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    (Original post by The Mad Dog)
    I think you're missing the point.
    No, not at all, I just want to talk about shills.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Sadly, despite the truth of much of your posting, the world has entered a phase since the 80s where right wing libertarianism and related economic theory has been much on the ascendant, to the point where it succeeded in taking over the established parties of the working classes like the Democrats in the US and Labour here. Most of the leaders from those parties over the last years have been neoliberals, not least people like Ed Balls, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Bill Clinton, etc. So in fact, despite the apparent 'victory' of leftish parties at many points, the reality of their policies has been anything but.
    But the richest countries have had to shift to the right to avoid decline - think how much better the countries which were once part of the USSR are doung now.

    Even China has had to adopt capitalist policies to see the growth it is experiencing , contrast to the depravity in North Korea
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    (Original post by Tactical Nuclear Penguin)
    Don't think you can bracket a serious political party with the dangerous nonsense spouted by the EDL.
    Dangerous nonsense such as endorsing UKIP? I agree.

    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Oh and for those who think UKIP are different from the BNP? Here's Farage with well known white supremacist Ron Paul.
    http://www.ukipmeps.org/news_723_Nig...onference.html
    "Please rate some other members". **** Ron Paul.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I was raising it mainly because I am curious/concerned that political factions are seeking to control this site. One classic way to do that is to 'snowjob' the site, blitzing it with basically the same thread multiple times a day, to bore everyone rigid and shut down discussion. As that is what appears to be happening, it's not unreasonable or a troll to seek to raise and discuss it.
    Are you sure you're not making things up to control debate yourself? Because I don't see that many new threads at all, let alone new threads that are the same over and over.
    And the whole point of debating in the first place is to try and control it... To persuade people that your argument is better.
    If you ask me, you know your ideas aren't very good when you start criticising how the other side portray their ideas.
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    The whole discussion confuses me a little.

    If you oppose immigration you are a right wing thug according to some people but I thought the left were supposed to oppose anything that has a negative impact on the lives of ordinary working folk?
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    (Original post by The Mad Dog)
    Obviously this claim is utter nonsense but it's no more utter nonsense than Fullofsurprises original point.
    I am honoured by your comparison.
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    (Original post by Scumbaggio)
    The whole discussion confuses me a little.

    If you oppose immigration you are a right wing thug according to some people but I thought the left were supposed to oppose anything that has a negative impact on the lives of ordinary working folk?
    Exactly!

    The great irony is that mass immigration (from the EU) favours the wealthiest through lower wages!
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I'm really trying to address the creation of a daily tidal wave of basically identical new threads by the same half-dozen posters, not to mention encouraging these idiots by responding to them in those threads.
    I usually agree uncannily with everything you say, but I can't agree with your stance here, you can't start telling people what they can and can't post. It's all elementary anyway because it's not on a public student website like TSR where the debates that matter happen. It's like going to the Daily Mail comments section and submitting sensible comments, nothing will stick, there's just no point. If you go to Oxford I'm sure you have all manner of illustrious debating societies and stuff there, why don't you join them?
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    Furthermore landmark acts like the 1832 Representation of the People's Act which widened the Franchise to the common man were introduced by a combination of Whigs and Tories, both of whom would baulk at the idea of being compared with the modern liberal-left.
    The '32 Act really wasn't all that, you know; it was fairly well a stop-gap measure designed to shut the reformist rioters up a bit. You have to skip forward to Gladstone and Disraeli before any real progress was made, and by then there was an embryonic republican movement, especially when you consider Joseph Chamberlain's prominence around the time of the Reform Act of 1884.
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    Here is an interesting article from the Independent I found that reaffirms UKIP spouting BS and they are narrow minded and only see one side of the argument theirs
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    Here is an interesting article from the Independent I found
    Do you know who GUY VERHOFSTADT is?
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    Do you know who GUY VERHOFSTADT is?
    Prime Minister of Belgium for 3 terms, was tipped to become Commission President back in 2004 UK blocked due to his opposition to Iraq, still is tipped for Commission President and elected to the European Parliament back in 2009 and is currently the Leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe in the European Parliament.

    This is from the top of my head, did not need to google him
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    Here is an interesting article from the Independent I found that reaffirms UKIP spouting BS and they are narrow minded and only see one side of the argument theirs
    It all depends on which figures you quote

    There is a difference between migrants and immigrants
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    (Original post by a729)
    It all depends on which figures you quote

    There is a difference between migrants and immigrants
    Freedom of Movement works both ways which you ignore
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    In terms of free speech you're deeply confused. In my experience liberals tend to believe that free speech poses a threat to minorities because empiricism can be used to undermine marginal cultures, so they've developed two categories of speech: 'free' speech -which includes everything they agree with - and 'hate' speech -i.e opinions and ideas they disagree with. If you label an entire sub-set of ideas 'hate' and then attempt to ban then on the grounds of social cohesion you're not in favour of free speech, in fact you're probably a bigot.
    If they're trying to stop legitimate discussion then they're not liberal in any true sense of the word, they're left-wing authoritarian.

    That said, things like sitting on a bus swearing at people and telling them to "go back to their own country" isn't legitimate discussion, it's harassment.

    Also your knowledge of history is woeful. The Labour Party weren't created until 1900 so the left as we know it couldn't have been responsible for the abolition of slavery which was outlawed some 100 years earlier in 1807 when the Tories dominated parliament. Furthermore landmark acts like the 1832 Representation of the People's Act which widened the Franchise to the common man were introduced by a combination of Whigs and Tories, both of whom would baulk at the idea of being compared with the modern liberal-left. New Labour etc may identify with victims and purport to represent them but I don't think an analysis of the facts supports your claims, even if you want to talk about H&S in the coal mining industry you cannot overlook Thatcher who did much more for miners' safety by closing down the mines than the Unions ever did. But lets not let the facts get in the way, right?
    Why do you assume I am only addressing left and right in the context of the UK? I specfically said "in America" on the black slavery point. The reason I mentioned it should be obvious enough given the origins of left-wing and right-wing. The right were those that fought to preserve the former social order and protect the interests of the aristocracy, they claimed that society's structure was natural, organic and needed to stay the way it was. The left rejected this and fought for equality and a radical overhaul of society's established hierarchies. Which of those two branches of thought is equal treatment for ethnic minorities and women going to fall under? The left of course.

    Because there is now so much consensus that different groups in society should receive even treatment, the left vs right debate has been reframed around the question of economic distribution.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    With today's news that the EDL are telling people to vote Ukip, it's hardly just some wild label I'm attaching to your beloved party out of thin air.
    I don't get this left wing smear by association. If you have something to say about his party, then say it, why do you have to say it through proxy via the EDL. If your only argument is that the EDL like UKIP its a very weak argument.


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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I usually agree uncannily with everything you say, but I can't agree with your stance here, you can't start telling people what they can and can't post. It's all elementary anyway because it's not on a public student website like TSR where the debates that matter happen. It's like going to the Daily Mail comments section and submitting sensible comments, nothing will stick, there's just no point. If you go to Oxford I'm sure you have all manner of illustrious debating societies and stuff there, why don't you join them?
    You aren't agreeing with something I didn't say. I didn't try to tell people what they can and can't post. I was making the point that the daily addition of multiple threads bashing immigrants and people on benefits with Daily Mail sources don't represent the bulk of opinion and are out of touch with the reality of the government onslaught against the working poor and disabled and the failure to do anything serious about massive tax avoidance. I was suggesting that we think about how to counter such nonsense.
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    (Original post by Toothfairy123)
    I don't get this left wing smear by association. If you have something to say about his party, then say it, why do you have to say it through proxy via the EDL. If your only argument is that the EDL like UKIP its a very weak argument.

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    Given that the EDL have today acclaimed Ukip and urged their supporters to vote for it, there's nothing odd about associating the two. It's always been clear that Ukip is a xenophobic party.
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    (Original post by Tpx)
    And she does PPE at Oxford apparently. It's worrying.

    (I bet she works for The Guardian)
    Most of these Oxford and Cambridge types are clueless morons, and incredibly naive, with no grip on reality - that's exactly how the 60s revolutionary designed system wants them.

    They think for example that Machiavelli's ideas only apply to the 16th century but not to today because history has somehow miraculously ended and everything that is presented today has a presentation which exactly resembles what everything is. The BBC and their lecturers and books etc. should be taken at face value etc. and any conflicts of information are ALWAYS a problem with the other side.

    And you must always support the 60s revolutionary viewpoint because its good for your pass rate or career. But never mind reality. It was never a friend of theirs.

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Given that the EDL have today acclaimed Ukip and urged their supporters to vote for it, there's nothing odd about associating the two. It's always been clear that Ukip is a xenophobic party.
    Even though UKIP's leader, Nigel Farage, is married to a German.

    What a weird definition of the term 'xenophobe' you must have.
 
 
 
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