Should trans people be allowed to receive free reassignment surgery on the NHS?
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Original post by dingleberry jam
Those in need of inpatient mental health care, the elderly, drug addicts, infertile couples....
Infertile couples in most areas receive some IVF as appropriate, but this is a very expensive treatment. The opportunity cost (cost denied to others) is particularly large.
In the case of drug addicts, there are charities which support them, to help them overcome this. I do not think they should be denied NHS support, but they do have reasonable alternatives.
The elderly do receive more of the NHS budget than most sectors of society, so I'm a bit puzzled on this one.
In patient mental health care though does need more funding, absolutely can't question it. I just don't think taking the money from transition procedures is the way to do that; nor would it generate enough money to actually produce a long term change.
Original post by dingleberry jam
It's not my logic it's just where we are. If we're going to withhold treatment for the things i've been mentioning then i don't see why we shouldn't here too. .
GICs already ration and withhold treatment within their limited budget. They also use a very long pathway before surgical options are available - a substantial number of trans people will pay for their surgery privately outside the NHS because of the long waiting times.
What you're advocating is rationing the available treatment even further for very minimal benefits elsewhere within the NHS.
Again - you're attacking a very small group of people and proposing to deny them effective treatment in order to "fix" problems in the NHS elsewhere. It's quite clear that you understand that the problems in the NHS are due to poor management/restructuring by the current and previous governments and budget cuts since 2010. So why argue that services for a small group of people who already face huge levels of hatred and discrimination should be scrapped when the real enemy here is the current government?
Trans people aren't destroying the NHS - why do you think attacking them and withdrawing care from them will fix it?
Original post by dingleberry jam
So what you're saying is if one person a year wants a dolphinoplasty at £4586010 - £9891750 that's cool? Disgusting prejudice against drug addicts there btw.
I'm assuming they were referring to procedures which would actually lead to better quality of life, and reduced future problems.
These kinds of decisions are made in the NHS, and addiction is a point of contention there.
One individual needing a transplant, versus one individual needing transitional surgery - which is less expensive? Will both patients benefit? Is either patient likely to 'waste' the investment? How long have they been waiting? Etc.
Original post by Ezme39
Infertile couples in most areas receive some IVF as appropriate, but this is a very expensive treatment. The opportunity cost (cost denied to others) is particularly large.
Its around £3000 - £7000 isn't it?
Original post by Ezme39
In the case of drug addicts, there are charities which support them, to help them overcome this. I do not think they should be denied NHS support, but they do have reasonable alternatives.
In the case of drug addicts, there are charities which support them, to help them overcome this. I do not think they should be denied NHS support, but they do have reasonable alternatives.
Drug addicts are still criminalised just like we used to do with gays.
Original post by Ezme39
The elderly do receive more of the NHS budget than most sectors of society, so I'm a bit puzzled on this one.
The elderly do receive more of the NHS budget than most sectors of society, so I'm a bit puzzled on this one.
They do but have you seen the state of our care homes?
Original post by Ezme39
In patient mental health care though does need more funding, absolutely can't question it. I just don't think taking the money from transition procedures is the way to do that; nor would it generate enough money to actually produce a long term change.
In patient mental health care though does need more funding, absolutely can't question it. I just don't think taking the money from transition procedures is the way to do that; nor would it generate enough money to actually produce a long term change.
I just can't see how it can be justified when you look at the state of inpatient mental health care.
Original post by PQ
GICs already ration and withhold treatment within their limited budget. They also use a very long pathway before surgical options are available - a substantial number of trans people will pay for their surgery privately outside the NHS because of the long waiting times.
What you're advocating is rationing the available treatment even further for very minimal benefits elsewhere within the NHS.
Again - you're attacking a very small group of people and proposing to deny them effective treatment in order to "fix" problems in the NHS elsewhere. It's quite clear that you understand that the problems in the NHS are due to poor management/restructuring by the current and previous governments and budget cuts since 2010. So why argue that services for a small group of people who already face huge levels of hatred and discrimination should be scrapped when the real enemy here is the current government?
What you're advocating is rationing the available treatment even further for very minimal benefits elsewhere within the NHS.
Again - you're attacking a very small group of people and proposing to deny them effective treatment in order to "fix" problems in the NHS elsewhere. It's quite clear that you understand that the problems in the NHS are due to poor management/restructuring by the current and previous governments and budget cuts since 2010. So why argue that services for a small group of people who already face huge levels of hatred and discrimination should be scrapped when the real enemy here is the current government?
Sure they're a relatively small group but i don't see how that justifies it.
Original post by PQ
Trans people aren't destroying the NHS - why do you think attacking them and withdrawing care from them will fix it?
Trans people aren't destroying the NHS - why do you think attacking them and withdrawing care from them will fix it?
I don't, I value fairness, we should all get the same treatment from the NHS. You seem to want to give trans people preferential treatment.
Original post by dingleberry jam
Well that's the Tories for you.
once again you prove your utter lack of understanding of health economics
what the NHS needs to achieve it;s cost controls and address retention factors is a roman decimation of lay managers and so -called clinicla leaders...
Original post by dingleberry jam
Its around £3000 - £7000 isn't it?
Drug addicts are still criminalised just like we used to do with gays.
They do but have you seen the state of our care homes?
I just can't see how it can be justified when you look at the state of inpatient mental health care.
Drug addicts are still criminalised just like we used to do with gays.
They do but have you seen the state of our care homes?
I just can't see how it can be justified when you look at the state of inpatient mental health care.
That's per IVF cycle I believe, rather than a total cost. We also have huge numbers of children needing adoption, and an expanding population- so it's not just medical costs which the government would be considering.
Unfortunately, I would agree they are criminalised. However, I don't see how offering extra NHS budget changes that. Transgender people are also highly discriminated against.
True, but again, the cost per week of constant care is unbelievable. I know from family who have needed this care; it could not possibly be covered in the NHS, which is disappointing.
Another post made a valid point about how transgender people would need more mental health care without the procedures, which would again detract money from the in patient services. It's questionable how much impact redirecting this money would really have.
Original post by Ezme39
Another post made a valid point about how transgender people would need more mental health care without the procedures, which would again detract money from the in patient services. It's questionable how much impact redirecting this money would really have.
Same can be said for IVF and drug addicts.
Original post by Ezme39
Infertile couples in most areas receive some IVF as appropriate, but this is a very expensive treatment. The opportunity cost (cost denied to others) is particularly large.
In the case of drug addicts, there are charities which support them, to help them overcome this. I do not think they should be denied NHS support, but they do have reasonable alternatives.
The elderly do receive more of the NHS budget than most sectors of society, so I'm a bit puzzled on this one.
In patient mental health care though does need more funding, absolutely can't question it. I just don't think taking the money from transition procedures is the way to do that; nor would it generate enough money to actually produce a long term change.
In the case of drug addicts, there are charities which support them, to help them overcome this. I do not think they should be denied NHS support, but they do have reasonable alternatives.
The elderly do receive more of the NHS budget than most sectors of society, so I'm a bit puzzled on this one.
In patient mental health care though does need more funding, absolutely can't question it. I just don't think taking the money from transition procedures is the way to do that; nor would it generate enough money to actually produce a long term change.
and the whinging aobut NHS funded IVF comes down to a number of factors
1. it;s not given out on demand i.e. there are clinical criteria and not just that people aren;t finding it easy to concieve... people also complain aobut the investigations and evaluations prior to recieving IVF and claim it;s all a conspiracy against them
2. where it is funded only a limited number of attempts are funded
the reality is without some kind of assessment process and without rationing IVF could become a bottomless pit for funding if people were funded for dozens of cycles until they had a successful pregnancy.
the amount of money spent on the GICs and GRS is change down the back of sofa in the grand schem of things it would go nowhere in terms of addressing inpatient mental health care vs a decimation of Lay managers and alleged to be Nurse Leaders ...
Original post by zippyRN
and the whinging aobut NHS funded IVF comes down to a number of factors
I've been denied IVF, passed the clinical criteria but no limited number of attempts just straight up denied.
Original post by zippyRN
the amount of money spent on the GICs and GRS is change down the back of sofa in the grand schem of things it would go nowhere in terms of addressing inpatient mental health care vs a decimation of Lay managers and alleged to be Nurse Leaders ...
the amount of money spent on the GICs and GRS is change down the back of sofa in the grand schem of things it would go nowhere in terms of addressing inpatient mental health care vs a decimation of Lay managers and alleged to be Nurse Leaders ...
You want to fund it simply because they're a small group? We can justify all kinds of expense on wasteful **** with that logic.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by dingleberry jam
Sure they're a relatively small group but i don't see how that justifies it.
I don't, I value fairness, we should all get the same treatment from the NHS. You seem to want to give trans people preferential treatment.
I don't, I value fairness, we should all get the same treatment from the NHS. You seem to want to give trans people preferential treatment.
"The total cost to the NHS in England last year was £17.13 million and this year the budget has been increased to £22.72 million." http://www.itv.com/news/2015-10-29/transgender/
Last year the NHS spent over £400m on software and IT - and managed to "save" £348m on DH central budgets ("underspend against the Welfare Foods and School Fruit and Vegetables budgets, DH admin savings, and other central savings"). £348m SAVED by spending less on School Fruit and Vegetables Budgets...https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447002/DH_accounts_14-15_web.pdf
£23m on transition care is far too low - people are waiting 2+ years for their first APPOINTMENT (never mind actually getting counselling, HRT or surgery)...cutting that further is not going to fix the NHS and providing what is available isn't unfair.
Yes the NHS is underfunded in a lot of areas - INCLUDING trans healthcare. If you want to be involved in decision making about where funds go then get involved in your local CCG https://www.england.nhs.uk/ccg-details/ - they decide where the money goes and they are obliged to consult with the public (but usually get no interest).
If you want to fix the NHS then start writing to your MP about getting funding increased for the areas you feel are lacking.
Original post by dingleberry jam
I've been denied IVF, no limited number of attempts just straight up denied.
You want to fund it simply because they're a small group? We can justify all kinds of expense on wasteful **** with that logic.
You want to fund it simply because they're a small group? We can justify all kinds of expense on wasteful **** with that logic.
I'm sorry to hear you've been denied IVF. Am I right in thinking NICE guidance usually suggests two cycles are offered, but some areas can refute this if they do not find it affordable?
Original post by PQ
"The total cost to the NHS in England last year was £17.13 million and this year the budget has been increased to £22.72 million." http://www.itv.com/news/2015-10-29/transgender/
Last year the NHS spent over £400m on software and IT - and managed to "save" £348m on DH central budgets ("underspend against the Welfare Foods and School Fruit and Vegetables budgets, DH admin savings, and other central savings"
. £348m SAVED by spending less on School Fruit and Vegetables Budgets...https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447002/DH_accounts_14-15_web.pdf
£23m on transition care is far too low - people are waiting 2+ years for their first APPOINTMENT (never mind actually getting counselling, HRT or surgery)...cutting that further is not going to fix the NHS and providing what is available isn't unfair.
Yes the NHS is underfunded in a lot of areas - INCLUDING trans healthcare. If you want to be involved in decision making about where funds go then get involved in your local CCG https://www.england.nhs.uk/ccg-details/ - they decide where the money goes and they are obliged to consult with the public (but usually get no interest).
If you want to fix the NHS then start writing to your MP about getting funding increased for the areas you feel are lacking.
Last year the NHS spent over £400m on software and IT - and managed to "save" £348m on DH central budgets ("underspend against the Welfare Foods and School Fruit and Vegetables budgets, DH admin savings, and other central savings"
. £348m SAVED by spending less on School Fruit and Vegetables Budgets...https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447002/DH_accounts_14-15_web.pdf £23m on transition care is far too low - people are waiting 2+ years for their first APPOINTMENT (never mind actually getting counselling, HRT or surgery)...cutting that further is not going to fix the NHS and providing what is available isn't unfair.
Yes the NHS is underfunded in a lot of areas - INCLUDING trans healthcare. If you want to be involved in decision making about where funds go then get involved in your local CCG https://www.england.nhs.uk/ccg-details/ - they decide where the money goes and they are obliged to consult with the public (but usually get no interest).
If you want to fix the NHS then start writing to your MP about getting funding increased for the areas you feel are lacking.
That's lovely and everything but you're just repeating the same lets fund it because they're a small group nonsense. And 2+ years meh, thats nothing, i had to wait 10+ years for a diagnosis of crohn's.
Original post by Ezme39
I'm sorry to hear you've been denied IVF. Am I right in thinking NICE guidance usually suggests two cycles are offered, but some areas can refute this if they do not find it affordable?
Ta, something like that, thought it was still 3 though.
Original post by dingleberry jam
That's lovely and everything but you're just repeating the same lets fund it because they're a small group nonsense. And 2+ years meh, thats nothing, i had to wait 10+ years for a diagnosis of crohn's.
I'm saying the NHS budget is underresourced everywhere (including trans healthcare). Cutting effective treatment (especially for a group where denying treatment is going to put pressure on other areas of the NHS that are struggling) is a false economy and not tackling the underlying problem. It doesn't even equate to treating the symptoms and not the cause because cutting trans services *will not* treat the problems elsewhere in the NHS.
I'm sorry you waited 10+ years for a diagnosis - did you wait 2+ years to get referred to a consultant as part of that? Comparing diagnosis times with appointment waiting times is nonsense. My partner waited 10 years to get an NHS wheelchair - that doesn't mean it's not also unacceptable for someone to wait 4 hours to be seen in A&E.
Original post by PQ
No I'm not saying fund it because it is small. I'm saying because it is small then cutting it will not solve the problems you've experienced with the NHS elsewhere.
I'm afraid it boils down to the same thing.
Original post by PQ
I'm sorry you waited 10+ years for a diagnosis - did you wait 2+ years to get referred to a consultant as part of that?
I'm sorry you waited 10+ years for a diagnosis - did you wait 2+ years to get referred to a consultant as part of that?
Quite possibly, so long ago now i can't remember.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by dingleberry jam
So what you're saying is if one person a year wants a dolphinoplasty at £4586010 - £9891750 that's cool? Disgusting prejudice against drug addicts there btw.
Dolphinoplasty? Doesn't exist. Also comparing gender corrective surgery to a made up surgery, how shameful. You're clearly the prejudiced one here.
How exactly am I being prejudiced against drug addicts?
Because I said that they cause themselves damage that I have to pay for?
Sorry but that's the truth. If they chose to continue taking drugs, drinking, smoking etc, then they are choosing to do damage to themselves.
They could've gone and gotten help before they caused themselves irreparable damage that requires a transplant. The NHS puts a lot of funding into the quitting addiction services.
Drugs are a choice, being addicted is not. I understand that.
Also let's remember that gender dysphoria is a medical condition.
Being addicted to a substance is not.
There's help out there for them, if they choose to leave it until they need a transplant and are halfway dead then that's their fault.
Nonetheless they still deserve surgery, they pay into the NHS just like I do.
The fact that you are so prejudiced and hateful against transgendered people is sad. I don't know why you hate them so much.
These people have a medical condition that causes them a lot of suffering and heartache. Their surgery is one that is life changing and transformative.
If people can get breast enhancement and other cosmetic surgeries on the nhs why should a corrective surgery for a medical condition be denied?
The NHS is there for all of us and we can't exclude one group of people. We all have the right to treatment and we all pay in. They pay in so they have to right to the surgery they need. Just like we all do.
I might not always be happy with some of the NHS's choices but to deny one person's surgery open's the door to denying more and more people surgery and treatments just because someone disagrees with it.
You could argue that people with disfigurements don't need restoration surgery. That obese people don't need gastric bypasses and gastric bands. They're performed much more often than gender corrective surgery.
People don't need IVF or fertility treatments either but we still give them the treatments and surgeries because the NHS is for everyone.
The fact you are lack compassion for others is pretty damning of your character. You clearly lack empathy and understanding for others. The fact you try and make their condition sound like a joke shows you immaturity and cruelty.
Original post by NekoAngel13
Also let's remember that gender dysphoria is a medical condition.
Being addicted to a substance is not.
Also let's remember that gender dysphoria is a medical condition.
Being addicted to a substance is not.
You might want to have a little think over that one, like I said disgusting prejudice.
Original post by NekoAngel13
The NHS is there for all of us and we can't exclude one group of people. We all have the right to treatment and we all pay in. They pay in so they have to right to the surgery they need. Just like we all do.
The NHS is there for all of us and we can't exclude one group of people. We all have the right to treatment and we all pay in. They pay in so they have to right to the surgery they need. Just like we all do.
The NHS is not there for all of us, some of us are denied treatment, I wish we could offer trans people all the help they need but to do so means giving them preferential treatment.
I'm going to ignore the rest of your post, you're clearly very young and don't know any better.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by zippyRN
the trans community and mainstream feminism are not at odds, it;s only the dried up old fossils of the 2nd wave and their acoylytes that are trying to cause problems , but the 2nd wave are about as relevant to feminism in contemporary culture as trotskyites are to government or even social democratic / socialist policy making ...
but doesn't the concept of transgenderism necessarily uphold gender norms, prejudices and expectations?
Original post by Implication
but doesn't the concept of transgenderism necessarily uphold gender norms, prejudices and expectations?
No.
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