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What percentage of blame, if at all any, rests with the victim during rape? Watch

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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Wow. I'd read all the stuff about "Not all men" before, but I never expected such a clear demonstration. Thanks guys.

    It is of course true that not all men are rapists. However, that is not the point and it is not helpful. It is putting yourself at the centre of an argument that is not about you, but about the millions of women who are victims of rape. You have the privilege of not having to worry about rape, because you are men. Even though you are not, so far as I am aware, rapists, that still means you're in a position where you don't need to be in the middle. Women know not all men are rapists. Unfortunately, we also know that there is no way to tell whether you, as an individual, are or not - women are raped by strangers, they are raped by friends, they are raped by family members. We are raped by people we hate, people we don't know, and people we would have trusted with our lives.

    The other aspect to this is that whilst not all men are rapists, nearly all rapists are men. And rape is not an isolated occurrence - it is the culmination of a culture in which men feel entitled to be at the centre of every discussion, where they hold power over women and are in a privileged position simply because of their gender. That's why we need to have a discussion about masculinity and rape. Only be addressing the issues that all men either perpetrate or resist against can we address why some men take this as far as committing rape and taking complete power over a woman. To do that, we need to acknowledge that rape culture does exist, that is effects each and every one of us, and that just because you yourself are not a rapist does not mean you are exempt from any inclusion in the issue or that you can interrupt a discussion about how to combat it and demand it is centred around yourself.
    Here's an interesting read for you.

    (Original post by http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study _reveals_that_men_are_sexually_a ssaulted.html - April 29th 2014)

    Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men. The number seemed so high that it prompted researcher Lara Stemple to call the Bureau of Justice Statistics to see if it maybe it had made a mistake, or changed its terminology. After all, in years past men had accounted for somewhere between 5 and 14 percent of rape and sexual violence victims. But no, it wasn’t a mistake, officials told her...
    Now, I'm not trying to detract from the fact that many women have been and will be raped but calling it an entirely male problem is being dishonest about the issue at hand.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    What kind of mealy-mouthed, hypocritical, self-serving justification is that? Why should men take any precautions? You said that women should not have to take any precautions because that implies victim-blaming, but now you're saying the fact men don't take precautions somehow confers some kind of "privilege"?

    You said that "men don't have to worry about being raped", which is effectively saying men do not get raped. That demonstrates your utter contempt for the suffering and trauma of male rape victims, and that your adherence to your ideological doctrines is about dominating men and the exercise of power, not a true effort to find equality between the sexes. You seem to be wilfully deaf to the cries of traumatised male rape victims. To you, they deserved it because they are men?



    "Something making them particularly vulnerable"; interesting choice of words. It's almost like you're saying that by their own actions they might make themselves vulnerable, in other words, victim-blaming. But please do tell; what might make them particularly vulnerable?
    I'm starting to wonder if your wild accusations have any relationship at all with what I've actually said, but anyway. Women do take precautions because of the fact they are often victims of rape, and they shouldn't have to do so. Men don't have to take those same precautions because they are very rarely the victims of rape, and this is as it should be. However, not needing to take such precautions to avoid being raped, or indeed to avoid being blamed for it if they are raped, means men are in a privileged position compared to women.

    For a start, no, I didn't. Men do get raped, and in fact they often suffer more so when they do because of the very different social stigmas around it and the comparative lack of support networks. However, it is a rare enough occurrence that they do not need to worry about it - similarly to how, whilst it is possible I will be struck by lightening tomorrow, I'm not going to avoid going out to a party in bad weather because of the possibility. That doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for people who are struck by lightening, or that I believe they shouldn't get treatment, just that the population at last don't particularly need to worry about it. However, there is the additional element here that whilst men can as you so insistently point out be the victims, they are still the vast majority of time also the perpetrators. Therefore dealing with the issue helps male victims as well as female ones.

    No, that's the exact opposite of what I was saying, considering I made them the passive object in that statement. However, men who are visibly transgender would be one group more likely to be raped who may therefore feel the need to take some of the precautions women do.
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    (Original post by Darkphilosopher)
    This implies that men aren't taught not to rape, which would be completely incorrect.

    Rather, those that rape are doing so with full knowledge that it is something that they shouldn't be doing.

    The logical conclusion would be to try and protect those whom could potentially become the victim of such a horrific act.
    It wouldn't be completely incorrect. There are many people who commit rape without even realising it - not those who rape strangers in the street, which are only a small minority of cases, but those who commit 'date rape' or rape an established partner often honestly believe they are totally innocent of the crime. There is a distinct lack of education and understanding on it, and that's before you even bring in rape culture and the effects of certain pop artists telling women they "know they want it" and the like.
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    (Original post by Darkphilosopher)
    Here's an interesting read for you.



    Now, I'm not trying to detract from the fact that many women have been and will be raped but calling it an entirely male problem is being dishonest about the issue at hand.
    Their website appears to be down, I'm getting a 404 even when I disregard your link and search for it through Google so I'll respond once I'm able to read it
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Their website appears to be down, I'm getting a 404 even when I disregard your link and search for it through Google so I'll respond once I'm able to read it
    For some reason a space is being added into the url, there shouldn't be one after study _study _
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    It wouldn't be completely incorrect. There are many people who commit rape without even realising it - not those who rape strangers in the street, which are only a small minority of cases, but those who commit 'date rape' or rape an established partner often honestly believe they are totally innocent of the crime. There is a distinct lack of education and understanding on it, and that's before you even bring in rape culture and the effects of certain pop artists telling women they "know they want it" and the like.
    True, the legal ins and outs of it aren't taught however the premise is still the same, "If somebody doesn't want sexual contact, then it isn't to happen, irreguardless whom it is".

    I've only ever seen people argue that partial liability lies with the victim in the case of as you say, rape of strangers in the street and in cases of people under the influence of drugs/alcohol etc.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Women do take precautions because of the fact they are often victims of rape
    Wait, previously you said not just that women shouldn't have to take precautions, but precautions make absolutely no difference because women aren't to blame and so nothing they can do affects the likelihood of rape.

    Men don't have to take those same precautions
    What do you mean men don't have to? Men get raped, therefore it makes sense to take certain precautions (like, for example, not accepting unknown drinks in a gay club... and don't throw the homophobia accusation at me, I am gay)

    because they are very rarely the victims of rape
    Rarely? There are 72,000 male victims of rape each year in the UK. That is hardly rare.

    However, not needing to take such precautions to avoid being raped, or indeed to avoid being blamed for it if they are raped, means men are in a privileged position compared to women.
    Not only are you wrong about not needing to take precautions, but even if you were right this is a rather dubious "privilege"

    However, it is a rare enough occurrence that they do not need to worry about it -
    Yeah, 72,000 male-male rapes a year, who cares? Men don't need to worry about it, no big deal eh?

    No, that's the exact opposite of what I was saying, considering I made them the passive object in that statement. However, men who are visibly transgender would be one group more likely to be raped
    So you're saying something the victim did increased their likelihood of being raped? That sounds lke victim-blaming to me
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    (Original post by Darkphilosopher)
    Now, I'm not trying to detract from the fact that many women have been and will be raped but calling it an entirely male problem is being dishonest about the issue at hand.
    There are interesting articles that report on the fact that international rape organisations and the UN have downplayed and denied male rape, that womens rape charities have tried to discredit male rape statistics on the basis that there is a finite amount of money in the sector, and any acceptance of the existence of male rape victims will take away from female rape victims

    That is the most extraordinary, callous, disregard of rape victims (incidentally male in this case) I have heard from organisations who claim to be helping rape victims
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Wait, previously you said not just that women shouldn't have to take precautions, but precautions make absolutely no difference because women aren't to blame and so nothing they can do affects the likelihood of rape.



    What do you mean men don't have to? Men get raped, therefore it makes sense to take certain precautions (like, for example, not accepting unknown drinks in a gay club... and don't throw the homophobia accusation at me, I am gay)



    Rarely? There are 72,000 male victims of rape each year in the UK. That is hardly rare.



    Not only are you wrong about not needing to take precautions, but even if you were right this is a rather dubious "privilege"



    Yeah, 72,000 male-male rapes a year, who cares? Men don't need to worry about it, no big deal eh?



    So you're saying something the victim did increased their likelihood of being raped? That sounds lke victim-blaming to me
    Just done some research as you don't include your source. You've managed to confuse "rape" with "sexual assault", which is not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination. The amount of actual rapes is much lower - an estimated 9,000 here, or 0.014% of men in the UK each year. As I said, a miniscule chance unless you are at particular risk - I would accept being gay is one such factor that makes being victim of rape more likely.

    That would only be true if being transgender was something you did, which as I hope you realise it isn't - it's no more a choice than it is to be gay.
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    (Original post by Darkphilosopher)
    True, the legal ins and outs of it aren't taught however the premise is still the same, "If somebody doesn't want sexual contact, then it isn't to happen, irreguardless whom it is".

    I've only ever seen people argue that partial liability lies with the victim in the case of as you say, rape of strangers in the street and in cases of people under the influence of drugs/alcohol etc.
    Problem is that you can't just dismiss that as the "legal ins and outs of it". Those rapes are NOT some legal technicality, they are RAPES and many of the people committing them do not even realise this!

    And unfortunately, that is a message that clearly has not been taught well enough, as scores of men don't seem to quite understand it. 46% of young men in the UK don't believe it is rape if the victim changes their mind during sex. More than half think it's not rape even if a woman is too drunk to consent. Meanwhile, it would be fair to note that even 60% of women believe it's not rape if a woman doesn't say no! This shows we have a REAL problem with rape culture in the UK, with men believing rape is acceptable and women believing it is somehow their fault if they fail to resist it, and most not reporting it to the police for various reasons.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Problem is that you can't just dismiss that as the "legal ins and outs of it". Those rapes are NOT some legal technicality, they are RAPES and many of the people committing them do not even realise this!
    I'm not dismissing anything. We're taught that "If somebody doesn't want sexual contact, then it isn't to happen, irreguardless whom it is". That is literally all there is to say about it.

    It's akin to a teacher teaching a student that 2+3 = 5.
    The student can't then say, "well.. as she is my wife, 2+3 is no longer 5" or something equally ridiculous and wrong.

    Besides the discussion at hand here is victim blame, not about why people are seemingly incapable of grasping a simple concept.
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    (Original post by Darkphilosopher)
    I'm not dismissing anything. We're taught that "If somebody doesn't want sexual contact, then it isn't to happen, irreguardless whom it is". That is literally all there is to say about it.

    It's akin to a teacher teaching a student that 2+3 = 5.
    The student can't then say, "well.. as she is my wife, 2+3 is no longer 5" or something equally ridiculous and wrong.

    Besides the discussion at hand here is victim blame, not about why people are seemingly incapable of grasping a simple concept.
    If half the population didn't believe that 2+3=5, I think we'd all recognise that was somewhat of a problem and we needed to improve the teaching of maths.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Just done some research as you don't include your source. You've managed to confuse "rape" with "sexual assault", which is not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination. The amount of actual rapes is much lower - an estimated 9,000 here, or 0.014% of men in the UK each year.
    You're right sexual assault is no big deal :rolleyes: Given that sexual assault can include assault by penetration (a man being forcibly penetrated by a woman with a sex toy), it is very interesting that you say sexual assault is no big deal.

    As I said, a miniscule chance
    Women have a "miniscule chance" of being raped, a 0.0022% chance.

    What is clear from all this is that you believe that men don't get raped (based on your original comment), that sexual assault of men is "no big deal" (what stereotypes are you going to throw at us next, that when men are sexually assaulted they actually want it because otherwise they wouldn't get hard?), and that the bizarre claim that "men don't need to take precautions" (and I contest that) is some kind of "privilege".

    This is a thoroughly warped view based on hatred of men, and a sour bitterness against everyone with a Y chromosome. It is deeply distressing that you are so callous to male victims of sex crimes
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    If half the population didn't believe that 2+3=5, I think we'd all recognise that was somewhat of a problem and we needed to improve the teaching of maths.
    In which case, I bring you back to your original claim,

    Men should be taught not to rape, rather than women being taught not to get raped...
    How about, "Men and women should have improved teaching about rape and what is and isn't considered rape."

    That however still leaves us with a point of discussion.
    Many men and women do understand what rape is and that they shouldn't do it but still acknowledge that there are precautions that people can take to potentially avoid being victimised by the bad elements of society (those whom knowingly break the law) in certain circumstances (aka victim blaming).

    It's these very circumstances that are most likely to involve perpetrators who know full well that they are breaking the law (Purposely spiking somebody's drink in order to take them home and rape them for example can't possibly be seen as a misunderstanding in rape laws or what has been taught)
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    (Original post by Ade9000)
    Could you elaborate further on why you believe rape culture exists? I'm actually interested in knowing the rationale behind this.
    I think 'rape culture' is perhaps too provocative a term - maybe macho male dominated / rife with casual misogyny culture is more apt. I'm male, and to be honest it's something i didn't really notice until last year - that's not because it only started happening, but because it's so engrained in our society. What i mean is not a culture of people physically going out and raping women (which does happen), but an attitude towards women which is pervasive. It's asking school girls to stop wearing skirts because it distracts boys, a tennis commentator talking about how a women player must have to train harder because "she's not a looker", toy shops marketing science and technology at boys and pink fluffy kitchen orientated things at girls, the blatant sexualisation of women's bodies from a young age, boys (and girls) at school making rape jokes, and then the MET deleting details of sex (and racial) discrimination against female detectives etc etc i could go on. These are all parts of a much more fundamental and systemic problem (how we see and treat women). And it's the cumulation of these that leads to the culture we're currently buried in. Sadly one of the effects of this is not only the rape of women, but the trivialisation of the act.

    (Original post by Maharaniii)
    Women also need to dress with more dignity
    I have to disagree with this, because in a way it gets to a fundamental point of the issue. It doesn't matter what anyone is wearing.

    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    So I assume a working-class man has more power in society than an upper-class woman then. If you are going to say I'm wrong, don't just quote dogma at me, advance an alternative hypothesis, say for the reasons for the emergence of societies which treat women as property. Because I'm afraid at the moment mine is winning.

    If not, please do keep to the creative arts, nothing is more of a creative art than the feminist interpretation of history...
    I'm not here to educate you, partly because i don't have the time and partly because you come across as boorish with your opinion pretty much set in stone already.

    This is not to do with class. I'm not talking about power in the sense of employment but in terms of their position within our society. So yes, the working class man has more power than an upper class women (whatever working class and upper class mean) because he's a man. It's a gender issue, not where they work... i would have thought that was obvious. I'm not saying a successful women isn't powerful, of course she is. But they'll still talk about how she looks and where her dress is from. I'm talking about the fundamental sense of entitlement a large part (not all) of the male population feel they have over women, their bodies, their opinions, and their decision making. If you don't see this as something that is rampant in our society then it's worse than i thought.
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    (Original post by lppm)
    I think 'rape culture' is perhaps too provocative a term - maybe macho male dominated / rife with casual misogyny culture is more apt. I'm male, and to be honest it's something i didn't really notice until last year - that's not because it only started happening, but because it's so engrained in our society. What i mean is not a culture of people physically going out and raping women (which does happen), but an attitude towards women which is pervasive. It's asking school girls to stop wearing skirts because it distracts boys, a tennis commentator talking about how a women player must have to train harder because "she's not a looker", toy shops marketing science and technology at boys and pink fluffy kitchen orientated things at girls, the blatant sexualisation of women's bodies from a young age, boys (and girls) at school making rape jokes, and then the MET deleting details of sex (and racial) discrimination against female detectives etc etc i could go on. These are all parts of a much more fundamental and systemic problem (how we see and treat women). And it's the cumulation of these that leads to the culture we're currently buried in. Sadly one of the effects of this is not only the rape of women, but the trivialisation of the act.
    I won't deny that there are certain circles and industries which induce misogyny, I don't think it's our society (when I say society, I talk about the population as a whole). Also, while rape jokes are bad in taste, I don't see how they trivialize rape. Unless you want insist that jokes about murder, violence and racism trivialize the issues.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    You're right sexual assault is no big deal :rolleyes: Given that sexual assault can include assault by penetration (a man being forcibly penetrated by a woman with a sex toy), it is very interesting that you say sexual assault is no big deal.



    Women have a "miniscule chance" of being raped, a 0.0022% chance.

    What is clear from all this is that you believe that men don't get raped (based on your original comment), that sexual assault of men is "no big deal" (what stereotypes are you going to throw at us next, that when men are sexually assaulted they actually want it because otherwise they wouldn't get hard?), and that the bizarre claim that "men don't need to take precautions" (and I contest that) is some kind of "privilege".

    This is a thoroughly warped view based on hatred of men, and a sour bitterness against everyone with a Y chromosome. It is deeply distressing that you are so callous to male victims of sex crimes
    You appear to have a problem with basic English. As well as failing to recognise sexual assault and rape are not the same thing, you now can't tell the difference between that and sexual assault not being regarded as a big deal. Undoubtedly it is, but its a separate offence for a reason - and there's nothing to suggest a large number of those cases were "assault by penetration" which would be at the very top end of the offence.

    Where the hell did you get 0.0022% from?

    Being able to live without the fear of rape and with a far lower likelihood of it actually happening means you are in a privileged position compared to women. What makes that so hard to understand?

    Interesting. Just so happens I have a Y chromosome, I wasn't aware I had such a severe case of self-loathing!
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    The rapist is ultimately to blame, but I do acknowledge that the victim sometimes does make poor choices that lead to her/his rape, or perhaps even misleads their rapist. And consider this: would you be inclined to at least partially blame a person who was burgled after leaving their front door wide open, or perhaps had their wallet stolen after leaving it on a park bench? You have to admit, in some situations, one does lose some sympathy. For instance, if an intoxicated woman deliberately entices an intoxicated man, initiates/provokes, then changes her mind and tells him "no" in a muffled voice, but he still continues to have sex with her. It's rape, but I won't be as sympathetic here, I do admit.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Undoubtedly it is, but its a separate offence for a reason
    The reason is historical definition. Are you seriously claiming that a woman forcibly penetrating a man with a dildo is less bad than rape?

    Where the hell did you get 0.0022% from?
    Sorry, I should have written 0.2% (i.e. 1 in 500... hardly common)

    Being able to live without the fear of rape and with a far lower likelihood of it actually happening means you are in a privileged position compared to women. What makes that so hard to understand?
    Do you even know the meaning of the word privilege?

    Interesting. Just so happens I have a Y chromosome, I wasn't aware I had such a severe case of self-loathing!
    Are you confused about what a Y-chromosome is, or are you confused about your gender?

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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Do you believe prevention measures are needed on the part of the victim to do as much as possible to stop a crime from occurring?
    To an extent. I would for most crimes suggest that reasonable preventative measures be taken, where necessary, on the part of the individual. To go back to your previous comparison, it is not wise for a billionaire to taunt poorer members of society by openly flaunting his wealth in front of them. But rape/sexual assault is the violation of a woman's personal area without her consent. One could suggest walking/travelling with friends; avoiding dark, open spaces and sticking to lit, built up areas where possible; not drinking alcohol (or less); and maybe wearing more modest clothes...but I wouldn't go so far as to attach blame to a woman who didn't do these things and was subsequently raped.

    Other responsibilities should be on the government and on society. For instance, where there is a dark alleyway at night, or no CCTV, there has to be questions on part of society as to why there is not, and to hold the government accountable

    (Original post by Ade9000)
    Could you elaborate further on why you believe rape culture exists? I'm actually interested in knowing the rationale behind this.
    I saw an article in the Guardian which suggest that 'lad culture' was intrinsically linked with 'rape culture'. So, read' UniLAD, LADBible, Page3' etc...which at the core, use the objectification of women to gain likes, shares or sell copies. The argument follows that the more women become seen as objects, serious crimes like sexual assault and rape etc. become trivialised.

    But I would disagree with that premise. It's a slippery slope. I need not mention that the overwhelming majority of their readership wouldn't then rape a woman.
 
 
 
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