in close quarter. Would suggest kempo, wing tsun over the TKD every time. If you have a boxing background already why not extend to some muay thai too.
    judo is a grappling ground game sytem, works great in gi on a mat when you can throw yourself around with less risk of injury to ligament or impact to the head- try the same drills on a concrete surface when you might actually need to defend yourself and its far easier to do yourself injury, let aone the other guy. Think of bareknucle boxing back in the day in which very few fighters bothered punching guys in the head because they would likley break their hands - so it became a body shot discipline - When decent gloves came along - the concept of head-punching was popularised in the sport, because in the ring your hands were protected. sporting judo on rubber mats is not the same as out in the real world - hence why proper self defense sytems focus on balance, staying off the ground in the firstplace and getting up as soon as you can if you do.
    Don't listen to this moron. He doesn't even know what Judo is. Judo is about 90% stand up and this guy thinks it's a ground based sport. I don't even know what to say. Clueless, stop peddling your out-dated, ineffective systems.

    Why is Judo good for self defence? Someone grabs you from any direction and you can plant them on their backs or their heads, with size not being of particular importance. Then if it does go to the ground you're still well-versed there. Actually, it's pointless even trying to correct you. You'll probably try and tell me that what you said about judo is actually right, despite the fact that you clearly don't know what it looks like.
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    (Original post by joebloom)
    I'm currently doing Wing Chun, it's amazing, and exactly what I was looking for.
    Wing Chun (or Ving Tsun or Wing Tsun or whatever it's called now) is rightly considered the most deadly of martial arts...

    because if you use it in a streetfight, you're a dead man.

    What exactly were you looking for? An entirely ineffective training method shrouded in mysticism and fable and organisationally paralysed by internal politics?


    Below is the infamous video of Emin Boztepe and William Cheung - the two top people in Wing Chun (or VT or WT). You will note their fantastic ground skills and fantastic application of all the principles of WC/VT/WT.

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    (Original post by Clip)
    Wing Chun (or Ving Tsun or Wing Tsun or whatever it's called now) is rightly considered the most deadly of martial arts...

    because if you use it in a streetfight, you're a dead man.

    What exactly were you looking for? An entirely ineffective training method shrouded in mysticism and fable and organisationally paralysed by internal politics?


    Below is the infamous video of Emin Boztepe and William Cheung - the two top people in Wing Chun (or VT or WT). You will note their fantastic ground skills and fantastic application of all the principles of WC/VT/WT.

    I was looking to learn a self defense in martial art, and one of the main forms of Kung Fu. Everything I've learnt so far makes sense even including in real world application, my tutor makes sure that it is relevant and I'm constantly surprised each session by what is capable. My Sifu learned under Grandmaster Ip Chun, who is the eldest son and a living legend of late Great Grandmaster Ip Man, the guy who taught Bruce Lee.

    Are you going to tell me that Bruce Lee was an idiot for learning Wing Chun now? Eventually I want to learn Jeet Kune Do, and have more real-world application in my martial art.

    You seem very biased against Wing Chun, what is it that you study? Why the hate towards Wing Chun?
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    (Original post by joebloom)
    I was looking to learn a self defense in martial art, and one of the main forms of Kung Fu. Everything I've learnt so far makes sense even including in real world application, my tutor makes sure that it is relevant and I'm constantly surprised each session by what is capable. My Sifu learned under Grandmaster Ip Chun, who is the eldest son and a living legend of late Great Grandmaster Ip Man, the guy who taught Bruce Lee.

    Are you going to tell me that Bruce Lee was an idiot for learning Wing Chun now? Eventually I want to learn Jeet Kune Do, and have more real-world application in my martial art.

    You seem very biased against Wing Chun, what is it that you study? Why the hate towards Wing Chun?
    Your going to have to understand very quickly that if you spend time discussing topics like this on tsr, you will come accross the less than gifted kids whose experience extends only to what they watch on tv - this thread is no exception. unfortuantly things like the ufc tv has created a whole generation of teenage bedroom warriors without a clue about real time application of self defence. their knowledge of wing tsun is limited to the clips they email each other of chi sau demos. They have no clue of centre line principles, balance and redirection of resistance, and speed and accuracy of delivery. Nor do they know anything about the other range of kung fu styles and what they involve - but then they wouldnt, because there arnt too many related tv shows on Bravo for them to watch
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Your going to have to understand very quickly that if you spend time discussing topics like this on tsr, you will come accross the less than gifted kids whose experience extends only to what they watch on tv - this thread is no exception. unfortuantly things like the ufc tv has created a whole generation of teenage bedroom warriors without a clue about real time application of self defence. their knowledge of wing tsun is limited to the clips they email each other of chi sau demos. They have no clue of centre line principles, balance and redirection of resistance, and speed and accuracy of delivery. Nor do they know anything about the other range of kung fu styles and what they involve - but then they wouldnt, because there arnt too many related tv shows on Bravo for them to watch
    Well I think that is very well said. I'm still trying to perfect my centre line!
    Everything I've learnt makes sense, from deflection and countering to blocking and stance, even in real world application.

    I apologize for doubting myself even the slightest that I did!
    Repped.
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    Ah, I knew I'd find a rant about WC here.

    I find that WC is possibly berated the most because of the claims that many Chunners make, such as being extremely deadly and superior to other Martial Arts. That itself, shows the lack of respect and humility that some people have to other arts. Thus, MMA fans attempt to strike back by criticising many elements of the system, and continually demanding evidence for it's effectiveness. The mentality seems alike for them all — if it doesn't work in the ring, then it won't work in real life.

    I really can't be bothered to go into details, but if there's a school near you, check it out. Try one of their classes. When you're dedicated to learning it, it'll be efficient. It can take time, but it works.

    However, I do recommend taking up something that covers ground game and grappling, such as Judo or Shuai jiao to supplement WC. Futhermore, I find that a lot of Chunners lack the intensity and conditioning that many MMA fighters have, so it might be a good idea to incorporate boxing into it too. Cross-training helps a lot. If you're from the UK, then I'd suggest trying out Kamon, as it incorporated several BJJ/Boxing techniques into the system.

    There are other greats arts out there too - Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Kyokushin Kaikan, etc.
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    (Original post by The Assassin)
    Ah, I knew I'd find a rant about WC here.

    I find that WC is possibly berated the most because of the claims that many Chunners make, such as being extremely deadly and superior to other Martial Arts. That itself, shows the lack of respect and humility that some people have to other arts. Thus, MMA fans attempt to strike back by criticising many elements of the system, and continually demanding evidence for it's effectiveness. The mentality seems alike for them all — if it doesn't work in the ring, then it won't work in real life.

    I really can't be bothered to go into details, but if there's a school near you, check it out. Try one of their classes. When you're dedicated to learning it, it'll be efficient. It can take time, but it works.

    However, I do recommend taking up something that covers ground game and grappling, such as Judo or Shuai jiao to supplement WC. Futhermore, I find that a lot of Chunners lack the intensity and conditioning that many MMA fighters have, so it might be a good idea to incorporate boxing into it too. Cross-training helps a lot. If you're from the UK, then I'd suggest trying out Kamon, as it incorporated several BJJ/Boxing techniques into the system.

    There are other greats arts out there too - Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Kyokushin Kaikan, etc.
    Persoanlly i have never heard any WT guys brag their style is 'extremely deadly and superior to other Martial Arts' it is a self defence system and works as such. If anything i have only really heard wing tsun people be a lttle disparaging toward older kung fu styles because they deem them too elaborate. As with anything everyone has their partizan loyaties to their own schools- often without much logic behind it. It also desinged for a smaller guy to match a larger more powerful guy (that was the basis all martial arts were formed on) not with force agaisnt force but technique and principle of redirection of force to isolate weakness of your opponent. Thats why technique is more important than conditioning training. But most are in decent shape. Sports based system as used in MMA ignore this because in a sports competiton usually you are pitted against people of your own size and weight group, which is un-natural. The ring is about as far form real life as i could imagine.
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    (Original post by joebloom)
    I was looking to learn a self defense in martial art, and one of the main forms of Kung Fu. Everything I've learnt so far makes sense even including in real world application, my tutor makes sure that it is relevant and I'm constantly surprised each session by what is capable. My Sifu learned under Grandmaster Ip Chun, who is the eldest son and a living legend of late Great Grandmaster Ip Man, the guy who taught Bruce Lee.

    Are you going to tell me that Bruce Lee was an idiot for learning Wing Chun now? Eventually I want to learn Jeet Kune Do, and have more real-world application in my martial art.

    You seem very biased against Wing Chun, what is it that you study? Why the hate towards Wing Chun?
    Without getting into a big Bruce Lee debate, it's not a matter of debate that in creating JKD, one of the Lee's primary points was that Wing Chun had not served him well - and he then went on to develop JKD primarily from a number of combat sports - boxing, judo, fencing and wrestling.

    Lee was a big critic of traditional CMAs and their training methods, and whilst I'm not a big fan of his, if you look at everything that he did post-Jun Fan, he bears much more resemblance to a modern MMA fighter than anything like a traditional Chinese kungfu practitioner.

    This is not really a matter of opinion. Look at what he wrote, and look at what he did. If you are interested in JKD, then whilst starting with Wing Chun isn't the end of the world, it's not really keeping in the spirit of things.

    JKD has two meanings really - the philosophy (which essentially is "you should cross-train" and not stick to a rigid style) and there is also what is taught as JKD, which in most cases is based on Filipino fighting systems.

    What is not in doubt is that Bruce Lee did not believe in what you are currently doing i.e. straight up Wing Chun.

    Personally, I reject Wing Chun because I believe it to be rooted in a wholly ineffective training method (note - I say method - not the techniques), and it is swamped by mysticism and legend, and organisationally paralysed by political infighting. I have yet to meet a single Chunner that does not attend a school where the sifu was not taught by Yip Man. They all have these horrific lineage issues and spend more time fighting about that than anything else.

    And I go back to the video.

    Those are two of the top guys in Wing Chun. What does it look like to you? Where's the Chi Sao? Does that not look like a classic streetfight / MMA fight to you? A takedown followed by a ground and pound (although not done very well)?

    What does this tell you about the nature and pattern of "real" fighting?
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    (Original post by Clip)
    Without getting into a big Bruce Lee debate, it's not a matter of debate that in creating JKD, one of the Lee's primary points was that Wing Chun had not served him well - and he then went on to develop JKD primarily from a number of combat sports - boxing, judo, fencing and wrestling.

    Lee was a big critic of traditional CMAs and their training methods, and whilst I'm not a big fan of his, if you look at everything that he did post-Jun Fan, he bears much more resemblance to a modern MMA fighter than anything like a traditional Chinese kungfu practitioner.

    This is not really a matter of opinion. Look at what he wrote, and look at what he did. If you are interested in JKD, then whilst starting with Wing Chun isn't the end of the world, it's not really keeping in the spirit of things.

    JKD has two meanings really - the philosophy (which essentially is "you should cross-train" and not stick to a rigid style) and there is also what is taught as JKD, which in most cases is based on Filipino fighting systems.

    What is not in doubt is that Bruce Lee did not believe in what you are currently doing i.e. straight up Wing Chun.

    Personally, I reject Wing Chun because I believe it to be rooted in a wholly ineffective training method (note - I say method - not the techniques), and it is swamped by mysticism and legend, and organisationally paralysed by political infighting. I have yet to meet a single Chunner that does not attend a school where the sifu was not taught by Yip Man. They all have these horrific lineage issues and spend more time fighting about that than anything else.

    And I go back to the video.

    Those are two of the top guys in Wing Chun. What does it look like to you? Where's the Chi Sao? Does that not look like a classic streetfight / MMA fight to you? A takedown followed by a ground and pound (although not done very well)?

    What does this tell you about the nature and pattern of "real" fighting?
    A very simplistic and generic googled summarry of JKD. Bruce lee had a problem with the rigidity of wing tsuns training beleiving the "be like water not stone principle" of kung fu wasnt being ahdered too in practice.
    He also said fyi competiton fighting was like "Dry land swimming" ie completly artificial and futile and of course famously differentiated the sports styles 'Do' (as in JuDo) from the proper fighting systems (Su as jitsu). He grew up as a street fighter using kung fu techniques and wanted to apply the best principles of all martial arts to a real time fighting strategy. He felt how ever traditional kung invloved a lot of unecessarrily complicated training and insistance on strict form instead of flexibilty. Most modern martial artists do this by training various styles, long before the emergence of competiton mma. Danny Insanto taught the same principles in his jkd school.

    JKD adopts various principles of Wing Tsun including simulataneous blocking and striking , centre line principle etc as well as ground and trapping techniques which are present in various kung fu systems and fillipino styles such as dumog, and influence from kick/boxing styles like silat and muay thai

    As regards your again ignorance on WT -chi sao is not a fighting technique, -it is a trainig technique to improve speed and reaction to opponents movement and attacks. Why would it be used in sparring.
    And as you have been showed scores of times already on this thread alone - mma was not the first system to use ground self defence techniques, they have been used in kung fu for centuries :facepalm:
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    Kendo! but Tae Kwon Do is fun
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    I don't know if ju-jitsu has been metioned yet, but i've been doing it since i was 8 and i love it!
    Considering trying a new martial art when i start uni in October though as i already have jujitsu black belt. Has anyone tried kick boxing?
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    (Original post by xcatherinex)
    I don't know if ju-jitsu has been metioned yet, but i've been doing it since i was 8 and i love it!
    Considering trying a new martial art when i start uni in October though as i already have jujitsu black belt. Has anyone tried kick boxing?
    Yeah. Kickboxing's great but a bit of it depends on the style of kickboxing, since there's no one style, or set of rules, for it. The kickboxing I use is more muay thai influenced but there are many places that are more influenced by karate and taekwondo.

    It's really good though and it's always good to have a grappling game and a striking game.

    EDIT:

    This may sound a bit creepy (not my fault >_<) but I saw your post in the Bath applicant thread and it's my firm too. I know they have a kickboxing club and I want to join it but I noticed that they fight under rules that don't allow leg kicks or knees which takes out loads of my game because I have a hip impingement, which means that I lack dynamic lateral movement in my legs and so basically can't kick above the waist except for front kicks/push kicks

    EDIT:

    Nevermind, it turns out I can't actually read >_<, not your firm lol.

    EDIT:

    As far as I'm aware all universities fight under the same rules anyway, so doesn't matter where you're going. I'll stop editing my post now...
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    I am considering taking up a martial arts too, and I just wanted to know, what is Judo like?

    What would you advise someone with a bigger build to take?

    And finally what Karate is really worth doing (practical wise) ?

    Thanks
 
 
 
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