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Western Islamophobia and racism, caused the events last night, we need to admit this watch

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    (Original post by QE2)
    The term "innocent" is not used in the Quran. It says if you take a life "that is forbidden by Allah...". Therefore if it is not forbidden by Allah, it is permitted. If you read the complete passage that the quote is taken from (Sura 5:32-33) it is clear that it specifically allows the killing of anyone involved in opposition to "Allah and his Messenger". The term used is 'corruption' or 'mischief' (fasad), which includes all sorts of civil, political and religious opposition. The other term used is 'wage war' which is explained by tafsir as including such things as 'opposition, contradiction and disbelief'.

    So, we can see that the claim that Islam forbids the kind of attacks we have seen is false.

    And as usual, any condemnation has to come with a "but". This time is it "but the real victims are the poor Muslims who may have things shouted or thrown at them".
    Actually, the islamic teaching is that you are not allowed to kill anyone intentionally unless you are on the actual battle field to promote peace by defeating an oppressor!
    And FYI there are many rules of war that these killers dont abide by:
    Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers:1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)2. “Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.” (Al-Muwatta)5. “If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.” (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)6. “Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)7. “Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.” (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)8. “Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.” (Sahih Muslim)9. “No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).10. “Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)- See more at: http://1000gooddeeds.com/2012/11/20/....39nIOKaH.dpuf

    And I didnt say the real victims are muslims, ofcourse my heart goes out to those killed in Paris and I find it very sly of you to try and interpret my words otherwise! I just wanted to shed light on the consequences that follow such brutal attacks as the media has done a very poor job!
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    (Original post by samcharles)
    Actually, the islamic teaching is that you are not allowed to kill anyone intentionally unless you are on the actual battle field to promote peace by defeating an oppressor!
    Ahem. They are on the battlefield with the intention of promoting peace by defeating their oppressors. Anyone who opposes or criticises Islam is an enemy of Allah. They will only stop once they have set up the caliphate and destroyed the enemies of Allah.
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    (Original post by Sales89)
    Free speech which allows our prophet to be called a child abuser, free speech on the Qu'ran being intolerant, free speech on Muslim men who have been framed by white women on 'grooming gangs' when they were innocent. Why wouldn't people want to lash out.

    I remember when I lived in Cornwall and had to contend with a huge Union Jack outside the neighbours home, he never spoke to us at all.

    The attacks last night occurred because of racism from the likes of UKIP, who want to control the boarders and disallow Muslims jobs and benefits.

    Muslims refugees have been put in concentration camps and not welcomed either.

    If people keep their mouths closed this wouldn't happen. If you are brave enough, say your Islamophobic thoughts to a Muslims face and see what happpens instead of sitting behind a screen or writing your opinions on youtube.
    You know what? YOU are the problem. So you want to overturn our history of free speech and put into place anti-blasphemy laws? You want to prevent scrutiny of religion? If you looked at a list of countries that had anti-blasphemy laws and the ones which allowed free speech, you might notice a trend in the quality of governance. This simply will not happen.

    The attacks occurred because of terrorists. Taking the blame off them and putting it on others is exactly the problem here. It's the 'moderate' support or at least apathy towards these murderers.

    You say refugees have been put in 'concentration camps' and not welcomed... how exactly do you want to handle this? It would be nice if we could magic up some more land and houses and give these people a home, integrate them into society and give them all the food they need, but that's not reality. We have finite resources, and we're now being expected to provide for people who offer us nothing in return. We don't want to keep them concentrated together because that breeds isolation, but there's a massive queue for things like housing already. Why should we put these people at the front of it? Temporary accommodation is the best that can be done in the interim.

    And, can we just take a minute to consider what you said? You had to 'contest' with a union flag? It must have been a terrible ordeal, to witness someone flying the flag of their own country, how shocking. So already you're saying we can't criticise Islam and that we shouldn't fly our own flag because you take some kind of exception to it?

    And that last paragraph sums it up. You're justifying the actions of these people because we say nasty things. Well get used to it. It's the support of people like you that enables terrorists to do what they do- without that kind of support, they wouldn't have the same kind of success.

    Furthermore, it's people like you that drive people to islamophobia. I have always stood up to people criticising Muslims for the acts of minorities, and I will continue to advocate that we support refugees as best we can, but you give people a reason to fear Islam. You represent 'moderates', yet you want to dismantle free speech, see and end to our flag and throw in your support for terrorists. The likes of you only make people more fearful, and rightfully so.
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    Have you noticed that Islam declared war on the rest BEFORE the backlash happened?
    Hi there,

    Was your question addressed to me? If so, my answer is yes, I definitely noticed that. Actually that's why I wrote that those Islamophobic attitudes also have their causes. Also I stated that I do not see this Islamophobia as the main culprit.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Ahem. They are on the battlefield with the intention of promoting peace by defeating their oppressors. Anyone who opposes or criticises Islam is an enemy of Allah. They will only stop once they have set up the caliphate and destroyed the enemies of Allah.
    No they are not! The hundreds of men, women and children killed in cold blood on Friday were not in war! They were going about their lives! They are not oppressors! Muslims live freely in France!

    You along with those killers are completely ignorant of Islamic law and I am very sad that you think Islam promotes such acts!
    Please do your research!
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    (Original post by statsman)
    Hi there,

    Was your question addressed to me? If so, my answer is yes, I definitely noticed that. Actually that's why I wrote that those Islamophobic attitudes also have their causes. Also I stated that I do not see this Islamophobia as the main culprit.
    Islamophobia may not be the main culprit, but surely we musnt allow it to continue as we live in a peaceful, tolerant and diverse society! We need to COEXIST and not let the terrorists divide us!
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    (Original post by samcharles)
    No they are not! The hundreds of men, women and children killed in cold blood on Friday were not in war! They were going about their lives! They are not oppressors! Muslims live freely in France!

    You along with those killers are completely ignorant of Islamic law and I am very sad that you think Islam promotes such acts!
    Please do your research!
    The problem is that it can be interpreted that way, but it runs deeper. The Qu'ran is written in a 'holy language' and suffers many of the problems of old-school Catholicism during the medieval era- namely that most people cannot read it and rely on someone else to translate for them. So what you'll see ranges from the truth, to exploitation based on the text to outright lies.

    This makes 'Islamic Law' somewhat irrelevant as it's not consistent. It's not so much a problem for people in this country with access to the Internet, but others will get their whole understanding of their religion from a single person, which is something that's been abused throughout history.
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    (Original post by samcharles)
    We need to COEXIST and not let the terrorists divide us!
    I'm sorry. Speaking as an atheist, I don't want to coexist with people who seek to kill me.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I'm sorry. Speaking as an atheist, I don't want to coexist with people who seek to kill me.
    COEXIST with Muslims i.e the 99.99% who are not terrorists obviously!
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    (Original post by samcharles)
    No they are not! The hundreds of men, women and children killed in cold blood on Friday were not in war! They were going about their lives! They are not oppressors! Muslims live freely in France!

    You along with those killers are completely ignorant of Islamic law and I am very sad that you think Islam promotes such acts!
    Please do your research!
    They didn't think they were at war, but they were. I'm afraid. ISIS have already made that clear. ISIS has said it is at war with the western democracies and with Moslems who resist their caliphate. I'm not sure that Islamic law is relevant between warring factions.

    (Original post by samcharles)
    COEXIST with Muslims i.e the 99.99% who are not terrorists obviously!
    Sorry. My mistake.
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    (Original post by samcharles)
    Actually, the islamic teaching is that you are not allowed to kill anyone intentionally unless you are on the actual battle field to promote peace by defeating an oppressor!
    Which verse is this? I don't recall it.

    However, the opening ayat of sura 9 contradicts your claim. After Muhammad breaks his treaties with the pagans, he gives them four months to convert or go into exile, after which "then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."

    That is clearly not promoting peace by defeating an oppressor. As Ibn Kathir puts it..."This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,"

    And FYI there are many rules of war that these killers dont abide by:
    Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers:1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.”
    Ah, but that is talking about during the battle. After the battle , anyone's fair game. After the surrender of the Banu Qurayza, Muhammad authorised the execution of hundreds of prisoners, including all boys who had any pubic hair. A woman was also killed, but it is unclear what for.

    “Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)
    What about the chap who was on Muhammad's hit-list when he took Mecca (forgotton his name). Some companions told Muhammad they had found him and he told them to kill him. They said that he was in the Kaaba but Muhammad said to kill him anyway.

    7. “Do not destroy the villages and towns,
    Sura 28:59 "And We would not destroy the cities except while their people were wrongdoers."


    8. “Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy;
    "Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home)." - 4:95.
    "lie in wait for them in every ambush" - 9:5

    “No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).
    Muhammad used fire to blind the camel thieves and murderer, and one of the companions light a fire on the chest of a Qurash leader when Muhammad was torturing him to find the location of his tribe's treasure.
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    We now have hundreds of thousands of people like the first couple of posters in this thread living in our midst. Thanks liberal elites, hope you're proud :borat:
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Which verse is this? I don't recall it.

    However, the opening ayat of sura 9 contradicts your claim. After Muhammad breaks his treaties with the pagans, he gives them four months to convert or go into exile, after which "then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."

    That is clearly not promoting peace by defeating an oppressor. As Ibn Kathir puts it..."This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,"

    [/i]Ah, but that is talking about during the battle. After the battle , anyone's fair game. After the surrender of the Banu Qurayza, Muhammad authorised the execution of hundreds of prisoners, including all boys who had any pubic hair. A woman was also killed, but it is unclear what for.

    What about the chap who was on Muhammad's hit-list when he took Mecca (forgotton his name). Some companions told Muhammad they had found him and he told them to kill him. They said that he was in the Kaaba but Muhammad said to kill him anyway.

    Sura 28:59 "And We would not destroy the cities except while their people were wrongdoers."

    "Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home)." - 4:95.
    "lie in wait for them in every ambush" - 9:5

    Muhammad used fire to blind the camel thieves and murderer, and one of the companions light a fire on the chest of a Qurash leader when Muhammad was torturing him to find the location of his tribe's treasure.
    You have failed to give adequate evidence, you cant qoute verses out of context...for e.g the verse where its talking about destroying cities is referring to God Himself destroying a nation not muslims!

    I dont have time to refute all your baseless points, but you do need to do a lot more research into authentic sources before thinking of random events you have seen on anti-muslim sites, if you are interested in knowing where the true muslims stand watch this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYbS...ature=youtu.be
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    No doubt the OP would claim "ISIS are not muslims" when the situation suits.
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    (Original post by IslamistheTruth)
    "say your Islamophobic thoughts to a Muslims face and see what happpens"

    There it is.
    What happens exactly? Does he grab an AK47 and fire at infidels attending a rock concert or eating a pizza in revenge or something?

    Oh wait...
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    (Original post by samcharles)
    You have failed to give adequate evidence, you cant qoute verses out of context...for e.g the verse where its talking about destroying cities is referring to God Himself destroying a nation not muslims!
    If it's fine for the most merciful and just god to destroy towns full of disbelievers, why is his messenger not allowed to?

    I dont have time to refute all your baseless points,
    Perhaps you should find the time, otherwise people may think that you are unable to refute them

    BTW, it took me about 5 minutes to make those points as I am pretty familiar with the contents of the Quran and relevant hadith.

    but you do need to do a lot more research into authentic sources before thinking of random events you have seen on anti-muslim sites,
    I don't go on any partisan websites. I only use my copies of the Quran, hadith and tafsir.

    BTW, if "anti-Islam" (not anti-Muslim) sites are not allowed, then likewise, "pro-Isam" stes are similarly forbidden as source material. Wouldn't you agree?
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    (Original post by samcharles)
    You have failed to give adequate evidence, you cant qoute verses out of context...for e.g the verse where its talking about destroying cities is referring to God Himself destroying a nation not muslims!

    I dont have time to refute all your baseless points, but you do need to do a lot more research into authentic sources before thinking of random events you have seen on anti-muslim sites, if you are interested in knowing where the true muslims stand watch this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYbS...ature=youtu.be
    What you mean is you can't.

    If you have anything to contribute do so. For a point to be baseless it must be refuted. You have not done this,.
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    (Original post by richpanda)
    Not sure if a troll or retarded...
    Both
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    (Original post by QE2)
    If it's fine for the most merciful and just god to destroy towns full of disbelievers, why is his messenger not allowed to?

    Perhaps you should find the time, otherwise people may think that you are unable to refute them

    BTW, it took me about 5 minutes to make those points as I am pretty familiar with the contents of the Quran and relevant hadith.

    I don't go on any partisan websites. I only use my copies of the Quran, hadith and tafsir.

    BTW, if "anti-Islam" (not anti-Muslim) sites are not allowed, then likewise, "pro-Isam" stes are similarly forbidden as source material. Wouldn't you agree?
    Can you please watch the video as I think it explains the whole concept well with regards to the islamic view on terrorism....
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    (Original post by samcharles)
    Can you please watch the video as I think it explains the whole concept well with regards to the islamic view on terrorism....
    Sorry, I can't watch Dawah Man. I have tried, but his delivery is so annoying that I have to turn off. He is also usually full of ****.

    As you understand his argument, could you present it in a few short paragraphs, and I will address it.
    Thanks
 
 
 
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