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Feminist reaction to kesha contract trial shows why it's scary to be accused of rape. watch

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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    The more I look at the question the more I realise it isn't fit for purpose anyway. You can penetrate, with your penis, the mouth anus or vagina of another without their consent or when they lack the ability to consent and still not be a rapist. So to use all of the people who answer yes to this question to create a number of rape victims is nonsensical


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    Umm what?
    You used the '40% of domestic abuse victims are men' statistic from the BCS.
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    What is wrong with the title of my thread? It drew you here did it not? so what are you complaining about?
    It's calling out feminism as being wrong for something which hasn't been proved or disproved.

    (Original post by Mancini)
    Your question about Zayn Malik and his contract release has been asked by others and I will give you a simple answer which if you just done a bit of your own research you would find.

    Zayn Malik was released from his contract on Syco onto RCA recordings because allegedly the 50% owner of the Syco Music label helped him or perhaps the word is allowed him to move on, that owner being Mr Simon Cowell.

    ''Speaking with TMZ, Malik said, “Thank you, Simon” after Cowell negotiated Malik’s new solo contract with RCA. ''

    It's easy to change companies when you have a helpful manager like Simon Cowell isn't it.

    http://www.hollywoodtake.com/zayn-ma...e-1d-and-89180

    ''Simon Cowell, who signed One Direction to his label Syco, congratulated Zayn on his new deal.
    He tweeted: "We have been working on this for a while and I am pleased to say congratulations to Zayn Malik on signing with RCA Records.
    "I believe they are the perfect label for Zayn Malik's solo career and I am sure whatever they release together will be special."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...-one-direction
    I don't really get what you're trying to prove here. Simon Cowell was extremely helpful in helping him leave the group, so are you trying to say Luke is just being unhelpful and irritating for not helping Kesha try and pursue a better career.

    (Original post by Mancini)
    Why people keep bringing up Zayn Malik in relation to Kesha I really don't know it's a bit lazy the situations are not even the same they just happen to both be singers.
    Didn't know anyone else had mentioned this (I've not bothered reading the thread). They are alike because both are getting/have got out of contracts that they do not want to be in to try and get a better career.

    Surely, if Kesha wants to be free, she should be given the opportunity.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Rape isn't really about consent, even if someone isn't consenting or lacking the capacity to consent, if you can demonstrate you reasonably believed they were consenting then it isn't rape. Congratulations for showing your lack of understanding of an offence you're arguing over


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    Oh wow. Wow. Wow.

    Yes of course rape is about consent. If you can demonstrate reasonable belief that's a defense but what do you have to demonstrate reasonable belief in? Oh yeah 'CONSENT!'
    Furthermore the statute says 'reasonable belief in all the circumstances including any steps the defendant took to ascertain consent'. The number of instances in which there was not consent, but the defendant reasonably believed there were are very very low.
    Although you're probably the type who victim blames and feels if a woman is drunk it's her own fault.

    Further to that, the chances of their being reasonable belief when consent was not given are minimal at best. If you have sex with someone when they are unconscious, that's not reasonable belief. If you have sex with someone when they are so drunk they can't formulate a yes, that's not reasonable belief.

    The case law has made it absolutely clear that silence and submission do not count as consent so the idea someone can get reasonable belief from such is nonsense.


    You're beyond clutching at straws here, you're clinging to anything in an attempt to minimise and delegitimize women's experiences of rape.
    You're accusing the survey of being invalid with no reason, despite the fact you've used figures from the survey before to try and support your own point.
    Now you are saying rape isn't about consent. I take it you've never studies law, nor ever witnessed a rape trial first hand. You have absolutely no idea.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    All these poor deluded men and women who weren't actually raped just feel like they were - we're so lucky you're here to explain how wrong we are :rolleyes:

    There's a straw over there that you can grab on to if you get tired of demonstrating you're bias with this one.
    He's actually now saying rape isn't about consent.
    The lengths he'll go to, to de-legitmize rape victims' experiences is truly astounding.
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    (Original post by Craig1998)
    It's calling out feminism as being wrong for something which hasn't been proved or disproved.



    I don't really get what you're trying to prove here. Simon Cowell was extremely helpful in helping him leave the group, so are you trying to say Luke is just being unhelpful and irritating for not helping Kesha try and pursue a better career.



    Didn't know anyone else had mentioned this (I've not bothered reading the thread). They are alike because both are getting/have got out of contracts that they do not want to be in to try and get a better career.

    Surely, if Kesha wants to be free, she should be given the opportunity.
    Modern feminism is wrong full stop!

    Not simply talking of the thread speaking in general from websites/ forums on the kesha contract.

    No Kesha can't just be free, whether she's out of the contract or not is upto the management of the record company and clearly they do not feel she has paid her dues. Also please don't use the word free it's an insult to people who suffered slavery she signed a record contract it's not slave labour she must respect the contract rules.

    If people really want to keep comparing Kesha to Zayne look at the fact that Kesha has only recorded 2 albums Zayn in his time as a One Direction band member did 5 albums perhaps that's why his company did not mind letting him go. Also grow up, you don't change a contract because you want to cry and lie about people. This reminds me of when girls wake up and regret sex then cry rape, Kesha has regretted the contract now she's crying rape.
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    Just out of curiosity, did the women that posted in support of ke$ha of the social media sites, the ones you have read mancini, all explicitly state they were feminists? or are you understanding that implicitly or because they are women?
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    Modern feminism is wrong full stop!
    Right = Trying to create social equality between men, women and other genders.
    Wrong = Making it so women are better than men (or vice versa), or trying to use feminism for bad.

    This isn't using feminism, this is people supporting Kesha. How about we don't support anyone of the same gender. Women now cannot support Malala, the girl shot in the head for wanting an education, thats how absurd you sound. How about people not supporting people at all, oh wait, were doing that with the refugees in Europe and trying to leave it to the EU by leaving.

    (Original post by Mancini)
    No Kesha can't just be free, whether she's out of the contract or not is upto the management of the record company and clearly they do not feel she has paid her dues. Also please don't use the word free it's an insult to people who suffered slavery she signed a record contract it's not slave labour she must respect the contract rules.
    Did Kesha even know what she was going in for when she signed the contract. Lets be honest, if you get a contract asking which effectively gives you money for 'singing' (she was a pretty blatant autotune user), you're going to take that. Maybe she didn't consider the consequences and if Luke did rape her, of course she'd want to get out of the contract.

    Also, I'm using the word free because it is correct in this context, she wants to be free of her contract; the second point there is a non-argument trying to make me look like I hate the freeing of slaves.

    (Original post by Mancini)
    Also grow up, you don't change a contract because you want to cry and lie about people. This reminds me of when girls wake up and regret sex then cry rape, Kesha has regretted the contract now she's crying rape.
    Are we not allowed to regret our mistakes, are we supposed to go through life where we cant change things that are gone wrong? She's made some sort of mistake signing this contract and so she wants to be free from it. How do we know she isn't suffering from physical abuse because of Luke?

    What you're saying here is plain wrong and you need to come off TSR for a bit. There are a minority of people who claim to be victims of rape and then are found to be lying. But what you're doing here is assuming the victim is lying regardless of the scenario. The system assumes people are innocent until proven guilty, and this works for both the victim and the alleged offender.
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    Article on The Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...n-proving-rape

    Direct quote: "And to all the dissenters who want a woman to prove she was raped, the burden of proof should be with you to prove she wasn’t."

    Terrifying.
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    (Original post by Craig1998)
    Right = Trying to create social equality between men, women and other genders.
    Wrong = Making it so women are better than men (or vice versa), or trying to use feminism for bad.

    This isn't using feminism, this is people supporting Kesha. How about we don't support anyone of the same gender. Women now cannot support Malala, the girl shot in the head for wanting an education, thats how absurd you sound. How about people not supporting people at all, oh wait, were doing that with the refugees in Europe and trying to leave it to the EU by leaving.



    Did Kesha even know what she was going in for when she signed the contract. Lets be honest, if you get a contract asking which effectively gives you money for 'singing' (she was a pretty blatant autotune user), you're going to take that. Maybe she didn't consider the consequences and if Luke did rape her, of course she'd want to get out of the contract.

    Also, I'm using the word free because it is correct in this context, she wants to be free of her contract; the second point there is a non-argument trying to make me look like I hate the freeing of slaves.



    Are we not allowed to regret our mistakes, are we supposed to go through life where we cant change things that are gone wrong? She's made some sort of mistake signing this contract and so she wants to be free from it. How do we know she isn't suffering from physical abuse because of Luke?

    What you're saying here is plain wrong and you need to come off TSR for a bit. There are a minority of people who claim to be victims of rape and then are found to be lying. But what you're doing here is assuming the victim is lying regardless of the scenario. The system assumes people are innocent until proven guilty, and this works for both the victim and the alleged offender.
    Ignorance is not really a defence unless you are like underage and even then it can be argued it's not a defence. I am not gonna bother commenting on your first paragraph it's once again out of topic with the thread.

    I have a small sympathy with Kesha if she regrets the contract but not totally, she was an adult woman who chose to go into business with this record company in an age when singers can literally get big without having to sign these one sided contracts. One of the most famous singers Josh Stone even brought herself out of her contract possibly because of the restrictions placed on her.

    What I am saying is my view and if you don't like it , this doesn't really bother me. I am here to give my honest views and affect people in positive ways, not to be PC.

    That last part I highlighted in bold which you wrote is bs, the system is not fair because the accused can have his/her name splashed all over the papers while the victim stays hidden. Of course in this case both accuser and accused have their names in the media perhaps because the trial is primarily about a contract rather then about rape. We both know it's not usually like that and the accused usually has to deal with people casting guilty judgements on them before the trial has even started.

    The so called victim is not a victim until proven in a court of law, until it's proven they are just the accuser.
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    (Original post by Craig1998)
    It's calling out feminism as being wrong for something which hasn't been proved or disproved.



    I don't really get what you're trying to prove here. Simon Cowell was extremely helpful in helping him leave the group, so are you trying to say Luke is just being unhelpful and irritating for not helping Kesha try and pursue a better career.



    Didn't know anyone else had mentioned this (I've not bothered reading the thread). They are alike because both are getting/have got out of contracts that they do not want to be in to try and get a better career.

    Surely, if Kesha wants to be free, she should be given the opportunity.
    Yet lots of feminists want him in jail over it despite it not been proved and little to no evidence that is scary.

    That goes against all of contract law, if she didn't want the contract she didn't have to sign it there is freedom of contract.
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    (Original post by Craig1998)
    Never knew that. But since nobody would ever consider lying under oath Luke must be completely innocent.
    Well if she had enough evidence he would have been taken to court over it already, however this is not the case. And even if a case was brought up, her deposition would be used evidence. If she was lying in that she could then be tried on an account of perjury which is the US is felony and can have a penalty upto 5 years.

    But why would she lie in a court of law that she wasn't raped?
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    (Original post by danie98)
    Just out of curiosity, did the women that posted in support of ke$ha of the social media sites, the ones you have read mancini, all explicitly state they were feminists? or are you understanding that implicitly or because they are women?
    Hello It was a definite feminist facebook page, so yes they were feminists. The two other sites were just general news sites but even there you get similar comments from women.
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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    Article on The Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...n-proving-rape

    Direct quote: "And to all the dissenters who want a woman to prove she was raped, the burden of proof should be with you to prove she wasn’t."

    Terrifying.
    Damn, you got there first.

    Not sure what is more terrifying: the quoted statement or the absolute unreadable dog's dinner that is the article.

    "If I were a rapper I’d do a bit about how beautiful I find the law. “Innocent till proven guilty,” I’d start confidently, before panicking about the rhyme – duvets are quilty? The Scottish are kilt-y? “Freedom tastes as good as fruit tea.” Saved it. “UK law is built on sanest reason.” I’m doing some great arm movements now – “better guilty freed than innocent in prison”. Uh oh, the crowd is booing. I don’t think the world is ready for my non-scanning, fruit-tea complimenting freestyle about justice. And I hadn’t got to the important part, the bit about how the law is failing victims of sexual assault.

    Yeah, sorry if you thought this was all going to be about rapping because it’s not.

    It’s horribly easy to empathise with a woman who is financially trapped with her abuser. You might imagine a trafficked woman and her pimp, a sweatshop slave and cruel boss, a rape survivor and David Cameron"

    And to think I used to say Jessica Valenti was bad. Come back, all is forgiven...
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Oh wow. Wow. Wow.

    Yes of course rape is about consent. If you can demonstrate reasonable belief that's a defense but what do you have to demonstrate reasonable belief in? Oh yeah 'CONSENT!'
    Furthermore the statute says 'reasonable belief in all the circumstances including any steps the defendant took to ascertain consent'. The number of instances in which there was not consent, but the defendant reasonably believed there were are very very low.
    Although you're probably the type who victim blames and feels if a woman is drunk it's her own fault.

    Further to that, the chances of their being reasonable belief when consent was not given are minimal at best. If you have sex with someone when they are unconscious, that's not reasonable belief. If you have sex with someone when they are so drunk they can't formulate a yes, that's not reasonable belief.

    The case law has made it absolutely clear that silence and submission do not count as consent so the idea someone can get reasonable belief from such is nonsense.


    You're beyond clutching at straws here, you're clinging to anything in an attempt to minimise and delegitimize women's experiences of rape.
    You're accusing the survey of being invalid with no reason, despite the fact you've used figures from the survey before to try and support your own point.
    Now you are saying rape isn't about consent. I take it you've never studies law, nor ever witnessed a rape trial first hand. You have absolutely no idea.
    Where have I used figures from that survey?

    You can spew your tirade of emotion at me all you like but the simple fact remains I'm right. You can have sex with as many people as you want, so long as you can show you reasonably believed consent exists it isn't rape.

    The problem with discussing rape is the vast majority of people have an emotional reaction and are incapable of being rational. I've given reasons as to why I don't trust the CSEW, I haven't tried to delegitimise rape victims, you have no reason to suggest I've never studied law yet you've said all of these things because you've become emotional and irrational.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Umm what?
    You used the '40% of domestic abuse victims are men' statistic from the BCS.
    Where?

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    He's actually now saying rape isn't about consent.
    The lengths he'll go to, to de-legitmize rape victims' experiences is truly astounding.
    It's about reasonable belief in consent, not the actual existence of consent


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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Where have I used figures from that survey?

    You can spew your tirade of emotion at me all you like but the simple fact remains I'm right. You can have sex with as many people as you want, so long as you can show you reasonably believed consent exists it isn't rape.

    The problem with discussing rape is the vast majority of people have an emotional reaction and are incapable of being rational. I've given reasons as to why I don't trust the CSEW, I haven't tried to delegitimise rape victims, you have no reason to suggest I've never studied law yet you've said all of these things because you've become emotional and irrational.



    Where?



    It's about reasonable belief in consent, not the actual existence of consent


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    I'm a bit disturbed by the fact that you focus entirely on the perspective of the potential perpetrator of rape and not at all the victim.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Damn, you got there first.

    Not sure what is more terrifying: the quoted statement or the absolute unreadable dog's dinner that is the article.

    "If I were a rapper I’d do a bit about how beautiful I find the law. “Innocent till proven guilty,” I’d start confidently, before panicking about the rhyme – duvets are quilty? The Scottish are kilt-y? “Freedom tastes as good as fruit tea.” Saved it. “UK law is built on sanest reason.” I’m doing some great arm movements now – “better guilty freed than innocent in prison”. Uh oh, the crowd is booing. I don’t think the world is ready for my non-scanning, fruit-tea complimenting freestyle about justice. And I hadn’t got to the important part, the bit about how the law is failing victims of sexual assault.

    Yeah, sorry if you thought this was all going to be about rapping because it’s not.

    It’s horribly easy to empathise with a woman who is financially trapped with her abuser. You might imagine a trafficked woman and her pimp, a sweatshop slave and cruel boss, a rape survivor and David Cameron"

    And to think I used to say Jessica Valenti was bad. Come back, all is forgiven...
    The law is failing both male and female rape victims given that only 6% of cases lead to a conviction and 80% never reach trial. Thats before you consider that only around 15% of cases are reported in the first place.

    I know you hate feminsim and what not but please don't fall into trphe trap of belittling rape.

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    (Original post by PQ)
    I'm a bit disturbed by the fact that you focus entirely on the perspective of the potential perpetrator of rape and not at all the victim.
    Well that will be because of the wording of the offence. If someone reasonably believes you are consenting then it isn't rape regardless of whether you were or weren't.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Well that will be because of the wording of the offence. If someone reasonably believes you are consenting then it isn't rape regardless of whether you were or weren't.
    Yes it is. Rape is both a conduct and a crime. Its like saying if someone is killed but it was not murder because it was self defence that they haven't been killed. If someone has sex when they do not consent, they have been raped. There may be a defence of reasonable belief which means the perpetrator is not legally convicted of rape but nonetheless the victim has been raped. It's an act as well as a crime.

    You also ignore the reality that if proved someone was not consenting, there will almost certainly not be reasonable belief.

    The lengths you'll go to to belittle rape are astonishing. You have used statistics from the very same survey you are rejecting on domestic vioence ffs.
    You are literally clutching on to non existent straws here to belittle rape. You are saying women are lying, with no proof, now you're saying the crime isn't even about consent, which demonstrates you have no idea whatsoever about the law or reality of rape cases.

    In reality, if it is proven that there was no consent, the defence of reasonable belief is almost never succesful, because reasonable releif requires steps to ensure that the defendant was consenting. So no, if you have sex with someone who is unconscious, that's not a reasonable belief.
    You haven no valid reason to doubt the survey, which you've used before.You said 40% of the victims of domestic abuse are men, the only place you could have got that from is the survey.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yes it is. Rape is both a conduct and a crime. Its like saying if someone is killed but it was not murder because it was self defence that they haven't been killed. If someone has sex when they do not consent, they have been raped. There may be a defence of reasonable belief which means the perpetrator is not legally convicted of rape but nonetheless the victim has been raped. It's an act as well as a crime.
    Well yes that is true I suppose; rape has a dictionary definition and legal definition however this survey exists to determine victims of crimes so only the legal definition is relevant. Under the legal definition so long as there is reasonable belief in consent rape hasn't occurred.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You also ignore the reality that if proved someone was not consenting, there will almost certainly not be reasonable belief.
    I disagree and you have no basis for that assertion.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The lengths you'll go to to belittle rape are astonishing. You have used statistics from the very same survey you are rejecting on domestic vioence ffs.
    You are literally clutching on to non existent straws here to belittle rape. You are saying women are lying, with no proof, now you're saying the crime isn't even about consent, which demonstrates you have no idea whatsoever about the law or reality of rape cases.
    Once again, please quote where I used those statistics.

    How am I belittling rape? I think the fact that someone can make a drunken mistaken and call it rape belittles it far more than I ever could. I'm saying some are lying, I'm also saying some are mistaken. I don't have proof but its highly illogical to think that despite the fact we only imprisoned just over a thousand people for rape last year there were actually 97,000 rapes (that's the figure used by rape crisis).

    I said it isn't about the existence of consent, it's about the reasonable belief in consent. That is an indisputable fact.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    In reality, if it is proven that there was no consent, the defence of reasonable belief is almost never succesful, because reasonable releif requires steps to ensure that the defendant was consenting. So no, if you have sex with someone who is unconscious, that's not a reasonable belief.
    You haven no valid reason to doubt the survey, which you've used before.You said 40% of the victims of domestic abuse are men, the only place you could have got that from is the survey.
    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Reasonable belief isn't a 'defence', the lack of reasonable belief is part of the mens rea. You're going to need to provide some sort of evidence to say that where consent doesn't exist establishing reasonable belief is 'almost never successful'.

    For the millionth time, please quote me using that statistic.
 
 
 
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