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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    People's refusal to look at the evidence baffles me. There is zero evidence that grammar schools increase social mobility.
    We know that in the past grammar schools did increase social mobility.

    There are two key issues. The first is numbers. A proper grammar school system selects 20-25% of pupils. That level of selection doesn't require private tutoring and other social excluding recruitment processes.

    However the other issue is more difficult to address. During the grammar schools' post-war heyday, the system was downwardly mobile as well. Other than a few private , mostly boarding, schools, most pupils who flunked the 11+ regardless of background ended up in secondary moderns.
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    Clever kids can have a bad exam day at 11 just as less clever kids can have a fluke. Many kids are late developers. Some kids are great at some subjects, terrible at others. That's why stressed schools are far better and more tailored to individual students than grammar schools.

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    I feel like I'm expected to be against them but actually i went to a (free) grammar school and I'm so freaking greatful. It was a wonderful school and a lot of people i know from there have gone on to great places. I had a lot of problems at school and if i hadn't been at a grammar school i can't imagine what would have happened. The school gave me motivation and will power to not give up and I'm still feeling the benefits now. So basically I think grammar schools have their part to play and shouldn't be dismissed as evil. I think every person should have the opportunity to go to a school which will provide opportunities that you don't get in other schools
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Clever kids can have a bad exam day at 11 just as less clever kids can have a fluke. Many kids are late developers. Some kids are great at some subjects, terrible at others. That's why stressed schools are far better and more tailored to individual students than grammar schools.
    I am afraid this is getting rather desperate and looks ideological on your part.
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    Great news. Grammar schools give a chance to intelligent kids to reach their full potential and be responded by kids like them.

    As I go to a grammar school myself, you go through things much faster and get a lot done and most teachers are very supportive.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I am afraid this is getting rather desperate and looks ideological on your part.
    How? Should we cast aside kids who have a bad exam day at 11?

    Not one person on here has given a single advantage that grammar schools have over streamed schools.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    How? Should we cast aside kids who have a bad exam day at 11?

    Not one person on here has given a single advantage that grammar schools have over streamed schools.

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    From a strictly selfish point of view I think grammar schools should exist because I wish I could have studied at one. My school was streamed yet the grades in the top set of English ranged from A* to C, even in top set some people were being held back


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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    How? Should we cast aside kids who have a bad exam day at 11?

    Not one person on here has given a single advantage that grammar schools have over streamed schools.

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    That is like saying a kid got three D's at A-Level and should still be accepted into Cambridge. Life doesn't work like that...

    Most schools have 13+ exams which give a chance to people who flopped in 11+ to go to grammar school.

    In a grammar school you are pushed to your highest, educated with kids with similar abilities. Usually mixed ability classes go slow due to unable students slowing the class down. In grammar schools, you can work at the pace you want and the kids around you will work at the same pace. Most teachers are supportive and grammar schools have better results than their local comprehensives which are usually a bit lower on average.

    Yes you have really good comprehensives but they are almost always where in the country? South. Do most people live there? No.

    Isn't that unfair?
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    (Original post by niteninja1)
    Why shouldn't intelligent children go to a school with other more intelligent children.

    My sister attends TGGS in Torbay and students from a 2hour drive away travel so they can go their.

    Let's put it this way I missed the grammar school by 2 marks because of my English (weakest subject).

    At my comprehensive school,my maths class ranged from A grade students (me) to D grade students. My maths teacher spent most of his time teaching very basic maths to the D grade students as he had to focus on getting them a C at GCSE as opposed to making sure the students with more potential got the best grades they could.

    I still got an A because I went and saw him at lunch times which he didn't have to do.

    Now I didn't get in the grammar school because of my English but other students will have similar stories.
    cool I went TGGS too! I really hated it though, all they cared about was results and when I was having some mental health problems the headteacher said that if my grades went down because of them they'd expel me
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    The reason is not genetics but nurturing. E.g. reading a lot to your infant, or not, has a much bigger role in the intellectual development of your child than "genetics".
    Got a source for that?
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    The point is at a comprehensive even when there are streamed sets. The whole academic bodies focus is everyone getting at least an C at GCSE,as if too many student go below an C they get a visit from OFSTED.

    This means that any after school sessions for instance extra maths lessons, will always be focused on the lower achieving students.

    Also even with streamed sets they are no where near grammar level. My sister who is at a grammar school takes GCSE exams at the beginning of year 10 with the aim to start A-levels at the start of year 11. A comprehensive cannot do that.

    also grammar school have more power over the students. A student who underachieves or doesn't do homework or turns up late. They don't get a detention instead they get a warning they get two of these before being threatened with expulsion, this is a really big motivator. However comprehensive schools cannot do this so the students can and will just take the detention.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    How? Should we cast aside kids who have a bad exam day at 11?

    Not one person on here has given a single advantage that grammar schools have over streamed schools.

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    Extra-curricular and sporting prospects? Grammar schools are usually known nationally and internationally as well as having noticeable alumni who can provide great experience on work/university life
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    (Original post by umar39)
    Extra-curricular and sporting prospects? Grammar schools are usually known nationally and internationally as well as having noticeable alumni who can provide great experience on work/university life
    A well my local grammar schools (2 schools 1 for each sex)

    4 students got accepted by Harvard and got all living costs travel cost and fees paid totalling £1000000 (1million). They have been the only school in the country to do this 4years in a row and only got a look in because they were a grammar school.

    Oh and the grammar school is free like all grammar schools.
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    (Original post by niteninja1)
    A well my local grammar schools (2 schools 1 for each sex)

    4 students got accepted by Harvard and got all living costs travel cost and fees paid totalling £1000000 (1million). They have been the only school in the country to do this 4years in a row and only got a look in because they were a grammar school.

    Oh and the grammar school is free like all grammar schools.
    This is, in my opinion, one of the many success stories that come from grammar schools. They are clearly functional, practical and effective in allowing all students from all socio-economic backgrounds to achieve academic excellence.

    Harvard! They must be very bright. Is your grammar school academically focused, extra-curricular focused or a combination of both? What events does your grammar school organise that you feel has benefited you, personally and academically?
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    That is like saying a kid got three D's at A-Level and should still be accepted into Cambridge. Life doesn't work like that...

    Most schools have 13+ exams which give a chance to people who flopped in 11+ to go to grammar school.

    In a grammar school you are pushed to your highest, educated with kids with similar abilities. Usually mixed ability classes go slow due to unable students slowing the class down. In grammar schools, you can work at the pace you want and the kids around you will work at the same pace. Most teachers are supportive and grammar schools have better results than their local comprehensives which are usually a bit lower on average.

    Yes you have really good comprehensives but they are almost always where in the country? South. Do most people live there? No.

    Isn't that unfair?
    Except we should give young children a chance so that when they reach 18 they can get into top universities.

    Again, I went to a state school, achieved all As and A*'s at GCSE and A Level. So how would a grammar school have helped me? If you put the work in you will do well, you don't need grammar schools.

    The reason grammar schools have better results is largely because they only online only accept bright kids, whereas comprehensives accept everyone.

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    (Original post by marioman)
    Got a source for that?
    Saw a documentary once, so not really. But I just spent half a minute googling.

    http://www.human.cornell.edu/hd/outr...d/casasola.pdf

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...power-language

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/1130131?...n_tab_contents

    And there is other nurturing aspects that all together have a bigger impact than genes (such as iron deficiency, even breastfeeding patterns has been shown to have a positive impact on IQ).
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    (Original post by umar39)
    This is, in my opinion, one of the many success stories that come from grammar schools. They are clearly functional, practical and effective in allowing all students from all socio-economic backgrounds to achieve academic excellence.

    Harvard! They must be very bright. Is your grammar school academically focused, extra-curricular focused or a combination of both? What events does your grammar school organise that you feel has benefited you, personally and academically?
    My sister goes I didn't get in but they do everything for instance her class are learning German and are going on a trip to Germany so they can practise the language in a real environment.

    Also she is in a class of 20 and is a member of the new "house" so gets a lot of 1 to 1 time with the head of house.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I went to a state school, achieved all As and A*'s at GCSE and A Level. So how would a grammar school have helped me? If you put the work in you will do well, you don't need grammar schools.
    To be fair I think there are some really godawful comprehensive schools where the teachers are useless and the resources are sparse. (I have heard horror stories with some of the ones near me in Wales, thankfully mine was a bit better if nationally still poor). There are a lot of specifics you need to know to do well in, or give yourself a good chance of doing well in, a subject: you need to know the exam board and to an extent what its syllabus demands, you need to know how the past papers are structured, you preferably need some insight into how best to answer the questions. I get the sense some people are not given the bare minimum in these regards by their teachers, and surely it is unfair that they should have to seek it out themselves and go the extra mile just to be at a decent standard. But I think this is reason for overhaul of comprehensives, rather than introduction of grammars.

    A grammar school could not have helped me either, except for perhaps doing a few more subjects at GCSE; I came top of the boys at GCSE and top of the school at A-level and never felt, in spite of the education not being of the highest standard, that I was being particularly held back; indeed, short of doing 5+ A levels, I literally couldn't have done better at that stage. They also had a "gifted and talented" group for those of us in the top 5% on standardised tests. But I recognise that this is just one school, and I am just one person, and there are plenty of intelligent people who are being shafted by horrendous standards in comprehensives. I would say that grammar schools may help some of them, though as I said I think the best answer is to look at said standards in our comprehensives.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Except we should give young children a chance so that when they reach 18 they can get into top universities.

    Again, I went to a state school, achieved all As and A*'s at GCSE and A Level. So how would a grammar school have helped me? If you put the work in you will do well, you don't need grammar schools.

    The reason grammar schools have better results is largely because they only online only accept bright kids, whereas comprehensives accept everyone.

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    Which young children are you talking about? Grammar schools accept children who want to achieve, they usually filter out the ones who want to just get a C. Don't see what's wrong with that, what's wrong with being surrounded by people who actually want to achieve and not piss about?

    You have the minority of students who want to achieve and get A*s and As, you can still go to a comprehensive and get that. But what I am saying is what does that cost you? After school work with teacher to learn A* topics or work at home? The point everyone keeps making is grammar schools have high standards, they cannot afford to have unable students as it's a burden. They slow everything down. It's not about what's fair or unfair, it's about if you want to achieve or if you don't want to achieve.

    For your last paragraph, that is obvious. And those kids are pushed. At comprehensive you are told to get a C, at grammar school your told to get an A or higher. Even though C is a pass, it's not good enough to get into places like Oxford or cambridge.

    There is no point saying it's unfair. If I missed my uni offer that's not unfair because that's my fault, I should have achieved higher for them to accept me.

    Who is to blame if you fail 11+, only yourself, you can't put accountability on someone else when you are accountable yourself. That's not taking responsibility, life isn't flowers, rainbows and sunshine...
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    How? Should we cast aside kids who have a bad exam day at 11?

    Not one person on here has given a single advantage that grammar schools have over streamed schools.
    1 More attractive staff recruitment
    2 no non-academic and few poorly behaved kids undermining the school's ethos
    3 Fewer teachers out of their depth with a range of academic abilities and behavioural responses
    4 More targeted capital spending
    5 Greater buy in to state education from elite parents
 
 
 
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