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    We are discussing US and Russia.

    The situation in the Ukraine is much more complex because of the hang over from 20th century ( and before) Russian history especially the WW2 situation where some of the population were pro German and some pro Russian/ Soviet. The current problems are in some ways still playing out this conflict.

    The Germans invaded Russia 22nd June 1941. Part of their Ost plan.
    The Generalplan Ost (Master Plan East, GPO) was a secret Nazi German plan for the colonization of Central and Eastern Europe.Implementation would have necessitated genocide and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale to be undertaken in territories occupied by Germany during World War II.

    The plan entailed the enslavement, expulsion, and/or extermination of most Slavic peoples in Europe, who the Nazis viewed as subhumans and non-Aryan, 'unter menschen', The programme operational guidelines, prepared in the years 1939–1942, were based on the policy of Lebensraum designed by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi movement, as well as being a fulfillment of the Drang nach Osten (English: Drive towards the East) ideology of German expansion to the east. As such, it was intended to be a part of the New Order in Europe.

    I don't think the Russians had similar beliefs about the Germans as a people being sub human. Quite the opposite - their belief system was the internationalism of the proletariat and their interests.
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    (Original post by pickup)
    History is littered with examples of 'superior' invading powers who have lost.
    And also those who built empires and kept them up for centuries, sometimes millennia.

    The US has the disadvantage of any power that is convinced of its own overwhelming superiority politically and militarily - it believes its own propaganda, fails to take into account the views of any one else, fails to assess the motivations of others, underestimates what motivates people in a long fight.
    You're totally underestimating the US military. Their politics might work that way, but the military has developed pretty successful strategies and doctrines (check out David Petraeus).

    If the US invade Russia they will not win.
    They probably would. Everything you wrote is based on a scenario where the US would not only want to beat Russia at war, but also occupy it - why the heck would they do that? They are not trying to build an empire or expand their territory. Granted, the situation is highly hypothetical anyway, but to remove Russia as a rival for decades it would be enough to go in, beat them conventionally, take out their key industries and infrastructure, then leave without bothering about insurgencies and the challenge of anti-guerrilla warfare.
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    (Original post by ShotsFired-9941)
    I've heard Russian media saying the government is all set to increase it's military spending by 30% which will be about USD60 billion in 2015/16

    This 60bn$ will literally give their military a range of state of the art fire power
    That's primarily going on some good subs but not much else of note.
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    (Original post by pickup)
    We are discussing US and Russia.

    The situation in the Ukraine is much more complex because of the hang over from 20th century ( and before) Russian history especially the WW2 situation where some of the population were pro German and some pro Russian/ Soviet. The current problems are in some ways still playing out this conflict.

    The Germans invaded Russia 22nd June 1941. Part of their Ost plan.
    The Generalplan Ost (Master Plan East, GPO) was a secret Nazi German plan for the colonization of Central and Eastern Europe.Implementation would have necessitated genocide and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale to be undertaken in territories occupied by Germany during World War II.

    The plan entailed the enslavement, expulsion, and/or extermination of most Slavic peoples in Europe, who the Nazis viewed as subhumans and non-Aryan, 'unter menschen', The programme operational guidelines, prepared in the years 1939–1942, were based on the policy of Lebensraum designed by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi movement, as well as being a fulfillment of the Drang nach Osten (English: Drive towards the East) ideology of German expansion to the east. As such, it was intended to be a part of the New Order in Europe.

    I don't think the Russians had similar beliefs about the Germans as a people being sub human. Quite the opposite - their belief system was the internationalism of the proletariat and their interests.
    I am not any "we" with you. People on here are discussing what happens if Russians decide to attack other counties, specifically, the US, and you pretend that it's the other way round. You asked for Alaska to be give to Russia, didn't you? There were several appeals and petitions. So, what happens if Russia comes to annex Alaska to help Russians, who suffer there? Who will win?
    Why do you call Ukraine - the Ukraine, vatnik? That "the" yet not happened and maybe never will. Also, isn't it terrorist activity to say that Ukraine doesn't exist anymore, at least in Europe? Or are you in Skolkovo?
    Russians didn't treat others as sub-humans? What a joke. Go educate yourself on Holodomor, for starters. Or maybe you think that we know nothing about it? Or, your post shows, too, how Russians treat all others as sub-humans. They have a racial slur for any other nationality but their own. You, Russians, never learned local languages because they were considered dog languages" , and Russian was a superior language. If you graduated from a school in any local languages, you were "stupid", all Russians students were always seated at the front, local students - at the end of the class. Russians in Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Baltic countries refuse to learn local languages, because it's "beneath" them.
    Russians Nazi marched on Moscow with Hitler, all 800 000 of them, killing Jews and Ukrainians as they advanced. You, Russians, are now using Vlasov Nazi army flag as your national flag, which says a lot.
    And yes, Russia and Hitler were close allies, go check on photos where your comrade Stalin shakes hands with Herr Ribbentrop. They divided western Ukraine and Poland among them, and even conducted joined military operations. Then, your comrade Stalin decided to grab some more of Polish territory, so Hitler had to start a war in the east, when, in fact, he wanted a war with Britain. So, we are talking about two huge Nazi countries, the same in essence, trying to outsmart each other. There were no difference in what you did in Ukraine and what Germans did in Ukraine. None whatsoever.
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    USA would smash on it; Russia is a bit of a Mickey Mouse state/military, can't even handle a tiny conflict in their own back yard :rolleyes:

    Spoiler:
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    Naturally there would be no winners if it came to nuclear conflict, however :beard:
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    I could be slightly off the mark here but... Didnt Rocky IV settle this?... Rocky, Drago anyone?... no?
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    (Original post by Sir Fox)
    And also those who built empires and kept them up for centuries, sometimes millennia.



    You're totally underestimating the US military. Their politics might work that way, but the military has developed pretty successful strategies and doctrines (check out David Petraeus).



    They probably would. Everything you wrote is based on a scenario where the US would not only want to beat Russia at war, but also occupy it - why the heck would they do that? They are not trying to build an empire or expand their territory. Granted, the situation is highly hypothetical anyway, but to remove Russia as a rival for decades it would be enough to go in, beat them conventionally, take out their key industries and infrastructure, then leave without bothering about insurgencies and the challenge of anti-guerrilla warfare.
    This entire thread is stupid, these hypotheticals do not and will never exist. Russia has Nukes. The USA has nukes. Neither will win. No one will survive a nuclear war. End of story.
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    USA would smash on it; Russia is a bit of a Mickey Mouse state/military, can't even handle a tiny conflict in their own back yard :rolleyes:

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Naturally there would be no winners if it came to nuclear conflict, however :beard:
    Technically they're not fighting it. Russia's military isn't actually involved. For the same reason why America had trouble in their own back yard (latin america) because their military isn't the one fighting their conflicts, the rebels are.
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    (Original post by Lionheart96)
    Technically they're not fighting it. Russia's military isn't actually involved. For the same reason why America had trouble in their own back yard (latin america) because their military isn't the one fighting their conflicts, the rebels are.
    Someone educate this fool :mrt:
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Someone educate this fool :facepalm2:
    Are you stupid or something?
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    (Original post by Lionheart96)
    Are you stupid or something?
    9 thousand Russian troops on Russian tanks is now called "not involved"?
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    (Original post by Lionheart96)
    This entire thread is stupid, these hypotheticals do not and will never exist. Russia has Nukes. The USA has nukes. Neither will win. No one will survive a nuclear war. End of story.
    You assume that nuclear weapons would be used. They may well not be, because neither wants to trigger a global nuclear war.
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    (Original post by namename)
    9 thousand Russian troops on Russian tanks is now called "not involved"?
    If Russias military was truly involved we would know.
    Ukraine communications system would go offline in minutes, Russian SOLDIERS and TANKS would be backed up by russian AIR SUPPORT and artillery, the entire Ukrainian army would be destroyed in 48 hours and a Kiev would no be in the hands of Russia. Sending a few old tanks (many of which were probably taken from the UA) and volunteers does not count as "not being able to win a war in their own back yard". Even in their sorry state in 2008 Russia managed to decimate a US funded military. and when Russia invaded Crimea we knew about it.
    Foo.mp3 just doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
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    (Original post by james22)
    You assume that nuclear weapons would be used. They may well not be, because neither wants to trigger a global nuclear war.
    Then neither would go into a conventional war. Russia knows it can't defeat the USA in a conventional war, their military doctrine clearly states that when overwhelmed by superior conventional forces, Russia reserves the right to use nuclear weapons. The USA knows this.
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    (Original post by Lionheart96)
    This entire thread is stupid, these hypotheticals do not and will never exist. Russia has Nukes. The USA has nukes. Neither will win. No one will survive a nuclear war. End of story.
    I agree that no one wins a nuclear war, I just draw a different conclusion - nuclearly armed states have fought each other in the past, albeit on a small scale (Kargil War). I believe that Russia and the US could veeery hypothetically fight each other in a conventional war with one side winning, without either side resorting to use nuclear weapons.
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    (Original post by Lionheart96)
    Then neither would go into a conventional war. Russia knows it can't defeat the USA in a conventional war, their military doctrine clearly states that when overwhelmed by superior conventional forces, Russia reserves the right to use nuclear weapons. The USA knows this.
    Doesn't mean that they will.
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    (Original post by Sir Fox)
    I agree that no one wins a nuclear war, I just draw a different conclusion - nuclearly armed states have fought each other in the past, albeit on a small scale (Kargil War). I believe that Russia and the US could veeery hypothetically fight each other in a conventional war with one side winning, without either side resorting to use nuclear weapons.
    If it was a limited skirmish or conflict somewhere on neutral ground (not in Russia or the US) then maybe, although who knows if the stakes are high tactical nukes may be used (which can hypothetically be shot out of tanks).
    But never in a full blown war when it is a matter of life and death for the state.
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    (Original post by Lionheart96)
    If Russias military was truly involved we would know.
    Ukraine communications system would go offline in minutes, Russian SOLDIERS and TANKS would be backed up by russian AIR SUPPORT and artillery, the entire Ukrainian army would be destroyed in 48 hours and a Kiev would no be in the hands of Russia. Sending a few old tanks (many of which were probably taken from the UA) and volunteers does not count as "not being able to win a war in their own back yard". Even in their sorry state in 2008 Russia managed to decimate a US funded military. and when Russia invaded Crimea we knew about it.
    Foo.mp3 just doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
    Who are "we", you, the voices in your head and your Kremlin handler? You for an outdated memo, tovarich. Even Russian TV now shows Russian military, reporting from the front line. And Ukraine doesn't have the tanks Russia has, so they are Russian tanks. God, lying is a national sport for vatniks.
    You are so optimistic about your drunken and corrupt army. They are all on drugs, whatever the Ukrainian army takes an outpost, it's full of used syringes, unless you are all diabetics.
    More likely, Russians druggies and alkies would march a little deeper into the territory, where they will be destroyed by Ukrainian army, with local citizens finishing off the rest of these sad species of humanity. And "you" would not even know it, because, in your new bought because rubble is no more TV shows you only what you want to be shown. You'd probably got reports about a great victory and jump from joy, while paying 1 million rubbles for a loaf of bread.
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    (Original post by james22)
    Doesn't mean that they will.
    what? lol. do you not understand basic logic?
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    (Original post by Lionheart96)
    what? lol. do you not understand basic logic?
    Yes I do. Reserving the right to do something does not mean that they will do it.
 
 
 
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