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    Welcome Squad
    (Original post by chemting)
    You sound like Trump "they can chop heads, but we can't waterboard"

    Regardless, Machiavelli would've been proud



    Sounds like Thailand

    Edit: just Googled it, yeah its Thailand



    Cultural appropriation?

    Yet, "to house them in the UK", it requires money to be spent by the UK.

    And, in many cases, it is the wishes of the parents that their child stays in the UK instead of wasting their life in Syria. What right does the state have not to comply with the wishes of parents

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    Syria? Why Syria? Majority of the UK muslims are from Pakistan, Bangladesh and India not Syria.
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    (Original post by lNurl)
    Syria? Why Syria? Majority of the UK muslims are from Pakistan, Bangladesh and India not Syria.
    Syria as in join ISIS lol...

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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Ah, you see! This is why we need women to cover up. Also, bad thoughts can be averted by remembering Allah and praying to him for strength.
    (Assuming you're referring to the hijab) But if an individual has a hijab fetish, then covering up would surely backfire?
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    (Original post by Emperor Trajan)
    But if an individual has a hijab fetish, then covering up would surely backfire?
    Nonsense! Allah knows best, and if lustful thoughts still happen, we can just say that Allah works in mysterious ways. We mustn't deviate from the premise that he is all-loving and all-knowing.
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    Is this for real?

    If someone doesn't want to shake someone else's hand, it is their right to refuse. Which law states it is compulsory to accept a handshake? If I don't want someone touching me I have the right to say no. I can't believe what I've just read.
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    (Original post by yasminkattan)
    Is this for real?

    If someone doesn't want to shake someone else's hand, it is their right to refuse. Which law states it is compulsory to accept a handshake? If I don't want someone touching me I have the right to say no. I can't believe what I've just read.
    No law, which is why they weren't prosecuted. It's simply been raised as an issue on their citizenship application. While they've no responsibility to shake hands with their teachers if they don't want to, neither do they have a right to be granted citizenship.
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    (Original post by yasminkattan)
    Is this for real?

    If someone doesn't want to shake someone else's hand, it is their right to refuse. Which law states it is compulsory to accept a handshake? If I don't want someone touching me I have the right to say no. I can't believe what I've just read.
    Don't apply for citizenship in Switzerland then.

    I can't live without pork, so it's obvious that I won't go to Saudi Arabia.
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    (Original post by yasminkattan)
    Is this for real?

    If someone doesn't want to shake someone else's hand, it is their right to refuse. Which law states it is compulsory to accept a handshake? If I don't want someone touching me I have the right to say no. I can't believe what I've just read.
    Then read the story so you understand the context. Its perfectly fine for them to refuse, bceause its against their beliefs.

    Its also perfectly fine for the Swiss to decide people who arent willing to accept their customs and values show an unwillingess to integrate and don't fit with their ideas of good citizen prospects. On that basis say no, but find another country to join where they will fit in better. Maybe read the story again.
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    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    There are also hadiths for wife beating and child marriage, that's not to say the mainstream muslim today thinks that is acceptable... well at least i hope not.
    Source?
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    I know fancy refusing to shake someones hand.

    How petty and child like as well as discriminatory and generally backwards in attitude.

    Thank the lord the Swiss are trying to protect their culture from such idiots.
    I wouldn't shake the hand of many people on TSR, and that's generally because I dislike them.
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    I wouldn't shake the hand of many people on TSR, and that's generally because I dislike them.
    That would be your choice

    But hardly a comparable situation
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    I wouldn't shake the hand of many people on TSR, and that's generally because I dislike them.
    And whats your point in relation to the story? The child has a perfect right to show he doesnt like the teachers, just as the Swiss have a perfect right to decide they dont want people who are unwilling to respect their customs and values, as citizens?
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    In order to assimilate into a society there is a cultural minimum one must adhere to and if participating in public ceremonies - causing no harm to anybody - is part of that then it should be expected that people will go along with it in exchange for belonging to that society (this can also be applied to people within their native culture).

    However, on the other hand it is very likely that those boys did not choose to leave their birth country and go to Switzerland. In these circumstances they cannot be expected to have the social or emotional maturity to be pragmatic enough to deal with a situation requiring them to go against their early social education (especially considering the recent trauma related to their upheaval). It is also true that it is not fair for someone of any age to be forced to leave their home culture and - clearly - fitting in with another that goes against ones's ways of life must be very challenging.

    I therefore do not think that these expectations for levels of assimilation should be applied to minors. Furthermore, it seems reasonable to give adults an adaptation period of, say, five to ten years after which they can be considered for permanent citizenship. In the meantime, why not accord them all the rights of citizenship if they meet the asylum criteria.

    Understandably, it was possibly an embarrassing incident for the officials involved however this unease could have easily been turned into an opportunity to educate the children present about diversity, pluralism, and tolerance.
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    (Original post by isitisisitis)
    lFurthermore, it seems reasonable to give adults an adaptation period of, say, five to ten years after which they can be considered for permanent citizenship. In the meantime, why not accord them all the rights of citizenship if they meet the asylum criteria.
    In this case the father (who has taught his sons this behavior) has been in the country since 2001 so he's had 15 years to adapt (or not as this case is here)

    But he's still teaching his sons they can't shake the hands of females despite this being the norm in the country.

    For this failure alone I see enough reason to deny his claim for citizenship
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    In this case the father (who has taught his sons this behavior) has been in the country since 2001 so he's had 15 years to adapt (or not as this case is here)

    But he's still teaching his sons they can't shake the hands of females despite this being the norm in the country.

    For this failure alone I see enough reason to deny his claim for citizenship
    Yes, that may be so however it is important to give the boys the chance to assimilate into the culture in their own right - in intercalation with educators, peers, and other other established members of society. It seems a travesty to condemn the boys so sharply for a parent's choices in this case (it's worth remembering that their lives may be at stake). There is a very strong likelihood that, given the chance, they will become respectful members of Swiss society or indeed, once they are able, migrate elsewhere if they wish. The priority at this stage is surely their primary wellbeing. It is important to support this process too.

    It seems that being separated from their parents at this stage may well not aid their assimilation (due to the phycological burden of such a separation) and therefore - in this case - assessing the parent again for citizenship once the boys have reached majority seems like a good option. Would it really be in their best interest to put them into state care when they have living parents?
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    (Original post by isitisisitis)
    Yes, that may be so however it is important to give the boys the chance to assimilate into the culture in their own right - in intercalation with educators, peers, and other other established members of society. It seems a travesty to condemn the boys so sharply for a parent's choices in this case (it's worth remembering that their lives may be at stake). There is a very strong likelihood that, given the chance, they will become respectful members of Swiss society or indeed, once they are able, migrate elsewhere if they wish. The priority at this stage is surely their primary wellbeing. It is important to support this process too.

    It seems that being separated from their parents at this stage may well not aid their assimilation (due to the phycological burden of such a separation) and therefore - in the case - assessing the parent again for citizenship once the boys have reached majority seems like a good option.
    No it's not if their father is teaching them this he is responsible and they are just children

    They had the chance to integrate and instead refused (the father has been in the country for 15 years so how long should we give these people before we say 'you have failed to even attempt to integrate with us so we don't want you to be part of us thank you.'

    Perhaps the children should be removed from their parents given it is their teaching that has caused this and they should be placed in a normal home to help them integrate into the society they have chosen to try and become a a part of.

    BUt as we know it's their country and their rules no one if forcing them to try and become citizens so they have no one to blame but themselves.

    But it seems some think they have a god given right to citizenship of countries they are not a part of nor even want to be a part of and the world doesn't work this way. They have no one to blame but themselves.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    No it's not if their father is teaching them this he is responsible and they are just children

    They had the chance to integrate and instead refused (the father has been in the country for 15 years so how long should we give these people before we say 'you have failed to even attempt to integrate with us so we don't want you to be part of us thank you.'

    Perhaps the children should be removed from their parents given it is their teaching that has caused this and they should be placed in a normal home to help them integrate into the society they have chosen to try and become a a part of.

    BUt as we know it's their country and their rules no one if forcing them to try and become citizens so they have no one to blame but themselves.

    But it seems some think they have a god given right to citizenship of countries they are not a part of nor even want to be a part of and the world doesn't work this way. They have no one to blame but themselves.
    I recommend that you stop theorising about asylum issues until you have done some spiritual work on yourself. You will find that when you return to it having developed your capacities of empathy things will seem much clearer.

    Here is a wonderful book just for you by philosopher Krishnamurti : http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/...telligence.pdf
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    (Original post by isitisisitis)
    I recommend that you stop theorising about asylum issues until you have done some spiritual work on yourself. You will find that when you return to it having developed your capacities of empathy things will seem much clearer.
    No theories at all just facts

    that you don't like these facts is irrelevant to the issue here

    15 years he's had and he still hasn't made any effort but still want to become a citizen with the benefits (important word here benefits) that this entails

    15 years yet still hasn't had time to learn refusing to shake a women hand is offensive to the people of the country he wants to become a part of

    But his life choices have ballsed this up for his kids. All I can say is what a **** so perhaps taking his kids off him is the best choice all round so at least they can be educated correctly
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    No theories at all just facts

    that you don't like these facts is irrelevant to the issue here

    15 years he's had and he still hasn't made any effort but still want to become a citizen with the benefits (important word here benefits) that this entails

    15 years yet still hasn't had time to learn refusing to shake a women hand is offensive to the people of the country he wants to become a part of

    But his life choices have ballsed this up for his kids. All I can say is what a **** so perhaps taking his kids off him is the best choice all round so at least they can be educated correctly
    Objective pluralism, there is no: best, right, wrong, superior, correct, proper, improper to it! Cultures are cultures - that is to say they are made up of their own rules and social patterns. As long as no one is being hurt in an abusive fashion there are no value judgements to made.

    In fact, it could be argued (although I won't argue it personally) that Swiss culture should be judged for the violence it is threatening to condemn these boys to (being sent to a war stricken country is arguably more dangerous than being refused a handshake).

    The situation with their father is the situation. It would have been probably more widely beneficial if he had been able to assimilate more however some people (particular going between certain far removed cultures) do struggle with it. I still think it would be sensible to extend his assimilation period; it would be in his boys interest to have a father figure in their lives (unless he is abusive to them, I do not know all the circumstances). Obviously informing him of this decision would be essential in order for him to be able to make informed choices about his own asylum in the long run.
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    (Original post by isitisisitis)
    Objective pluralism, there is no: best, right, wrong, superior, correct, proper, improper to it! Cultures are cultures - that is to say they are made up of their own rules and social patterns. As long as no one is being hurt in an abusive fashion there are no value judgements to made.
    The women who's hand is refused is being hurt she is being treated differently to what she can normally expect and even worse by an immigrant who wants to join her culture and reap the benefits that that entails

    and yes cultures are cultures and he want's to join a different one no on is forcing him this is his choice. He has though through his own twatishness failed the simplest of tests and this has had a negative impact on his choice

    But this is his fault and his alone

    he's had 15 years in the country and still he acts like this.

    A simple hypothetical question for you

    I am an immigrant who comes from a country where racism is the norm. I then move to the UK for 15 years and still maintain my racist attitudes. How long do you think it is acceptable for me to continue being a racist in these circumstances?
    Say for example should I refuse to allow my children to be educated by a black teacher? How long should my racism be allowed?
 
 
 
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