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Four things that unis think matter more than league tables 08-12-2016
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    She scares me :afraid:
    Stop making me out to be a monster

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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Stop making me out to be a monster

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    You're not a monster HAnwar, you're just the firm yet friendly overwatcher of the spirituality forum.
    That's not a bad thing
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    You're not a monster HAnwar, you're just the firm yet friendly overwatcher of the spirituality forum.
    That's not a bad thing
    Haha ah I like that thanks

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    The number of questions are rather rapidly increasing, Alhamdullilah, and i probably have yet to answer maybe a dozen questions.

    I have a policy where, before answering i ensure the following:

    1. I do not speak out of knowledge.
    2. If i feel i know the topic at hand, but even have the slightest doubt, i refer it to students of knowledge or take time to do further reading.
    3. I try to genuinely consider a persons points in a debate. I am here to learn, as well as answer questions. I sometimes thus, take a very lengthy period of time to mediate over a question or a point of view proposed, and really try to give it a good chance, looking at both sides of the argument.
    4. If i am emotionally in a state, where i feel due to abusive remarks across the web, i may reply in Anger, rather than with cordiality, i take a break from answering altogether.

    There has also been an issue on shiachat, which has been down for well over a week. A number of questions i have referred to students of knowledge can thus not be retrieved as the website is down, and my PM service there can not be reached or accessed.
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    I have to also add, although i understand the onus is on me to ask questions, a number of very key question i have made about salafi aqeedah , and also elements of other sunni aqeedah , have remain unanswered. To me, those are the key and crux of our entire deen.

    Not a single user here disagree's that Tawheed, and knowledge of Allah azwj are the most important tennants of faith. The first question we will be asked in our graves will be ' who is your Lord ' ?'. Having a proper aqeeda and understanding of Allah azwj comes before going into the sahaba, going into the ahlulbayt, ghadeer, imamah, fiqh , etc.

    Thus, if you are to ever convince me to abandon shia Islam, you will have to explain a number of things relating to the understanding of Allah azwj, one of the questions i have asked thus remains unanswered:

    1. If you believe that Allah azwj has feet, hands, a shin, by his essence, you have divided Allah azj into constituent subunits. However, we know that Allah is one, and can not be divided. Consider if i said - i am going to worship the feet of Allah azwj. Can one not see the logical absurdity in that? It would not be shirk, because i would still not be worshipping any other than Allah azwj, since his feet are an attribute of his essence according to salafi's, and thus, are still him.

    Furthermore, created, contingent things are composed of different parts, with different properties. Allah azwj is free of need to be divided into compartments, whereby he uses parts of his essence to carry out tasks. He merely says be and it is.

    The principle and virtue of Tawheed is in the belief of the oneness of Allah azwj, and the fact he is Ahad, and can not be divided.

    Secondly, according to authentic ahadith by the standards of some of the most prominent muhaddiths, verified by islamqa, and the salafi aqeedah, Allah azwj's two feet are above the qursi, but below the waters, and below the throne. How can one say that Allah azwj's two feet are in one place, and he rest of him is above the throne above the seaven heavens ?

    Even if you believe in abandoning logic, surely Allah azwj can not be contained in his creation. Is the Qursi and Waters not creation? And therefore, you can not say Allah azwj's feet are under the waters but above the qursi (foot-stool).

    Allah azwj also existed before a 'where' and before place. Therefore, in my view, it is wrong to ask 'where is Allah azwj'. The question of 'where' does not apply to him. He is eternal in his existence, in eternally in an unchanging state.

    The only way anybody is able to reconcile the belief that Allah azwj's two feet are between the qursi and the waters, and also claim Allah azwj is not contained between his creation, is by abandoning logic (and claiming that one should not use their minds).

    You see, i also believe one can never comprehend Allah azwj, and there are parts of Aqeedah the human mind can not comprehend, Allah azwj being one of them.

    But there is a clear difference between that, and making contradictory statements in Aqeedah that in my view, in the view of a number of ulema from the ahlus-sunnah, as well as the ashari's and other groups, destroy Tawheed.

    The only way one is ever able to get to grips with what i have asked is by deciding to abandon the discussion, abandon using logic, and simply believing in it.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    The number of questions are rather rapidly increasing, Alhamdullilah, and i probably have yet to answer maybe a dozen questions.

    I have a policy where, before answering i ensure the following:

    1. I do not speak out of knowledge.
    2. If i feel i know the topic at hand, but even have the slightest doubt, i refer it to students of knowledge or take time to do further reading.
    3. I try to genuinely consider a persons points in a debate. I am here to learn, as well as answer questions. I sometimes thus, take a very lengthy period of time to mediate over a question or a point of view proposed, and really try to give it a good chance, looking at both sides of the argument.
    4. If i am emotionally in a state, where i feel due to abusive remarks across the web, i may reply in Anger, rather than with cordiality, i take a break from answering altogether.

    There has also been an issue on shiachat, which has been down for well over a week. A number of questions i have referred to students of knowledge can thus not be retrieved as the website is down, and my PM service there can not be reached or accessed.
    No problem :yy:

    I was starting to think they IP banned me as a wahabi or something :lol: But at least everyone is facing this problem and not just me
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    To summarise, asking about wilayah or bidah are all good topics, and legitimate. But surely, Tawheed absolutely trounces these issues in terms of importance.

    If you say Allah azwj can not be divided, and then say he is made up of the hands, shin, feet, fingers, (even if they are not like ours), you have made two contradictory statements. And if you believe he can be divided, than you have made Allah azwj contingent, for the creation are divided into subunits, and Allah azwj is one, in his unified and absolute oneness. Furthermore, if i worship the fingers of Allah azwj, the hands, or any one part of him, i am still worshipping Allah azwj - it thus presents with an immense problem.

    If you say Allah azwj is not in his creation or between his creation, but outside his creation, and then say the feet of Allah azwj are above the foot-stool (qursi) but below the waters, you again, make two contradictory statements. If you choose to not hold this belief, then you must question how it has been authenticated, the books it has come from, and those who have narrated it in the Isnad, as well as the ulema who have preached that belief.

    You see, Aqeedah, and belief in Allah azwj, is perhaps the most pertinent issue of our entire lives and existence. There is no doubt about it. If the madhab of the Ahlulbayt of Muhammed s.a.w, and his Sunnah as deemed authentic by us, taught these things, it would be an enormous problem.

    You see, i had already before even finding out the shia position on these issues, made the conclusions that Allah azwj can not be divided, that he can not be in his creation, that he can not be contained in location. I remember in the summer of 2013, when i curiously sought to see our actual positon on these issues, to find that the ahadith like-for-like matched fitrah, the Quran, Sunnah, and a rational understanding on these matters.

    Allah azwj himself is beyond reason and rationality. However, through reason, the Quran and Sunnah we can clearly derive what Allah azwj is not.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Haha ah I like that thanks

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    Your superhero name can be Spiderwoman
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Your superhero name can be Spiderwoman
    Watch yourself

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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    To summarise, asking about wilayah or bidah are all good topics, and legitimate. But surely, Tawheed absolutely trounces these issues in terms of importance.

    If you say Allah azwj can not be divided, and then say he is made up of the hands, shin, feet, fingers, (even if they are not like ours), you have made two contradictory statements. And if you believe he can be divided, than you have made Allah azwj contingent, for the creation are divided into subunits, and Allah azwj is one, in his unified and absolute oneness. Furthermore, if i worship the fingers of Allah azwj, the hands, or any one part of him, i am still worshipping Allah azwj - it thus presents with an immense problem.

    If you say Allah azwj is not in his creation or between his creation, but outside his creation, and then say the feet of Allah azwj are above the foot-stool (qursi) but below the waters, you again, make two contradictory statements. If you choose to not hold this belief, then you must question how it has been authenticated, the books it has come from, and those who have narrated it in the Isnad, as well as the ulema who have preached that belief.

    You see, Aqeedah, and belief in Allah azwj, is perhaps the most pertinent issue of our entire lives and existence. There is no doubt about it. If the madhab of the Ahlulbayt of Muhammed s.a.w, and his Sunnah as deemed authentic by us, taught these things, it would be an enormous problem.

    You see, i had already before even finding out the shia position on these issues, made the conclusions that Allah azwj can not be divided, that he can not be in his creation, that he can not be contained in location. I remember in the summer of 2013, when i curiously sought to see our actual positon on these issues, to find that the ahadith like-for-like matched fitrah, the Quran, Sunnah, and a rational understanding on these matters.

    Allah azwj himself is beyond reason and rationality. However, through reason, the Quran and Sunnah we can clearly derive what Allah azwj is not.
    These are my ponderings on this matter now:

    If one were to say "Allah is The Merciful - He bestows His mercy", you wouldn't say you are worshipping His mercy, rather you are worshipping The Merciful, and similarly one wouldn't say you are worshipping Allah's hands, rather you are worshipping Allah. Even with your beliefs that Allah's hands or face are metaphorically indicative of attributes, you would still face a parallel situation to us, and I will use an example to explain:

    Let's take the sentence "Allah created mankind by His hands", and let's assume that means "Allah created mankind using His power". From your perspective, you would be worshipping The Powerful (Allah), not the power by which He created mankind, and it is similar we would be worshipping Allah, not His hands. Allah is The Powerful, and the power is from Allah but the power is not Allah, similarly the hands are from Allah but they are not Allah.

    It is thus that Allah can have the attributes of hands, foot, face etc in a way that befits His majesty without someone having the ability to say "I am worshipping Allah's hands".

    Although I can understand where you are coming from about dividing into parts, I would again say that it is comparative to how Allah's knowledge and power and seeing and hearing and mercy are all different things but still are with Allah in His oneness. The issue of divisibility is that one is thinking of Allah in an overly literal physical way like His creation, but the position has always been that Allah is unlike His creation. This is sufficient, I believe.

    Edit: With this understanding of not being like His creation but still having these attributes, we can then reject any attempt to logically comprehend Allah's feet being physically below the water and above the kursi as this is attempting to comprehend everything in a more physical way than intended perhaps. The balance between Allah's description being literal and metaphorical is on a knife's edge, but this does not make it incorrect, rather it is a matter left by Allah and His messenger and therefore not meant to be something that we try to understand the finer details of, since it is an obscure matter only known to Him.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Salamunalaykum,

    As for insulting, and such things, this is the understanding:


    In Islam, we have the principle of basic Adhab, harmony, unity, and tolerance. As a matter of principle, just because i disagree with someone, it does not mean i begin to abuse them, and start to mock them, it is not really the proper manner in which to engage in a discussion of such a hotly disputed topic.

    We find in Nahjul Balagha: "I dislike you starting to abuse them, but if you describe their deeds and recount their situations that would be a better mode of speaking anda more convincing way of arguing" [About Muawiyahs men]
    https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-bala...ing-abuse-them


    Furthermore, in Islam, we have the princple of wanting a United Ummah. Muslims should be brothers and sisters of one another. Therefore, respect must be shown, even if one disagree's with the actions and has a different historical view point on issues, or a different theological view point, they should absolutely recognize the need to respect the symbols of the other madhab, this applies not only to shia's about sunni's, but for sunni's with regards to shia's. If muslims begin to infight, and there is secterianism, wide spread abuse of such highly revered figure's in each school, it will promote bloodshed, intolerance and hate, and cause the entire ummah to erupt, divisions to be even more prominent, and forget shia's being oppressed, it will weaken the ummah as a whole, sunni's or shia's, and strengthen those who neither want shia's not sunni's to exist.


    Yes, there is also a principle that shia's are oppressed worldwide. I have family members living in area's where they can't even openly practise their religion. I've been there, and i had to conceal my faith, out of fear of my life and safety. Why would anyone want to promote an act which would allow radicals to continue to spread hatred and intolerance in such a manner?

    With regards to asking Allah azwj to remove his mercy, it's forbidden to perform publicly. Whatever anyone does in their home/four walls, is up to them and Allah azwj. If they have commited wrong, Allah azwj will punish them. We find in shariah law, even homosexuality if commited and not brought into public view, is not something we can condemn or prosecute, or punish. I also do not promote, nor have seen in decade(s) anyone promote the l'anah of the caliphs.


    Suffice to conclude, insulting and abusing the symbols of the ahlus-sunnah is forbidden. That's clear in and of itself. And i believe for someone who revere's the caliphs, they should welcome and promote this ruling, and not those of zealouts who want to abuse them.
    It would be great if the manners of Imam Ali were actually followed.
    And I commend your efforts and efforts of the recent shia scholars who are against the public acts of cursing and insulting the companions.
    Bust sadly the vast majority of shia literature, and the vast majority of shia gatherings end up with such activities.
    And to be clean of this an work towards closing the gap with the ummah, there would literally have to be a purge on almost all of the early shia books of religion.
    We cannot deny the massive amounts of open, public and encouraged practices of cursing. Add to that the level of contempt and insults (both open and underhanded) for the companions and wives of the prophet.

    Before we get deeper into the topic I have a quick question:
    What do you think is worse just insulting someone or removing them from the mercy of Allah(la'anat), and if you have done laanat on them what else is left?As I heard one shia scholar say:
    If laanat becomes permissible then all other levels of degradation and abuse are permissible.
    And I find that to ring true.

    Now with the topic at hand.
    As I said earlier I commend all the efforts being done to combat this but the issue runs deeper and the practice is too wide spread and accepted.
    Public Gatherings/Public shows:
    - Yes we insult them:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzlipJNV1Jc#t=79.605213
    -The reward of cursing Abubakar and Umar (insultingly known as and called Jubut and Taghut الجبت والطاغوت)


    -Sending laanat on the sahabaa is proven dua. It may even get your car started again. Esp using the quadruple laanat (ie the 3 Abubakar, umar, uthman, Muawiyah). Basic jist of story:
    '' Car stopped working shia scholar uses super powerful quadruple laanat. Car starts working again. Scholar swear by the zahraa he is telling truth.''
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWre44-gUH8
    Ps this guy known as alfali الفالي is not a fringe guy. He is a well known well followed shia preacher.

    -These masses upon masses of shia who perform public laanat and insults (they have turned it into an art form)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5rHMqBOttI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykBGoKsPh9s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy0c00-z95c
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=502R5Z-AmXA
    And the thing is it doesn't just stop with the companions, we as their followers and included in your laanats and insults.
    أهل الأطماع الرضت يحكمها جاهل
    مـا يـبـرر عـارها عض الأنامل
    The people of greed/lust were happy to let an ignorant/primitive one lead them. And their shame you can't even bite your nails at.
    علي اهوايه اعله المنابر يا نذل سبّيته
    تكره الشّرف الكعبه و الصنم حبّيته
    و العبد أصنامه...قّربت أيامه
    Here Ali is (honoured) on top of the minbars. You hate the one honored by/with the ka'abah (aka Ali) And the sanam (idol) (Abubakar/Umar) You love him.
    Last line heavy Iraqi accent can't decipher 100% (And to he who worships his sanams (Abubakar/Umar, know that his time is neigh (ie our imam is coming)
    فرق بيني و بين فكرك انت ما تدناني
    منهجي القرآن و انت منهجك شيطاني
    شيعي و بحفظ الوصيه المصطفه وصّاني
    آنا للمهدي دعائي و انت للسفياني
    المهدي هاي أعلامه ...قّربت أيامه
    There is a huge difference between us you don't come close to me.
    My path is the quran while yours is the satanic path.
    I await the mehdi while you await the sufyani??!
    بيت أم الحسن انتم رحتوا اتحرقونه
    You are the ones who went to went to burn the house of Hussain's mother
    (The accusations the shia have against umar, and now holding all sunnis responsible, is this not sectarian, does this not create division.)
    ميّت و من عنده خفتوا اشلون لو كض سيفه
    يقلب الشام بأسرها و المنايه ابكيفه
    إبن ابو سفيان هوه و ما مشه بتخويفه
    و الله منكم يالنواصب راح ياخذ حيفه
    Dead and yet you lot fear him, imagine when he has a sword in his hands.
    He would turn the entire Levant upside down, and death will be as he wills (whomever he wants dead will die). By god he will take his revenge from you nasibis.
    هاي مو أول جريمه ابحقد ترتكبوها
    هند أكلت جبد حمزه و انتم اتحبوها
    نسأل احنه و الإجابه فنكم اتكتبوها
    إبن أبو سفيان جثته ليش ما اتنبشوها
    This is not the first crime of hatred you carry out.
    Hind ate hamza's liver yet you love her.
    Muawoyah body why dont you exhume it, he was not even verified to be a muslim.


    Summery: a very popular mainstream figure Bassim karbala'i (sami yusuf/mahir zein of shia) performing a very popular radad. That has sectarian hateful insulting parts.
    Bassim who is very popular and mainstream continues with this public mass laanat of the companions:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8cLEpRWE6g

    And how are people to stop these public and constant laanats when the supposed reward of laanat of the 2 sheikhs is so great:
    عن أبي حمزة الثمالي عن الامام زين العابدين سيد الساجدين عليه السلام أنه قال:
    من لعن الجبت و الطاغوت لعنة واحدة، كتب الله له سبعين ألف ألف حسنة و محى عنه سبعين ألف ألف سيئة و رفع له سبعين ألف ألف درجة و من امسى يلعنهما لعنة واحدة، كتب له مثل
    Whomsoever laanat Aljubut (abubakar) and taghut (umar) just once they will get from god 70 million rewards and have 70 million sins cleansed. And will be elevated 70 million positions higher.
    That is why you have scenes like this in the heart of najaf of laanat on the companions:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5K8WG5eWuo
    Hatred and vitriol taught to children:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NJBUwZatrY

    And I close by a reference to ziyarah (shia prayer) that contains laanat to the whole ummah (by association to the companions)(excluding the shia of course) and bara'ah of the real shias from any association/ties to the followers of Abubakar and Umar:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52cD-BpfthQ

    And this is but a drop in the ocean of what is out there tawheed.
    So why are the commands of the marji's falling on deaf ears, and isn't this culture of hate and vitriol imbeded in shia traditions and to end it would be to purge all shia literature past and present?
    How do you suggest this is to be done? And what do you say to these masses that practice these shia rituals everyday.

    Ps I will dedicate a separate post to the written materials in books including those written in major source books.

    *Those reading apologies for the wall of text, tawheed likes long posts
    My Question:
    Even though I welcome and encourage the stance taken by shia scholars of late, public laanat and insulting is entrenched in the shia path and to curb the widespread practices would mean a purge of centuries of shia literature and practices, would the public who have grown up with these practices accept this?!
    Also If you could ask the hawzas about the widespread weak and fabricated hadiths in fundamental shia sources which include divisive and sectarian hadith. Why is it that these hadiths are not shunned and removed why don't they bring together the known sahih narrations and purge the unsahih ones.
    The ahle sunnah know the mawduwat or fabricated hadiths and these are known and shunned and prevented from being circulated by the populace. Why is there no such shia equivalent?!
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    Tawheed I'd rather you face the reality and work to curb the ugly truth. Rather than brushing it simply under the carpet.
    Open public cursing/insulting events are wide spread and widely practiced. And as I mentioned earlier I commend the efforts by the likes of you and the shia scholars of late the condemn this. But it needs to go further than condemning it when encouraging material and sources are widely available (through centuries of material encouraging this) and widely propagated on shia platforms.
    This is a large gathering in Iran celebrating insulting and laanaat.


    And please do not come back with a weak/expected response of you looking up wrong sources/dodgy sources when all I have to do is a quick search and be flooded with thousands upon thousands of such activity (Even though I'm hoping to be pleasantly by you replying with better response).
    I'm hoping for a response that admits the sad reality and hopes for a better enlightenment of the masses, so that we can quickly move past this unpleasant topic.
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    Continued from the previous post and about the same topic...>

    سيد العابدين علي بن الحسين (عليهما السلام): والذي بعث محمداً بالحق بشيراً ونذيراً، ان الأبرار منا أهل البيت وشيعتهم بمنزلة موسى وشيعته، وان عدونا وأشياعهم بمنزلة فرعون وأشياعه
    Hadith: By God, the righteous are and our shia, akin to Moses and his shia(followers), while our enemy and their followers are the like of pharaoh and his followers (ie Abubarak and co are pharaoh while we are the followers of pharaoh).
    Ref of hadith:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Personally I found this hadith in my copy of Al-Rasai'il i'itiqadiyah by AL-mazindarni الرسائل الاعتقادية للمازندراني, and he referenced it from bihar al anwar vol 24 pages167-168.
    It can also be found: تفسير الصافي، ج2، ص 254, and: مجمع البيان 7 : 239 . مجمع البيان: 4/375. تفسير الصافي، ج2، ص 253, تفسير الصافي للفيض وناسخ التواريخ ج1 من احواله (ع) ص 957


    *Do you view us as deviants/ followers of pharaoh whom Allah swt describes them in the Quran as:
    وَأَضَلَّ فِرْعَوْنُ قَوْمَهُ وَمَا هَدَىٰ
    And Pharaoh led his folk astray, he did not guide them.
    الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ
    "Go to the people, of Pharaoh" He said, "who are wrongful of actions".
    And the many many other verses describing the followers of pharaoh.

    -Side note: I really seem to be having difficulties verifying shia hadiths and their grading. With other hadiths I have no issues, there is a plethora of resources, books online sources. But with shia hadith! Nothing (so far) eg tried to look for the grading of the above hadith to no avail (despite it being widely circulated on shia websites including tafseer websites). When you do find the grading please refer me to the source and author/grader.
    I will add other similar hadiths later on
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    Assalamu Alaikum :ninjagirl:
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    (Original post by h333)
    Assalamu Alaikum :ninjagirl:
    Wa alaikum al-salaam wa rahamtu Allah :ninja:
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Wa alaikum al-salaam wa rahamtu Allah :ninja:

    I had a question but since there is a queue, I will drop out for now. :tea::creep:
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    (Original post by h333)

    I had a question but since there is a queue, I will drop out for now. :tea::creep:
    Well I always ask my question, even just as a placeholder so as that I don't forget it (the gold fish that I'm)
    Mil88 might be able to help.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Well I always ask my question, even just as a placeholder so as that I don't forget it (the gold fish that I'm)
    Mil88 might be able to help.
    Thanks.


    Well my question is that why do Shias (Twelver Shias) still allow nikah al-mut'ah?

    https://youtu.be/LaoZZDfvtBo
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    (Original post by h333)
    Thanks.


    Well my question is that why do Shias (Twelver Shias) still allow nikah al-mut'ah?

    https://youtu.be/LaoZZDfvtBo
    From what I have read, belief amongst Shia is that it was not permanently forbidden before the Prophet (SAW) died. They then quote Umar (RA) saying that two types of Mutah were allowed during the life of the Prophet (Mutah Al-Hajj and Mutah Al-Nikkah) but he is banning them. They then quote either Ibn Abbas (RA) or Ali (RA) implying zinah is more widespread because Mutah has been banned. They further use a verse from the Quran to say it is permissible, rejecting the Sunni argument that it was forbidden by hadith. They quote their Imams as having allowed Mutah too.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    From what I have read, belief amongst Shia is that it was not permanently forbidden before the Prophet (SAW) died. They then quote Umar (RA) saying that two types of Mutah were allowed during the life of the Prophet (Mutah Al-Hajj and Mutah Al-Nikkah) but he is banning them. They then quote either Ibn Abbas (RA) or Ali (RA) implying zinah is more widespread because Mutah has been banned. They further use a verse from the Quran to say it is permissible, rejecting the Sunni argument that it was forbidden by hadith. They quote their Imams as having allowed Mutah too.

    Jzk for that. Hmm....I don't agree with it whatsoever as it is clear to me it is haraam. And I had a few arguments with my shia friend regarding this....she does not seem to make sense to me ....and thinks there is absolutely nothing wrong with it....although I doubt she does truly.
 
 
 
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