Rights of the father. Watch

DorianGrayism
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(Original post by Wade-)
I wonder if you realise how stupid you're making yourself look. You are literally just making up what you think I've said


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Yeh. I look stupid, when you write "In very few cases does a vagina actually tear" when the rate is 85%
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Wade-
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#222
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(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Yeh. I look stupid, when you write "In very few cases does a vagina actually tear" when the rate is 85%
You look stupid because you're literally making things up and claiming I've said them, among other things. In your stats you said that 75% require suturing, your source says 60-70 just to let you know


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DorianGrayism
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(Original post by Wade-)
You look stupid because you're literally making things up and claiming I've said them, among other things. In your stats you said that 75% require suturing, your source says 60-70 just to let you know


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Actually, I wrote 70.

Just to let you know.
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Wade-
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(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Actually, I wrote 70.

Just to let you know.
Still quite misleading though isn't it


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lucaf
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I think I like the idea people have talked about of men having a "paper abortion" where they forfeit all rights to the child in in exchange for not having to pay child support. This would need some sort of time limit like an actual abortion to be fair on women (so the man can't say he will support her and then change his mind when it is too late for her to abort) but also men would need to be protected so women couldn't just hide the pregnancy to get around it.

Men should have absolutely no right to force women to either have an abortion or carry a baby to term against their will.
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limetang
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(Original post by lucaf)
I think I like the idea people have talked about of men having a "paper abortion" where they forfeit all rights to the child in in exchange for not having to pay child support. This would need some sort of time limit like an actual abortion to be fair on women (so the man can't say he will support her and then change his mind when it is too late for her to abort) but also men would need to be protected so women couldn't just hide the pregnancy to get around it.

Men should have absolutely no right to force women to either have an abortion or carry a baby to term against their will.
Oh I completely agree, and I don't think anybody is suggesting that a man should be able to forfeit parental responsibilities at any point he likes there should of course be a time limit. I personally think the easiest situation would be a system where you assume sex is recreational unless otherwise stated (that is there is no intention to procreate), and that a pregnant woman has x many weeks to tell the man and he has y many weeks to make up his mind and if he isn't told in the first x weeks but finds out later he has z many weeks to make up his mind.

The only issue I could see with this is a scope for abuse of the system where a man could run off never to be seen again for several years and then suddenly decide he wants to be a part of a childs life. I think the only fair thing to do then would be to say yes you can but that you are obliged to provide a back pay of support that you would otherwise have paid anyway if you'd raised the child since birth. Not 100% fair but it's the best compromise I can think off of the top of my head.
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DorianGrayism
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(Original post by Wade-)
Still quite misleading though isn't it


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Pick 60 or 70 etc or in your case......make something up. The point doesn't really change.
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lucaf
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(Original post by limetang)
Oh I completely agree, and I don't think anybody is suggesting that a man should be able to forfeit parental responsibilities at any point he likes there should of course be a time limit. I personally think the easiest situation would be a system where you assume sex is recreational unless otherwise stated (that is there is no intention to procreate), and that a pregnant woman has x many weeks to tell the man and he has y many weeks to make up his mind and if he isn't told in the first x weeks but finds out later he has z many weeks to make up his mind.

The only issue I could see with this is a scope for abuse of the system where a man could run off never to be seen again for several years and then suddenly decide he wants to be a part of a childs life. I think the only fair thing to do then would be to say yes you can but that you are obliged to provide a back pay of support that you would otherwise have paid anyway if you'd raised the child since birth. Not 100% fair but it's the best compromise I can think off of the top of my head.
Sounds reasonable. Obviously there would be a lot of conditions and exceptions and fine tuning, but the general idea is feasible.
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dyslexicvegie
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(Original post by lucaf)
Sounds reasonable. Obviously there would be a lot of conditions and exceptions and fine tuning, but the general idea is feasible.

Agreed though I would feel sorry for the Kids.
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ubi1
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(Original post by garfeeled)
So it seems the thread about the women who was tricked into aborting her pregnancy as devolved into a debate about what rights the father should or shouldn't have when it comes to children.

And by rights I mean should the father have involvement ( legally ) on whether the baby is kept or not
Should the father have a right to walk away without consequence to his actions.
Should the mother have a right to obligate the father to pay child support.
Forgot to mention this first time round but people have brought it up, should the father be obligated to have emotional/practical involvement in the child's life separate of financial support,
Basically potential legal obligations of the father.

I myself am undecided on the issue . My present thinking is over idealistic and could never be used for a real legal system.
Father should have as much rights as the woman, both are the parents end of the day.
Yes the father should have a right to walk away.
No the mother shouldn't have a right to obligate the father.... She can't chose when he should be a father or not..... God damn it.

(Original post by bittr n swt)
Father should and can walk away if they don't want anything to do with the kid.
But the father should be taken responsibility, should have put a condom on.
(Original post by Zargabaath)
Why is it the fathers responsibility to use protection? The woman's the one who at risk of getting pregnant, why shouldn't she take responsibility?
Exactly the mother also has some responsibility, she should definitely take it.

(Original post by garfeeled)
So you saying the father should have legal involvement in the decision to keep or terminate the pregnancy, is that a legal obligation for him to be informed of the decision or go beyond that, an obligation to discuss the decision with him or maybe even further.



In regards to the last one ( which you say depends on circumstance you specifically mention income), why is it fair that a women who has less money ( than a certain amount ) be allowed to obligate a man to pay to raise the child. It is not his fault ( or at least assumably isn't) his fault for her not being above the cut of point.




So he shouldn't have to pay for the child he has produced?
Yes he shouldn't pay for a child he has produces you raised a good point about the man earning more money, he was fortunate that he earns more, I think the women be put to benefits £35-40 a week for child support, anything more than that is excess.

(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Well, don't have sex then.

Who else is going to support the baby then? More Tax payer money?

The reality is that if Father's decide to walk away when they want then the State / Taxpayer will have to foot the bill to support the Kid along with the Mum.

So, quite frankly, I couldn't care if you are stupid enough to have a baby and you have to support it. Your mistake. You pay.
I would much rather put tax payer/benefits for child support, do you have any idea how many men's life's have been ruined due to excess child support?

(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
Whether to keep a child or abort it should be entirely the woman's choice. It's her body so it's her decision.

Fathers shouldn't be forced to have practical and emotional involvement in the child's life because that wouldn't be a positive influence on the child but the should pay for the child whatever. It's not about punishing the father it's about not punishing an innocent child.
Smalltowngirl, dear I beg to differ with you in this, I think both parents decision is crucial for the birth of the child, not just the mothers.

(Original post by garfeeled)
Frozen fund that would be accessible to pay for education and assumably other important thing such as food and clothes and toys and sittersp. So some sort of system where by the mother would have to declare what the money was for like a special credit card.

By should do you mean a legal should such that the mother can have her request for child support backed by the government.
A frozen fund sounds like a good idea, especially where the mother has proof where she spends money. +1 for this.

(Original post by dyslexicvegie)
If it was decided that the farther had a legal right to decide whether a foetus was aborted or not, how would that be enforced?
It cant be two people's decision if they disagree. Would the want of an abortion beat the want of a baby, even if it was the women who wanted the baby?

Have the police arrest the women and have her taken kicking and screaming into the operating theatre?

Im completely pro-choice, but this seems unworkable.
Have Some sort of legal contract agreement to decide abortion or not beforehand obviously...

(Original post by jazjaz)
And what about sperm jacking and women that lie about being on the pill?
In regards to women that are lying and being deceptive, I say take their child of them and father should get complete choice of how much responsibility he wants over the child or whether he wants to walk away.


(Original post by ha27)
I,as a teenage girl who really wants kids when grown up, feel that fathers do not get rights and that is wrong.

I think it is wrong how a woman doesnt need to listen to a word the father has to say she can do what she wants and the father literally has no say in whether she gets an abortion i think it is sad


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Welcome to the real world, where men don't have any rights and get screwed every time.
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jazjaz
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(Original post by ubi1)




Father should have as much rights as the woman, both are the parents end of the day.
Yes the father should have a right to walk away.
No the mother shouldn't have a right to obligate the father.... She can't chose when he should be a father or not..... God damn it.





Exactly the mother also has some responsibility, she should definitely take it.



Yes he shouldn't pay for a child he has produces you raised a good point about the man earning more money, he was fortunate that he earns more, I think the women be put to benefits £35-40 a week for child support, anything more than that is excess.



I would much rather put tax payer/benefits for child support, do you have any idea how many men's life's have been ruined due to excess child support?



Smalltowngirl, dear I beg to differ with you in this, I think both parents decision is crucial for the birth of the child, not just the mothers.



A frozen fund sounds like a good idea, especially where the mother has proof where she spends money. +1 for this.


Have Some sort of legal contract agreement to decide abortion or not beforehand obviously...


In regards to women that are lying and being deceptive, I say take their child of them and father should get complete choice of how much responsibility he wants over the child or whether he wants to walk away.


Welcome to the real world, where men don't have any rights and get screwed every time.
Unfortunately for men the very second your sperm leaves the tip of your 'stick' you have no absolutely no rights over what unfolds next.

I honestly feel sorry for guys today. I would personally only respectfully have unprotected sex within the consensus of marriage, with full prior agreement, planning and explicit consent from us BOTH (i.e. not just me) that we wanted to bring a human being into this world and start our own little tribe If I didn't have his explicit consent to use half of his DNA to create a child I can't expect him to stick around and be the perfect daddy. Nor should the state be obliged to play the role of the daddy.
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ubi1
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(Original post by jazjaz)
Unfortunately for men the very second your sperm leaves the tip of your 'stick' you have no absolutely no rights over what unfolds next.

I honestly feel sorry for guys today. I would personally only respectfully have unprotected sex within the consensus of marriage, with full prior agreement, planning and explicit consent from us BOTH (i.e. not just me) that we wanted to bring a human being into this world and start our own little tribe If I didn't have his explicit consent to use half of his DNA to create a child I can't expect him to stick around and be the perfect daddy. Nor should the state be obliged to play the role of the daddy.
That's true if there is anybody who is oppressed in the west then its the men not women, women may be oppressed else where but in the west men certainly have it harder.
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DorianGrayism
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(Original post by ubi1)


I would much rather put tax payer/benefits for child support, do you have any idea how many men's life's have been ruined due to excess child support?
I don't care. The Tax Payer isn't there to pay for for a dumb man's mistakes.
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Wade-
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(Original post by DorianGrayism)
I don't care. The Tax Payer isn't there to pay for for a dumb man's mistakes.
Why is an accidental pregnancy a mans mistake? Isn't two peoples mistake?


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DorianGrayism
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(Original post by Wade-)
Why is an accidental pregnancy a mans mistake? Isn't two peoples mistake?


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Or a woman's.

He was specifically talking about men so I said man in the answer
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41b
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(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Or a woman's.

He was specifically talking about men so I said man in the answer
Yeah I get the impression you're just a hipster white knight trying to prove his woman defending credentials by debasing your gender. You haven't made a single convincing argument in this entire thread and throw vitriol at people debating respectfully with you for getting tired of your nonsense and walking away.

Incase you haven't noticed, no woman has approached you for sex.

White knights - the fake men.
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DorianGrayism
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(Original post by 41b)
Yeah I get the impression you're just a hipster white knight trying to prove his woman defending credentials by debasing your gender. You haven't made a single convincing argument in this entire thread and throw vitriol at people debating respectfully with you for getting tired of your nonsense and walking away.

Incase you haven't noticed, no woman has approached you for sex.

White knights - the fake men.
Well, no need to lie. I haven't thrown any vitriol at anyone in this thread.

Your comment is a bit odd anyway, since you have decided to the same thing.

Lol. I am not particularly interested in women........Men will do fine for me.
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41b
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(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Lol. I am not particularly interested in women........Men will do fine for me.
Ah I see. You're a woman. It all makes sense now.

By the way, 74% of taxation in this country is a net transfer from Men to Women. So it will not be you paying for your mistakes, but a man bailing you out, at the threat of imprisonment.
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Wade-
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(Original post by 41b)
Ah I see. You're a woman. It all makes sense now.

By the way, 74% of taxation in this country is a net transfer from Men to Women. So it will not be you paying for your mistakes, but a man bailing you out, at the threat of imprisonment.
Shhhhh! Don't you know you can quote statistics that shine men in a positive light, it makes you a chauvinist pig who hates women and loves oppression


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DorianGrayism
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(Original post by 41b)
Ah I see. You're a woman. It all makes sense now.

By the way, 74% of taxation in this country is a net transfer from Men to Women. So it will not be you paying for your mistakes, but a man bailing you out, at the threat of imprisonment.
Ermm..... no... I am not.

Anyway, as fun as it has been making you look silly, I would prefer if you kept it in on topic otherwise the thread will be shut.
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